AAS/PH and Heart Problems?

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    AAS/PH and Heart Problems?


    I went in today for my pre-gyno surgery order pickup, which is on Wednesday. I ended up talking to this lady nurse and she gave me this 15 minute speech on how AAS is bad for your heart muscles and heart valves, and how Arnold S had to get a heart valve replacement?

    Does anybody have any thoughts on this? And does this include AAS like Anavar and such that are often prescribed?

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    Ask her to show you studies..or at least more evidence than "she heard Arnold had valve surgery."
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    I heard the samething. all of the docs talk about it but there is no real data to back it up.
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    I've " heard" a lot of things about steroids that just aren't true and can't be proven.
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    Arnold had a Bicuspid Aortic valve.. a genetic defect which required replacement..
    He also AFAIK had bypass surgery which was most likely due to high calories and saturated fats..
    Bodybuilding in nature is good for the heart, as long as cardio is combined..
    The high calorie diets can be strenuous, but I have also heard that many AAS can be stressfull on the left heart/ventricles myocardium.. however I never checked into the validity of any of this.. However it does make some sense.

    BTW Open heart surgery is practically as common today as ****ing apendectomies.. it's routine and thousands get it with no probs- it's scary idea but really NBD..
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    Yes it is bad for your heart and that is very obivious, its like saying cigerettes dont cause cancer. The difference between a doctor precribing them to you is the dosages, he is prescribing healthy normal doses, and we are taking superhuman doses to gain muscle (abuse) . You can think of it as running nitrous through an engine, sooner or later your gonna need to start replacing parts.. For some people thats worth it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by citystreets View Post
    Yes it is bad for your heart and that is very obivious, its like saying cigerettes dont cause cancer. The difference between a doctor precribing them to you is the dosages, he is prescribing healthy normal doses, and we are taking superhuman doses to gain muscle (abuse) . You can think of it as running nitrous through an engine, sooner or later your gonna need to start replacing parts.. For some people thats worth it.
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    1) Chief Physician/Senior Cardiologist, Oslo University Hospital – Aker, Trondheimsveien 235, 0514-Oslo University Hospital, Oslo, Norway

    Abstract
    Abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) has been linked to a variety of different cardiovascular side effects. In case reports, acute myocardial infarction is the most common event presented, but other adverse cardiovascular effects such as left ventricular hypertrophy, reduced left ventricular function, arterial thrombosis, pulmonary embolism and several cases of sudden cardiac death have also been reported. However, to date there are no prospective, randomized, interventional studies on the long-term cardiovascular effects of abuse of AAS. In this review we have studied the relevant literature regarding several risk factors for cardiovascular disease where the effects of AAS have been scrutinized:
    (1) Echocardiographic studies show that supraphysiologic doses of AAS lead to both morphologic and functional changes of the heart. These include a tendency to produce myocardial hypertrophy (Fig. 3), a possible increase of heart chamber diameters, unequivocal alterations of diastolic function and ventricular relaxation, and most likely a subclinically compromised left ventricular contractile function. (2) AAS induce a mild, but transient increase of blood pressure. However, the clinical significance of this effect remains modest. (3) Furthermore, AAS confer an enhanced pro-thrombotic state, most prominently through an activation of platelet aggregability. The concomitant effects on the humoral coagulation cascade are more complex and include activation of both pro-coagulatory and fibrinolytic pathways. (4) Users of AAS often demonstrate unfavorable measurements of vascular reactivity involving endothelial-dependent or endothelial-independent vasodilatation. A degree of reversibility seems to be consistent, though. (5) There is a comprehensive body of evidence documenting that AAS induce various alterations of lipid metabolism. The most prominent changes are concomitant elevations of LDL and decreases of HDL, effects that increase the risk of coronary artery disease. And finally, (6) the use of AAS appears to confer an increased risk of life-threatening arrhythmia leading to sudden death, although the underlying mechanisms are still far from being elucidated. Taken together, various lines of evidence involving a variety of pathophysiologic mechanisms suggest an increased risk for cardiovascular disease in users of anabolic androgenic steroids.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...m&ordinalpos=1
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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

    acute myocardial infarction anabolic androgenic steroids
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    thanks for the citation lol.
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    Androgens will have more sides due to their effects on BP, increased VAT, etc. However, there is a huge difference between use and abuse and it is very difficult to make a definition for it. Everyone always brings up Arnold, but what about all of the other BBers from that era such as Columbu, Zane, Pearl, Draper, etc?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    However, there is a huge difference between use and abuse and it is very difficult to make a definition for it.
    Indeed. The definition for one could be fatal. The difference is quite consequential and should not be casually dismissed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Indeed. The definition for one could be fatal.
    There are two main conditions that would steer me away from AAS: family history of hypertension and family history of early CVD. Hypertension is heavily influenced by genetics and there is little that can be done for this. AAS, even short-term, is not really worth the risk. Early CVD (e.g. myocardial infarction) is another one that would steer me away from AAS. HCM is the most common culprit and AAS can exacerbate this by increasing BP. Not coincidentally, there is a high correlation between these two conditions.
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    Yes, steroids can contribute to thickening of the heart walls with long term abuse. Most studies say it reverses within 6 months of stopping steroid use though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpfisher View Post
    Yes, steroids can contribute to thickening of the heart walls with long term abuse. Most studies say it reverses within 6 months of stopping steroid use though.
    Can you post one of these? I've never heard that HCM is reversible.
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    i'd also like to see a study showing that heart issues from aas are reversible, 6 months seems awful short too. I wonder if you kept your blood pressure and cholesterol readings normalized while on aas if these issues would still remain?
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverstop View Post
    i'd also like to see a study showing that heart issues from aas are reversible, 6 months seems awful short too. I wonder if you kept your blood pressure and cholesterol readings normalized while on aas if these issues would still remain?
    Empirically speaking, we will probably never know. Plus, having biased figures such as Dr. Gary Wadler do not help the cause.
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    wait..... steroids are bad for you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Can you post one of these? I've never heard that HCM is reversible.
    http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...-the-heart.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeInCanada View Post
    I went in today for my pre-gyno surgery order pickup, which is on Wednesday. I ended up talking to this lady nurse and she gave me this 15 minute speech on how AAS is bad for your heart muscles and heart valves, and how Arnold S had to get a heart valve replacement?

    Does anybody have any thoughts on this? And does this include AAS like Anavar and such that are often prescribed?
    all steroids have a serious impact on your cardiovascular system. some more than others, but all of them effect it.
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    That is far too vague. It doesn't have controlled dosages and/or substances. Plus, since the AAS used was from the black market, it's hard to say what effect, if any, contamination may have played.
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    Does anybody know of anything that can help reduce the risk of heart problems while on and off cycle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    all steroids have a serious impact on your cardiovascular system. some more than others, but all of them effect it.
    The is a huge body of evidence to support testosterone levels in the upper quadrant of the range actually improve cardiovascular markers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    The is a huge body of evidence to support testosterone levels in the upper quadrant of the range actually improve cardiovascular markers.
    It's a huge paradox.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    all steroids have a serious impact on your cardiovascular system. some more than others, but all of them effect it.
    you mean all of them Affect it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    That is far too vague. It doesn't have controlled dosages and/or substances. Plus, since the AAS used was from the black market, it's hard to say what effect, if any, contamination may have played.
    What? Did you read the whole article?

    "Before their cycle started the bodybuilders had their medication checked and analysed by the pharmacological department of the university." So the gear was good, and what in the world does contamination have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that, since the results were favorable reagrding LVH, contamination present in the gear may be a good thing for the heart?? Or that the possible absence of contamination proves a link between contamination and cardiac hypertrophy? What are you saying??

    Dosages are not controlled, but again, why does that matter? Gear was used, in some cases heavily. "The weekly doses varied from a few hundred milligrams to more than thousand milligrams." Since it wasn't controlled, we can't draw any conclusions between specific dosages and the results, but that is irrelevant. Far and away the most important thing here is that the LVH reversed during the wash-out period; IOW, to quote directly from the piece once again: "On the other hand, the mean steroid dose of the present cycle was a strong predictor of variables like E/A ratio, ventricular weight of relative wall thickness; ... the deleterious effects wear off during wash out periods."

    I think you're a smart dude, Rodja, but it seems to me that, since you admitted you'd never seen data about LVH being reversible, when presented with some evidence, you are choosing to ignore it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    The is a huge body of evidence to support testosterone levels in the upper quadrant of the range actually improve cardiovascular markers.
    True, although supraphysiological levels are another matter, although as I've contended, the negative effects are more or less constricted to the on-cycle time period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon13 View Post
    What? Did you read the whole article?

    "Before their cycle started the bodybuilders had their medication checked and analysed by the pharmacological department of the university." So the gear was good, and what in the world does contamination have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that, since the results were favorable reagrding LVH, contamination present in the gear may be a good thing for the heart?? Or that the possible absence of contamination proves a link between contamination and cardiac hypertrophy? What are you saying??

    Dosages are not controlled, but again, why does that matter? Gear was used, in some cases heavily. "The weekly doses varied from a few hundred milligrams to more than thousand milligrams." Since it wasn't controlled, we can't draw any conclusions between specific dosages and the results, but that is irrelevant. Far and away the most important thing here is that the LVH reversed during the wash-out period; IOW, to quote directly from the piece once again: "On the other hand, the mean steroid dose of the present cycle was a strong predictor of variables like E/A ratio, ventricular weight of relative wall thickness; ... the deleterious effects wear off during wash out periods."

    I think you're a smart dude, Rodja, but it seems to me that, since you admitted you'd never seen data about LVH being reversible, when presented with some evidence, you are choosing to ignore it.
    The reason I disregard it is that it is both a very short length study and is not controlled at all. It is a very flawed study. I agree that it is a step in the right direction, but you can hardly call this proof to the bad parameters, small scale, small population, and lack on controls. Also, let's be honest, how many people only do 1 cycle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    The reason I disregard it is that it is both a very short length study and is not controlled at all. It is a very flawed study. I agree that it is a step in the right direction, but you can hardly call this proof to the bad parameters, small scale, small population, and lack on controls. Also, let's be honest, how many people only do 1 cycle?
    In the absence of anything else, the data cannot simply be disregarded because the study was "poorly constructed". Many a study less stringently controlled than this have ended up in peer-reviewed literature.

    Further, it is clearly stated that the subjects all had a history of steroid use, ranging "from one to twelve years." Once again I must ask, did you even read the study?

    Bottom line: steroid users, using real steroids, were monoitored and studied for cardiac abnormalities. These abnormalities appreared. The abnormalities dissipated after discontinuation of use. Perhaps you can't draw anything else from the study other than that, but that alone is a compelling outcome.

    Finally, this has come up before, and I posted some other evidence in an older thread. See Phera-plex dangers and scroll to my post (#17) for some more links.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeInCanada View Post
    Does anybody know of anything that can help reduce the risk of heart problems while on and off cycle?
    BUMP!



    *Good debate here guys* haha
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    Dude. It's your heart and your health. I suggest you start to perform some research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon13 View Post
    In the absence of anything else, the data cannot simply be disregarded because the study was "poorly constructed". Many a study less stringently controlled than this have ended up in peer-reviewed literature.

    Further, it is clearly stated that the subjects all had a history of steroid use, ranging "from one to twelve years." Once again I must ask, did you even read the study?

    Bottom line: steroid users, using real steroids, were monoitored and studied for cardiac abnormalities. These abnormalities appreared. The abnormalities dissipated after discontinuation of use. Perhaps you can't draw anything else from the study other than that, but that alone is a compelling outcome.

    Finally, this has come up before, and I posted some other evidence in an older thread. See Phera-plex dangers and scroll to my post (#17) for some more links.
    Yes, I read the review. I stated earlier that androgens, such as PP, have a higher risk because of their effects on BP, etc. The study suggests that the HCM may be reversible, but nothing definitive can be drawn from a single study, particularly one that is very flawed in its design.

    I highly doubt that anything of this caliber would make to a more respected journal such as the NE Journal of Medicine. Make no mistake about it, not all journals are the same quality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Yes, I read the review. I stated earlier that androgens, such as PP, have a higher risk because of their effects on BP, etc. The study suggests that the HCM may be reversible, but nothing definitive can be drawn from a single study, particularly one that is very flawed in its design.

    I highly doubt that anything of this caliber would make to a more respected journal such as the NE Journal of Medicine. Make no mistake about it, not all journals are the same quality.
    I give up. Believe what you want. You had asked for evidence as to whether LVH was reversible, I provided some. There is not much out there to definitively prove a point on either side of the debate; if you want to believe that a single cycle, or even a few cycles, will give the user irreversible cardiac damage, be my guest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    The is a huge body of evidence to support testosterone levels in the upper quadrant of the range actually improve cardiovascular markers.
    true, I should of been more specific, in supratheraputic levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyChemist View Post
    you mean all of them Affect it?
    something like that. lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon13 View Post
    True, although supraphysiological levels are another matter, although as I've contended, the negative effects are more or less constricted to the on-cycle time period.
    this is what I was saying.
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    that is a realllllly cool study. there are precious few studies of any kind that actually include steroids at bodybuilding level doses. thanks for posting that. very very interesting.
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    I have some info to add. I'll try to get it up later.

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    I've read some where that phera enlarges the heart...so it would seem the short answer is yes....
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    Characterisation of the pharmacological profile of desoxymethyltestosterone (Madol), a steroid misused for doping.

    * Diel P,
    * Friedel A,
    * Geyer H,
    * Kamber M,
    * Laudenbach-Leschowsky U,
    * Schanzer W,
    * Thevis M,
    * Vollmer G,
    * Zierau O.

    Center for Preventive Doping Research, Institute of Cardiovascular Research and Sports Medicine, Department of Molecular and Cellular Sports Medicine, German Sports University Cologne, 50927 Cologne, Germany. diel@dshs-koeln.de

    Desoxymethyltestosterone (DMT), also known as Madol, is a steroid recently identified to be misused as a doping agent. Since, the knowledge of functions of this substance is rather limited, it was our aim to characterise the pharmacological profile of DMT and to identify potential adverse side effects. DMT was synthesised, its purity was confirmed and its biological activity was tested. The potency of Madol (DMT) to transactivate androgen receptor (AR) dependent reporter gene expression was two times lower as compared to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Receptor binding tests demonstrate that DMT binds with high selectivity to the AR, binding to the progesterone receptor (PR) was low. In vivo experiments in orchiectomised rats demonstrated that treatment with DMT resulted only in a stimulation of the weight of the levator ani muscle; the prostate and seminal vesicle weights remained unaffected. Like testosterone, administration of DMT resulted in a stimulation of IGF-1 and myostatin mRNA expression in the gastrocnemius muscle. In the prostate proliferation was stimulated by TP (testosteronepropionate), but remained unaffected by DMT. Remarkably, treatment with DMT, in contrast to TP, resulted in a significant increase of the heart weight. In the liver, DMT slightly stimulates the expression of the tyrosine aminotransferase gene (TAT). Our results demonstrate that DMT is a potent AR agonist with an anabolic activity. Besides the levator ani weight, DMT also modulates the gene expression in the musculus gastrocnemius. The observed stimulation of TAT expression in the liver and the significant increase of the heart weight after DMT treatment can be taken as an indication for side effects. Summarizing these data it is obvious that DMT is a powerful anabolic steroid with selective androgen receptor modulators (SARM) like properties and some indications for toxic side effects. Therefore, there is a need for a strict control of a possible misuse.

    PMID: 17254722 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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    My guess is like anything, if you are genetically prone to those types of problems, steroids may aggravate it.

    Just like if you are prone to prostate swelling or hairloss, you may have more problems in those areas.
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