ph cutting and diet questions
- 03-25-2004, 04:03 PM
ph cutting and diet questions
i plan on running a cutting cycle in may to drop the excess bf that i accumulated during my winter bulk. i have a few questions regarding diet and ph use though. I'm looking to maintain the same weight but drop bf so in essence gain some muscle. how does the body gain muscle if you are in a caloric deficit or at maintenence cals? as i understand it, anabolics make use of the excess protein you consume during bulking to assist in muscle building. if i am eating at maintenence cals or below, how does it work. i'm confused
- 03-26-2004, 08:16 AM
with all the scientific minds on this board and no one can pipe up and gimme an answer to how this occurs. i'm not asking what to eat, or what ph's to take i'm asking how something happens
- 03-26-2004, 09:23 AM
Originally Posted by embrace
If your looking to build muscle while cutting then keep looking. Seriously if your going to cut then cut, the best you can hope for is to maintain the mass you already have.
As far as PH's using excess protein I dont know where u got that. Your muscles use protein. PH's suppress your natural test by producing test for muscle building. I suggest you read the stickies, they tell all what your asking here.
03-26-2004, 09:37 AM
it doesn't.Originally Posted by embrace
as stated above, do some research on cutting cycles and separate research on PH/AAS cycles. then complain when no one bothers to answer your questions
03-26-2004, 10:10 AM
did ya ever read something and not get it? maybe you need someone to break it down for you in a different way? if it was all about reading there would be no need for anyone to ever attend school. i asked a question and had my information a bit garbled and misconstrued. (sp?) theres alot to be said for someone who can explain something they read to someone who doesn't understand all the details
thanks for ur help and smartass answers...i now feel like i have a mastery of the subject matter...i love message boards
03-26-2004, 11:37 AM
Responses like this will not get you an ounce of help on here. I dont know how else to explain it to you, either cut or bulk. You cant build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Do one or the other. Like i said and apparently u didnt understand, all these questions have been answered a million times in other threads, you just have to do a search and read the stickies. Maybe that is why no one bothered to answer your question. You get tired of answering the same question over and over and over. Research my friend, thats how we all learned. You strike me as someone who isnt ready for PH's anyway, stick to creatine.Originally Posted by embrace
03-26-2004, 01:29 PM
scott, i'm going to ask you one question and if you can give me an answer to this phenomenon then i'll be more than happy to research till my eyes fall out.
if it's not possible to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, how do BB'ers who use PH's or AAS maintain the same bodyweight but lose bf %. In my book if you're losing fat but staying the same weight then that would translate to muscle growth, wouldn't it? or am i just misunderstanding the whole thing?
secondly i didn't mean to come off as a prick here but seriously bro....i'm trying to understand something that is very important to me. i have read sticky after sticky, i know about bodybuilding BASICS, nutrition BASICS, PH/AAS BASICS. what i'm looking for is a more refined knowledge of the above. i hit a roadblock in understanding some of what i read. if the purpose of a message board is to educate then why is it such a daunting task to explain to someone when they are stuck understanding something?
if you don't know the answer to what i'm asking, fine...no one knows everything but i thought that this would be a pretty simple question for people as experienced as the people on this board
And BTW...in regards to your comment "You strike me as someone who isnt ready for PH's anyway, stick to creatine."...thats a really presumptuous statement to make to someone who is coming here asking for help and trying to get his facts straight. Furthermore i already ran my first PH cycle this winter...standalone M-1-T @ 10mg ED. Gained 8 lbs....kept it all...so i must be doing something right
03-26-2004, 02:14 PM
Sure it's possible to gain muscle and lose bodyfat at the same time, I hate the cookie cutter response bull**** when people state that it's impossible. Sure it's easier to pick one or the other, but it can be done. One term for this is recomposition. What happens is laymens terms is a huge increase in nutrient partitioning from the androgens when cutting, where what you are after, loss of bodyfat and gain of muscle, happens simultaneously. A greater percentage of the nutrients you injest are shuttled towards muscle, and less towards your fat cells, so you are utilizing the calories you ingest much more efficiently. Add in the greatly increased nitrogen retention that anabolic substances bring and your ripe for recomping. Sure this is a greatly simplified explanation, but I think it works for explaining things somewhat.
In order to really get good results from this you need to have your diet and training spot on. I've tried this myself with moderate success, the problem being the post cycle period. If I continued to cut after stopping use of androgens I tended to lose most of the gains I made during the cycle. Being as you've just been cutting, it's kind of hard to convince oneself to increase the calories post cycle to hang onto the gains you've made. I've yet to try allout cutting on androgens as of yet, and think I may try this with my m-dien when I do my next cycle. What I think should work well is to cut naturally for a period of time, and then cut with the androgens toward the end of the cut, so increasing the calories post-cycle would be something you'd be ready for anyway.
03-26-2004, 02:35 PM
thank you max...that was the type of answer i was looking for. you are a gentleman as well as a scholar. i never thought about increasing the cals once i finished with the cycle but now that I think about it, it makes sense...maybe a little clen would help post cycle too..with hanging on to muscle gains and minimizing fat gain..not sure tho...what conclusion did we come to in that thread you posted about clen post cycle a few days ago?
03-26-2004, 02:42 PM
Ok me try this again. If your dead set on losing bf while gaining muscle then yes your diet has to be perfect. Also realize that the process is going to be much slower than the typical bulk or cut routine. If you've already done a cycle of M1T then you should be familiar to what it takes. If you gained 8 lbs on that cycle and kept it all, then I'm not sure why your asking questions. I think you have the answers. I'm assuming all 8 lbs wasnt fat so in a sense you prob gained several pounds of muscle while maybe gaining a couple pounds of fat. What more can you ask for? If the fat bothers you the go on a cut cycle and drop it off.Originally Posted by embrace
I didnt mean to flame you or say that dropping bf and adding muscle was impossible, but it is very tough and takes tremendous discipline that a lot of us dont have. For me anyway, its easier to bulk then cut or vice versa. I guess I would suggest doing another cycle of M1T and keep your cals around maintainance. M1T is very good about adding muscle mass without the "bulking calories" that other supplements seem to need.
Out of curiosity, what is your current weight and goals?
03-26-2004, 03:13 PM
thank you as well scott...no hard feelings bro. i am pretty disciplined with dieting. i initially tried to keep my cals in check gaining miniscule amts of muscle while gaining not fat whatsoever but this winter i threw caution to the wind and decide to bulk and worry about bf later. i started at 160 lbs 16.5% bf in march of 2002. by july of 2002 i was at 140 lbs 9% bf. i managed to get to 7.7% at one point but i was hella skinny and didn't look good. i was just sick of being fat so getting to a bf that low was a novelty to me. i enjoyed it for a month or two and then started increasing cals. last year i gained 10 lbs naturally. january of this year i started eating a little more cals and out of curiosity decided to try M-1-T. i know, i know ( i can see the flames coming already) i wanted to try something new. i know i probably could have gained the other 8 lbs naturally but ****...come on guys...who's gonna argue with gaining 8 lbs in three weeks (mostly clean weight too.) the temptation was too much and i took the bait. i liked the way i looked when i ran the M-1-T. for the most part i liked the way i felt...in the gym i felt like a frickin animal..seeing my strength improve day by day was quite addictive. i felt powerful as all hell and initailly my sex drive skyrocketed. my overall goal is to get to 170 lbs at around 8%. i'm 5'8" so it's not really big but it's a comfortable size for me and i think i would look good there.
my planned cycle is m-1-t and 1,4 andro. i was gonna run the andro for 6 weeks with m-1-t starting the cycle and ending the cycle (2 on 2 off). we'll see where that gets me. BTW..i'm 28 years old
once again guys thanks for your patience and help...it's appreciated
03-26-2004, 03:32 PM
I don't think any conclusion was really reached on the clenbuterol thread, it more or less just died out.
I've found that it has worked great for keeping unwanted fat at bay, but personally it doesn't do so much for maintaining strength levels. My hypothesis for this phenomenon is that the clenbuterol really removes excess water from your body in a hurry, and I wonder whether or not it discriminates from intramuscular water and extracellular water. What I mean by this is I always feel very flat while on clenbuterol, (or deflated if you prefer), yet at the same time it also tends to make my face look leaner. For me it tends to work as a reverse cell volumizer, ridding muscle cells of water and subsequent nutrient storage capabilities. As such I am uncertain as to whether I really like the substance too terribly much. On the one hand it does work to burn fat while cutting or keep off fat while in caloric excess, but on the other hand for myself it seems to be detrimental for strength gains/retention and while cutting feels like I'm losing too much muscle, although the muscle loss may in fact just be loss of intracellular water once again.
It sounds like your in much the same boat as I was awhile back, having lost bodyfat to extremes and reaching stickman status (I didn't know any better, I just saw the resulting leanness and was blind to how obscenely skinny I was becoming). My first cycle (embarked on before I was truly prepared) was a 1-ad cycle, I gained all of 7 pounds in 4 weeks, but a good portion of that was likely fat. Oh well, we're all here to learn and improve our knowledge/body composition, and I have zero problems helping out when I feel I can.
03-26-2004, 03:40 PM
IMO, your type of training is very important to building muscle if you wanna burn fat simultaneously. The diet must also be flawless, creatine or V-12/Swole V2 are very nice especially since I assume you'll lower your carbs and your muscles will need ATP to do some pretty heavy lifting. I also prefer heavy lifting while cutting and lower intensity cardio ( 60% Max HR )
03-26-2004, 03:59 PM
I think key here is to not just drop your carbs haphazardly, sure they need to be dropped but don't skimp yourself on the carbs around your workout time, ensuring that proper pre and post workout nutrition requirements are met.
03-26-2004, 04:03 PM
calories out > calories in = lose weight
high protein = saves muscle
03-26-2004, 04:05 PM
03-26-2004, 05:32 PM
Did you not read any other parts of the thread? I explained and corrected myself later on, please read on, your missing the rest if all you read was one sentence.Originally Posted by mrfumetsu
03-26-2004, 05:52 PM
Max silver good job at answering embraces question without saying use the search engine. I am sick myself of useing the search to look up threads only to read more posts saying to use the search.
03-26-2004, 06:18 PM
i'm just helping others by making sure they don't absorb information that is completely untrue.Originally Posted by scott72
03-26-2004, 10:41 PM
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