Havoc & Appetite, Liver?

[monsterbox]

Hey guys,

First of all let me just say I love the quick responses in this area of the forum. This anabolics section is always great.

Havoc has always been my dream come true. I gained 13lbs and kept all of it on my first cycle and felt AMAZING. I had awesome libido, energy, mood, outlook, and appetite.

Fast forward 2 years....

I'm currently on TRT+HCG. My last blood test showed T levels in the 800's and E2 at 23. After dreaming up an awesome cycle without having to worry about PCT I gave Primaforce Havoc a shot this past week.

I was mentally prepared and started with 20mg/day. I usually do not use liver aids until after the cycle. In the past I've handled up to 40mg so I ramped up to 30 for the next few days. By the end of the week I could not eat at ALL. I felt sick to my stomach when I thought about food and my blood pressure was very unsually high. I also could not sleep and had flashes of anxiety. I became very emotional. The only thing out of ordinary in my diet has been EAS Tri-blend Protein its Casein,Why and SOY<<?

I bailed on the cycle and finally feel better after 2 days. I've very disappointed. I was getting really full and strong. What has gone wrong?

-Primaforce is overdosed? The caps are much larger than RPN's.
-Its actually havoc?
-My liver reacted horribly?
-Havoc interacted with my TRT hormones?
-DHT and E2 raised too high and made me sick?

Where should I start in troubleshooting this thing...I really want to jump back on again soon! I cannot give up on this... Is this a thyroid, cortisol, adrenal fatigue sign or something of that nature?

 

[caesars]

very emocial it seems to be high level of estrogen,at the end of my tren/dymeth i've felt the same thing,but it was back to normal in third week of pct.
To solve high blood pressure you must to start take howthorn berry and drinking a plenty of water,but i think you know about this.
buddy i've had problems with food too,and i think it is not only a liver problem,maybe your lipid profile goes bad too.did you take red yeast rice and fish oil or flaxseed oil?if not,you must get start now.

 

[monsterbox]

very emocial it seems to be high level of estrogen,at the end of my tren/dymeth i've felt the same thing,but it was back to normal in third week of pct.
To solve high blood pressure you must to start take howthorn berry and drinking a plenty of water,but i think you know about this.
buddy i've had problems with food too,and i think it is not only a liver problem,maybe your lipid profile goes bad too.did you take red yeast rice and fish oil or flaxseed oil?if not,you must get start now.

Thanks for the advice...

I have all those basis covered. I take in 20g of fish oil daily. I also use Celery Seed Extract for BP. However, I just do not see how the hell this stuff could be liver related in only days 4-6. How could my liver/cholestrol be that skewed to screw me up that bad. It seems more like a hormonal issue. Can havoc raise E2? I'm having a hard time understanding the mechanisms that occur when its stacked ontop of Testosterone. Normally, if you are taking an exogenous steroid, the body would adjust itself to compensate...if you E2 is increasing from the steroid and such, seems to me like your body would try to achieve a balance. I'm on TRT so I'm getting everything in full force all the time. It could be too polycythemia or however you spell it..too much RBC

The only time I've ever felt that bad was in PCT from superdrol.

Keep the ideas coming guys I really appreciate this...I need to figure it out so I can get to deadlifting 500.

 

[meathed]

From a purely academic standpoint, I would venture to say your reaction was purely hormonal in nature. I m no expert though. Has anything in your TRT protocol changed recently? It may be a factor. If not, my best guess, barring the idea that you have a taint batch or some such anomaly, is that the Havoc being ramped up so abruptly may have fully contributed to the adverse event. If you plan to reattempt the cycle, maybe try and follow the standard dosing regime; i.e., 10/20/30/40, 20/30/40/40, etc...

Hope that is of some use. Sorry to hear that happened bro. Sounds pretty freaky. Glad you're on the straight now.

 

[monsterbox]

From a purely academic standpoint, I would venture to say your reaction was purely hormonal in nature. I m no expert though. Has anything in your TRT protocol changed recently? It may be a factor. If not, my best guess, barring the idea that you have a taint batch or some such anomaly, is that the Havoc being ramped up so abruptly may have fully contributed to the adverse event. If you plan to reattempt the cycle, maybe try and follow the standard dosing regime; i.e., 10/20/30/40, 20/30/40/40, etc...

Hope that is of some use. Sorry to hear that happened bro. Sounds pretty freaky. Glad you're on the straight now.

Thanks bro!

Nothing has changed in the TRT, but TRT itself is a big change! I was not on TRT in the past. However, in the past, I ran havoc at 30-40mg with no problems. Maybe this stuff is just really different than we think. Maybe it actually works based off your natural testosterone in some way. They say havoc can actually elevate your LH and lower your SHBG and free up some of your T until it shuts you down. Maybe it was actually making my TRT extremely potent and causing massive E2 conversion, because I wasn't feeling any dryness. Next time Ill surely start at 10mg because my strength was rediculous by day 5...that would have normally taken 2 weeks. In all honesty it felt like I was taking 10pills a day. My pills also smell very very sulphur. Every time I took a pill I would feel it literally kick up my blood pressure and anxiety immediately.

I do remember when CEL began making P-Plex they completely f'd up and made a double dosed batch. It tested at 20+mg per cap instead of 10mg. Its entirely possible that the batch could be double dosed or something...the caps are way way larger than RPN. I mean If I had to predict the sides at 70mg of havoc...this certainly felt like it. In 6 days my deadlift went from 315x6 to 365x5 and I gained 5lbs.

 

[meathed]

Thanks bro!

Nothing has changed in the TRT, but TRT itself is a big change! I was not on TRT in the past. However, in the past, I ran havoc at 30-40mg with no problems. Maybe this stuff is just really different than we think. Maybe it actually works based off your natural testosterone in some way. They say havoc can actually elevate your LH and lower your SHBG and free up some of your T until it shuts you down. Maybe it was actually making my TRT extremely potent and causing massive E2 conversion, because I wasn't feeling any dryness. Next time Ill surely start at 10mg because my strength was rediculous by day 5...that would have normally taken 2 weeks. In all honesty it felt like I was taking 10pills a day. My pills also smell very very sulphur. Every time I took a pill I would feel it literally kick up my blood pressure and anxiety immediately.

I do remember when CEL began making P-Plex they completely f'd up and made a double dosed batch. It tested at 20+mg per cap instead of 10mg. Its entirely possible that the batch could be double dosed or something...the caps are way way larger than RPN. I mean If I had to predict the sides at 70mg of havoc...this certainly felt like it. In 6 days my deadlift went from 315x6 to 365x5 and I gained 5lbs.

Excellent point about the dosage dependent effects. I've heard anecdotal evidence stating a similar ascertainment. There definitely seems to be a synergy at work between your TRT med and the Epithio clone. What is your med btw? The sulfur factor is interesting. I'm not too sure how a sulfur od would have led to the symptoms you described. Something to look into though.

 

[jaydollars]

Although most people ramp up havoc/epi it can still be effective at 10mg, either stop the cycle now or try low dosing and see if those nasty sides go away...I have seen many people low dose epi and even on a pulse and still see huge strength and mass gans

I am not familiar with your cycle experience but from what I have seen epi/havoc can be effective at almost any dose, a 30-50mg dose is not always needed

Also I am curious, how did you come to TRT?

 

[monsterbox]

Although most people ramp up havoc/epi it can still be effective at 10mg, either stop the cycle now or try low dosing and see if those nasty sides go away...I have seen many people low dose epi and even on a pulse and still see huge strength and mass gans

I am not familiar with your cycle experience but from what I have seen epi/havoc can be effective at almost any dose, a 30-50mg dose is not always needed

Also I am curious, how did you come to TRT?

I have already stopped cycle. Its been 2 days and I feel normal again now.

I'm on TRT because I've had consistently low-end T levels...(300ng/dl for a year) I used havoc in the past and a quick SD cycle but always used SERM. I took entire year and tried restarts etc...found out i had low-t from the beginning.

Anxiety/Insomnia/Appetite Loss are definitely as bad as it can get.

Im currently on 300mg of Tgel ED + 100iu HCG ED. At 200mg of Tgel I tested at 800ng/dl and E2 of 23. My doc recently increased me to 300...so i'm guesing my T is much higher along with much higher E2. Ill wait and see the results and possibly get any high E2 numbers down before trying havoc again. I have a feeling E2 is flucuating alot as I'm on full blast TRT with no E2 control. I've been having anxiety/hot flashes at night sometimes after long days. Something is telling me that havoc is throwing the E2 way up there causing the anxiety and palpitations...I originally thought havoc was an AI, but I think its actually moreso a SERM.

I recall a guy on this board ran havoc with 200mg/test and his E2 went from 20's to 50's. He was using havoc at 50mg as an AI for the testosterone...it actually didn't help at all.

 

[Lacradocious]

I have already stopped cycle. Its been 2 days and I feel normal again now.

I'm on TRT because I've had consistently low-end T levels...(300ng/dl for a year) I used havoc in the past and a quick SD cycle but always used SERM. I took entire year and tried restarts etc...found out i had low-t from the beginning.

Anxiety/Insomnia/Appetite Loss are definitely as bad as it can get.

Im currently on 300mg of Tgel ED + 100iu HCG ED. At 200mg of Tgel I tested at 800ng/dl and E2 of 23. My doc recently increased me to 300...so i'm guesing my T is much higher along with much higher E2. Ill wait and see the results and possibly get any high E2 numbers down before trying havoc again. I have a feeling E2 is flucuating alot as I'm on full blast TRT with no E2 control. I've been having anxiety/hot flashes at night sometimes after long days. Something is telling me that havoc is throwing the E2 way up there causing the anxiety and palpitations...I originally thought havoc was an AI, but I think its actually moreso a SERM.

I recall a guy on this board ran havoc with 200mg/test and his E2 went from 20's to 50's. He was using havoc at 50mg as an AI for the testosterone...it actually didn't help at all.

Using Havoc as an AI, especially at 50 mg is ridiculous. I would guess you felt great the first 2 times you took Havoc because you had low test to begin with so it felt good to have it in your system. Now that you are on TRT and have test in the 800 range, you are reacting completely differently.

 

[the GUNSHOW]

man I loved Epi im going to have to find some more

 

[monsterbox]

Using Havoc as an AI, especially at 50 mg is ridiculous. I would guess you felt great the first 2 times you took Havoc because you had low test to begin with so it felt good to have it in your system. Now that you are on TRT and have test in the 800 range, you are reacting completely differently.

Thats certainly a possibility! So havoc is simply pushing me over the top into feeling worse..

I'm definitely beginning to think this could also be some sort of Adrenal/Cortisol/Thyroid issue. Havoc and most other strong anabolics are very stimulating on the CNS. I've noticed recently I've had a more difficult time tolerating stims and have had to stop caffeine for a while as its been giving me anxiety/sleeplessness. If havoc overdrives the CNS from stimulation this could be another possibility. Testosterone from TRT ALSO stimulates the CNS. It could just be too much testosterone and too much stimulation for my CNS right now.

I'm going to do a 24hr saliva cortisol test along with another blood test on my TRT and hopefully switch to Testosterone Cypionate w/ Arimidex to provide more stable predictable levels. Then Ill hit up havoc again.

 

[caesars]

man i'm glad to read that you are good again,it was very complex,i really don't know what happened,but stay away from havoc and put some i.e. on your pct.good lucky bro

 

[Rodja]

My main question is why you would use anabolics when you've already been on TRT? You're fully aware that something is awry without your HPTA and this seems like it wuld only exacerbate your condition.

 

[Bberforlife]

That seems pretty unheard of with havoc. Has to be pre existing conditions IMO.

 

[monsterbox]

That seems pretty unheard of with havoc. Has to be pre existing conditions IMO.

I agree...must be some adrenal issues. I'm going to get a 24hr cortisol test on my next check up.

Are these sides common with higher doses of havoc like 60+mg? It really just felt like I was taking a huge overwhelming amount of it and it was stressing out my mood, sleep, and appetite. I mean that happens on any PH when you overdose it. I was only taking 30mg, but maybe the primaforce clone is stronger than usual...

Next go around Ill try out my original rpn bottle.

 

[monsterbox]

I think i've got this figured out!!

Do oral steroids actually suppress cortisol level?

I've been having to cut out all caffeine lately because caffeine itself has been making me sleepy, and then when it wears off it makes me anxious...same symptoms as havoc side effects!

This leads me to believe my I have LOW cortisol levels...I have always thought I had high cortisol and have been taking lots of vitamin c, fish oil, and cissus.

Its now making sense that low cortisol could be the issue...the body releases cortisol to deal with stress. After using steroids, your cortisol is supposed to RISE to deal with the stress of PCT. This means that steroids are suppressing cortisol on cycle. And if you have low cortisol to begin with, then its going to completely CRUSH them leading the body to raising blood sugar levels and going into fight-flight mode off epinephrine!!!!

This sounds EXACTLY like the issue at hand. I also notice that HCG makes me feel relaxed and HCG RASIES cortisol!


What do you guys think? Get a 24hr cortisol test ASAP? Then procede to pregnenalone and licorice and no stims for a good while?

 

[Ju1cedUp]

I think i've got this figured out!!

Do oral steroids actually suppress cortisol level?

i believe steroids block the effects of cortisol, they don't actually lower it, thats why when pct roles around you add in the anti-cort to keep it insignificant and maintain gains

 

[monsterbox]

i believe steroids block the effects of cortisol, they don't actually lower it, thats why when pct roles around you add in the anti-cort to keep it insignificant and maintain gains

Well why is it that people with severe adrenal fatigue and hypogonadism get on TRT and immediately experience anxiety/panic attacks from testosterone. Its the only known reason why people have anxiety from increased T levels.

 

[monsterbox]

wells its been a little over a week since I stopped havoc. I'm back to feeling great again. Sleeping good, good libido, energy, and strength.

I want to hit havoc again but what should I do differently this time? Should I try taking an AI along with it? I have a little A-dex sitting around.

Should I preload celery seed extract before hand to see if its blood pressure related...should I switch to the RPN version? I really don't want to open the bottle if it turns out to be exactly the same as primaforce.

Any advice would be great!

 

[Carcaya]

I am going to second Rodja's questioning of your choice to go back to anabolics when you knew that you had hormonal trouble before. I have read a few of your threads on this site and anabolics seem to really get into your head dude. Maybe you should take the brown rice chicken and dedicated time route to deadlifting 500. I am sure it is much more rewarding anyways. Don't ignore Rodja. He always brings up a good point.

 

[monsterbox]

well got my lab results back from dec 1st.

E2 was 29, free T was 346, total T was 858. Not sure of the ranges...this is what the doc told me.

He put me on .5mg of a-dex E3D. So, maybe all of this was related to my E2. My E2 used to be 15.

 

[AM360]

any news on prima havoc, and if it was over strength. bout to start a cycle my damn self.. but it sounds like it made you feel bad..

 

[monsterbox]

any news on prima havoc, and if it was over strength. bout to start a cycle my damn self.. but it sounds like it made you feel bad..

I think it was normal...

It was probably just me. I was having issues sleepy and tolerating stims in general. Found out I had pretty high E with a very low SHBG. My E2 was 28 and my SHBG was 15...this means my bioavailable estrogen was really high. Doc put me on arimidex...My total T was over 1000, and my bioavail was over 600ng/dl!!

My self diagnosis of what went wrong ---

Havoc lowered my SHBG even further, which in turn increased my testosterone moreso, which in turn caused more estrogen conversion. So even though havoc itself didn't aromatize into estrogen, it increased the availability of my TRT dosages causing more estrogen which lead to the panic/anxiety/loss of appetite/sleep disorder.

So the bottom line, Havoc is NOT an AI...its just a non-aromatizing steroid. It will not LOWER your estrogen, it may actually increase it while simultaneously blocking the breast effects.

 

[monsterbox]

UPDATE!

Well, Doc put me on 1/2mg Adex, Twice per week. I decided to just take .25 M-W-F...1mg seems like too much.

Anyhow, I feel much better. I've been sleeping better and getting less anxious at night. I believe all this time, its been estrogen.

So, I boldy decided to give havoc another shot.

Day 1 - 10mg
Day 2 - 10mg
Day 3- 10mg
Day 4 - 20mg
Day 5 - 30mg
Day 6 - 30mg
Day 7 - 30mg
Day 8 - 40mg

So far everythings been going great. The heart beating anxiety crazyness is no longer present when I take the havoc. The insomnia isn't nearly as bad. I feel like the days I'm not taking Adex, I notice it rebound a little. I actually do believe that havoc brings up estrogen levels if you are on TRT.

Anyhow, I'm up to a solid 198-200. I'm pumped up as crap, but my strength hasn't budged yet. Going to stick this out a few weeks and just see what happens...if sides come back again Ill stop.

 

[Steveee]

UPDATE!

Well, Doc put me on 1/2mg Adex, Twice per week. I decided to just take .25 M-W-F...1mg seems like too much.

Anyhow, I feel much better. I've been sleeping better and getting less anxious at night. I believe all this time, its been estrogen.

So, I boldy decided to give havoc another shot.

Day 1 - 10mg
Day 2 - 10mg
Day 3- 10mg
Day 4 - 20mg
Day 5 - 30mg
Day 6 - 30mg
Day 7 - 30mg
Day 8 - 40mg

So far everythings been going great. The heart beating anxiety crazyness is no longer present when I take the havoc. The insomnia isn't nearly as bad. I feel like the days I'm not taking Adex, I notice it rebound a little. I actually do believe that havoc brings up estrogen levels if you are on TRT.

Anyhow, I'm up to a solid 198-200. I'm pumped up as crap, but my strength hasn't budged yet. Going to stick this out a few weeks and just see what happens...if sides come back again Ill stop.

what you dosing the havoc like?

 

[crowbar46]

I have a story to add here, it's not exactly the same as Monster's but similar in some respects.

I first ran Epi as the Nutraplanet clone and loved it. I ran it at 30-40 mg./day along with some "tren" for the last 3 weeks.

Next, I did a cycle of IBE's Epi and EST's Protodrol. By week 5 I felt like crap! I was doing 40 mg./day of Epi + 90 mg./day of Protodrol. I gained some great strength which I've kept, but I felt like **** by week 5--so I dropped the cycle at this point (just 1 week short of my planned 6 weeks).

My joints hurt, no libido, lethargy, poor sleep, supressed immune system--in fact, at the end of the cycle I got sick. The symptoms sure felt like low estrogen and/or cortisol. At any rate, I didn't have any levels checked, but I was also doing T3 during this cycle and I got NO EFFECT from it! Now, it's possible that the T3 was bunk or degraded, though I doubt it. T3 requires sufficient cortisol levels to work--to be transported out of the bloodstream into cells and exert its metabolic effects. I was--as I always do--using PrimaForce's bulk Cissus powder at the time also, which has anti-cortisol effects.

In retrospect, my symptoms sure do look like low/suppressed cortisol levels. I also plan on doing a 24 hr. saliva cortisol test. I think either Epi--at least certain brands--can have very potent cortisol lowering effects--as all steroids do--or the combination of the Epi and Protodrol suppressed my cortisol levels too much. The problem is, as Seth Roberts commented, nobdy can tell what Protodrol is because the nomenclature is so screwed up.


Crowbar

 

[Tansui]

UPDATE!

Well, Doc put me on 1/2mg Adex, Twice per week. I decided to just take .25 M-W-F...1mg seems like too much.

Anyhow, I feel much better. I've been sleeping better and getting less anxious at night. I believe all this time, its been estrogen.

So, I boldy decided to give havoc another shot.

Day 1 - 10mg
Day 2 - 10mg
Day 3- 10mg
Day 4 - 20mg
Day 5 - 30mg
Day 6 - 30mg
Day 7 - 30mg
Day 8 - 40mg

So far everythings been going great. The heart beating anxiety crazyness is no longer present when I take the havoc. The insomnia isn't nearly as bad. I feel like the days I'm not taking Adex, I notice it rebound a little. I actually do believe that havoc brings up estrogen levels if you are on TRT.

Anyhow, I'm up to a solid 198-200. I'm pumped up as crap, but my strength hasn't budged yet. Going to stick this out a few weeks and just see what happens...if sides come back again Ill stop.

verdict?

 

[monsterbox]

I'm on day 22. I've been taking 40mg the past week, sometimes popping an extra making it 50mg on workout days. My mood has been decent, no panic attacks, but I'm super swollen up. The past few days, I've dropped my Arimidex to see if it makes a difference, the arimidex was drying me out, making me flat, taking away my pump and making look shriveled up. However, now that I haven't taken the arimidex in 3 days, my muscles are EXTREMELY pumped up and full. I look rediculously insane. I'm over 198lbs now, easily.

Strength hasn't shown up much yet, but I've been on a-dex the whole cycle....I'm going to skip a few more days of the a-dex and see what happens. I have a feeling this fullness means Ill be extremely explosive in the gym monday. This is weird...I'm now 100% sure that havoc is NOT anti-estrogenic at all!! I mean I'm seriously blown the f*ck up. My recovery has been great....

I just don't understand why I felt so terrible a month ago when I took havoc for a week. I've tried both primaforce and rpn back and forth the past 3 weeks with no noticable difference, it just seems like primaforce hits harder. The anxiety/heart palpitations are not apparent however. Maybe its because I slowly ramped up the dosage and I'm using lots of hawthorn. My appetite today is unstoppable, I just DONT UNDERSTAND wtf is going on with these flucuations. 1 month ago havoc felt like it was killing me, no appetite, dryness, anxiety, nausea, and insomnia.

 

[Gator 87]

IDK if this matters, but I'll throw it out there: Epi rapidly degrades into Madol (Pheraplex) with time and exposure to air. You may have been experiencing Madol side effects (a harsher compound with more user-varying side effects).

A guy at iForce had a large cube of raw Epi lab tested after a month of sitting on a factory shelf exposed to the air and it came back as 98% Madol.

 

[monsterbox]

IDK if this matters, but I'll throw it out there: Epi rapidly degrades into Madol (Pheraplex) with time and exposure to air. You may have been experiencing Madol side effects (a harsher compound with more user-varying side effects).

A guy at iForce had a large cube of raw Epi lab tested after a month of sitting on a factory shelf exposed to the air and it came back as 98% Madol.

now that justs sound rediculous. I thought pheraplex was dimethyltestosterone....which has totally different properties. I could see how epi could degrade in strength/potency, but not into an entirely different product.

This may be true, but I would really need to see good evidence from companies other than iforce. We all know that IBE epistane was making some bunk epi back in the day....if thats what they tested, raw IBE epi...maybe it was the f'd up batch.

I just opened a bottle of havoc by RPN and have been using that bottle, this month, while intermittendly testing out the bottle from last month that I opened.


I'm not having any side effects...thats whats funny. I started out with sides, but now I feel awesome. I'm super full, my muscles feel jacked up like crazy. I'm not very bloated, just rediculously pumped up all the time.

 

[Gator 87]

now that justs sound rediculous. I thought pheraplex was dimethyltestosterone....which has totally different properties. I could see how epi could degrade in strength/potency, but not into an entirely different product.

Actually, Madol is Desoxymethyltestosterone. If memory serves me, the only difference between the two is the 3-keto ring, which Madol lacks.

This bombshell came was brought up as more of an afterthought following the FDA raid on bb.com's warehouses. People were wondering how the FDA found Epi that tested positive for Madol, and Vaughn brought up this point.

Here is all I could pull up without wasting too much of my time: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=391033371&postcount=71

 

[monsterbox]

thats just nuts, so when it looses the sulphur content, it becomes phera. Well, mine still smells like terrible hard boiled eggs.

 

[Tansui]

I read that in lab tests Epi converts to DMT (phera) with only heat as a conduit.

 

[monsterbox]

well i don't care what this stuff is but as of TODAY if freaking WORKS BIG TIME

My lifts last monday for chest:
Flat Bench Press - 185x10, 205x10, 205x5, 205x5

Today:
Flat Bench Press - 185x12, 225x10 (record was 5), 225x10, 245x5, 275x3 (never even tried this much weight in my life)

INSANITY. I'm rediculously pumped up. Weight is a solid, solid, 198.5. I am at a total loss of words. I can't not describe how rediculous my jump in strength has been almost over night. This is absolutely jaw dropping unbelievable. I have never ever put up that much weight. I put on a polo shirt the other day and it ripped!

Yesterday literally felt like an on-switch, today it was put to the test. Its only day 23.

If I feel good, would it be bad to carry this on for a total of 6-8 weeks? How far can I go until its dangerous on my liver.

 

[Gator 87]

If I feel good, would it be bad to carry this on for a total of 6-8 weeks? How far can I go until its dangerous on my liver.

I wouldn't go further than 5-6 weeks without a liver enzyme blood test. Use NAC too.

 

[Lacradocious]

I believe PA said that it would turn to DMT/Madol if exposed to heat. I don't think sitting in the open air is going to do it. However, if this is true, I wouldn't be surprised if these clones vary due to the fact that some of them are actually a mix of epi with some DMT in it (Due to the manufacturing process).

But it seems to me that the tests PA did actually heated epistane to run in through the gas chromograph or whatever. If that was the case, it would seem possible that the testing process is heating the epithio compound and reducing it to DMT giving a false reading of DMT (since the test itself heats and alters the compound). In his test, the results were not what would be expected based on the molecular weight of epistane.

I am weak when it comes to organic chemistry so this may be a ridiculous proposition on my part.

Glad that things are going better this time around Monsterbox.

 

[monsterbox]

any more tips on going 5-6 weeks +?

Does NAC really help at all on-cycle...I was under the impression that liver support herbs did nothing while on-cycle. They should be used after to help detox. When I was on pp/m-drol for a few weeks, I was taking tons of milk thistle and liv 52...my enzymes on cycle were 600alt! Afterwards they dropped like a rock within 3 weeks back to normal.

 

[monsterbox]

Update:

Weight is up today to 202lbs.
I did biceps/back on friday, today is tuesday. I did the same workout again with much much more endurance, stength, and pumps. This is incredible.

 

[Gator 87]

any more tips on going 5-6 weeks +?

Does NAC really help at all on-cycle...I was under the impression that liver support herbs did nothing while on-cycle. They should be used after to help detox. When I was on pp/m-drol for a few weeks, I was taking tons of milk thistle and liv 52...my enzymes on cycle were 600alt! Afterwards they dropped like a rock within 3 weeks back to normal.

NAC isn't just some herb. It is an amino acid that acts as a potent antioxidant and helps refuel, rebuild, and protect your liver.

Milk Thistle just helps clear clogged bile ducts in the liver, but it can't prevent anything.

 

[Lacradocious]

Milk thistle isn't very bio-available but apparently Primordial Performance figured out how to get the most out of it. NAC is a great liver supplement and it is relatively inexpensive in bulk on Nutraplanet.

Be carefull with your newfound strength to prevent injury. Sounds like your having some rediculous workouts.

 

[monsterbox]

Milk thistle isn't very bio-available but apparently Primordial Performance figured out how to get the most out of it. NAC is a great liver supplement and it is relatively inexpensive in bulk on Nutraplanet.

Be carefull with your newfound strength to prevent injury. Sounds like your having some rediculous workouts.

I just don't want this to end. I have never, ever felt this good in my life. I feel on top of the world constantly. Every moment of the day I just want to smile...lol its absolutely rediculous. I want to carry this out and make the most of it, I feel like if I quit at 4 weeks, I'm missing out because it took a good 2-3 weeks for it to reach this point.

I ordered a strong liver support, it has all the ingrediants of liv52, plus NAC, and milk thistle all dosed pretty generously. If I began taking the product and continued havoc at 40-50mg to 7 weeks, how much of a tax am I looking at on my body. I know its shot in the dark by making a hypothetical guess, without any enzymes to look at, but in comparison to something like superdrol, how bad is havoc on the liver for extended periods of time? Back in the day people would run phera for 4 weeks and bridge into superdrol for another 3 weeks, surely, havoc could not be as toxic at 7 weeks as something like that? If I'm severely underestimating the toxicity of havoc please let me know.

I guess Ill go ahead and order another 4-5 bottle considering its now discontinued...isn't the IBE version discontinued now as well?

Can't wait to post the before and after pics, its unreal.