Seth Roberts, Help: Half-Life Of T3?

[crowbar46]

I've been researching T3 and the half-life estimates are all over the place for this stuff; anywhere from 7 hours to ~2.5 days!

Seth, can you help me sort this out--what's going on here? I'm trying to figure out if I need to split dosages during the day into 2 or more. One person mentioned that they were told by their endocrinologist that T3 had a half-life of about 1 day but that it COULD be metabolized much more rapidly--as in ~ 6 hours.


Thanks,

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[crowbar46]

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[CopyCat]

My mother currently takes .5mg of Sidamel first thing in the AM. From what I know about her and have seen, I do not see a reason to split doses during the day at all. As she puts it, "as soon as I take my dose in the morning, it's like someone put a D Cell battery in me all day".

In fact, I would think that splitting them up could potentially cause sleep issues at night.

 

[crowbar46]

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[crowbar46]

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[B5150]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/20807-t3-half-life.html

 

[crowbar46]

Heat Miser, thanks for that link; I actually found that and read it earlier. Still, I get VERY conflicting results when I research T3 half-life. Maybe it's some inherent characteristic of T3 that makes it so difficult to pinpoint the half-life.

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[B5150]

I think the take home message should be to ramp up slowly. The very strong, hard and rapid heart rate can be very uncomfortable and candidly, not very healthy. If it does have a half life or 2.5 days than chronic high dose administration is not advisable. Been there done that - not very pleasant with little to no increased benefit. I would not go EOD I would just use a lower dose.

As Dr.D mentioned T4 is a very better and more efficacious alternative will very little to no adverse cardiovascular side effects.

 

[CopyCat]

I dug out my Physician's Desk Reference and it confirms what both these links have as far as information on T3 and it's half life... 2.5 days

http://www.rxlist.com/cytomel-drug.htm

http://www.drugs.com/pro/cytomel.html

 

[sethroberts]

As these guys pointed out, the half-life is ~ 2.5 days. There is usually some individual variability in drug metabolism but probably not too much. The value of 7 hours that you see may be from an intravenous study in children. The long half-life makes me wonder if every other day dosing maybe more appropriate since plasma levels will build up when taking it daily. Also, it will take about 2 weeks for T3 to clear once dosing stops -- maybe longer depending on how high plasma levels have built up. Sorry it took me so long to reply, been out of circulation the past few days.

 

[crowbar46]

Seth, thanks. I was wondering about some possible side effects of T3. I'm up to 75 mcg./day--which is my max (and at that dosage I'll go for just short of 3 weeks). I seem to be experiencing some headaches, a little nausea, and a good deal of lethargy. My understanding is that T3 can have somewhat contradictory side effects; for example, in smaller dosages it seems to often produce increased energy, in larger doses lethargy. Is this correct?

Also, I am experiencing no increase in heart rate--still 64 BPM resting. Also, I have to say that I seem to be experiencing no real weight loss (above what I would normally expect), at least so far after ~ 3 weeks, although I've cut calories and increased cardio. Could my individual response to T3 be that different than most people's? The sides I mentioned do seem consistent with what I've read; this along with other things tend to make me think that the T3 I have is legit.


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[machinehead]

I took half of what you are taking and it pushed my levels way above the range. Heart rate was normal, so was a body temperature of 100F

The lethargy comes from the lack of cortisol to take T3 to the cell. Your adrenals are working overtime to make it happen but it's not enough hence the lethargy. I hope you are not taking an anti-cortisol with it. If you want more energy, get some hydrocortisone and watch your energy go through the roof, accompanied with euphoria. I am not endorsing it though, I'm just working with my doctor. Your heart mitochondria are being overworked to unhealthy levels (just a guess) and since you are not taking T4 your body is likely not making enough RT3 to counter the excess of T3. Right now a lot of T3 is floating in your blood and I think it is a good thing that it isn't being used, being hyperthyroid is no fun. Oh, and your estradiol is depleting fast as is your zinc, pushing iron through the roof. Your SHBG is probably double what it was before you started. Yes, your total test will go up but not enough to offset the rise in SHBG. I'd recommend reducing your dose to the point where you don't feel lethargy. Fat loss will not slow down as long as you manipulate the other variables, I'm speaking from experience.

 

[crowbar46]

Machinehead--thank you VERY much, great info.

So, in your opinion, what can one do, in general, in order to optimize the effectiveness of T3? Why do I seem to be experiencing so little in the way of enhanced fat loss?

Again, thank you very much. It seems obvious to me that I need to pick up a copy of Seth's Anabolic Pharmacology.

P.S. If Seth is correct and the T3 will take ~2 weeks to clear from my system post cycle (which also includes anabolics), do you think I should wait 2 weeks in order to start anti-cortosol treatment (CEL's Suppress C)?


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[crowbar46]

I've heard of the pros using 150 mcg./day--not that I'd EVER do that--so, if my body isn't using all the T3 I'm providing it with what could I do to allow my body to more effeciently use the T3 I'm taking?

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[machinehead]

Hydrocortisone will do that, but why do it? Just give it a few weeks to start seeing results. What is your resting body temperature and your post-cardio temperature?

I think you can start Suppress-C as soon as you discontinue T3. I've used it before and it seems to lean me out by the day, works great for me. I can't wait to get to 9% bf to use it again.

 

[crowbar46]

I've been on T3 for about 3 weeks now, no real increased weight loss above what I'd expect without it.

Is it possible that for some reason my body is producing too much rT3, thus acting as a T3 antagonist and reducing the effectiveness of the T3 I am taking?

I just expected to see the effects of increased metabolism to some degree by now, but I don't seem to.

P.S. Where is the lack of cortisol coming from--the anabolics? Also, what role does cortisol play in allowing your body to utilize the T3? It seems that if low cortisol were the culprit, then anytime someone used AAS/DS they would experience a lowered metabolism--which isn't the case.


Thanks again,

Crowbar

 

[machinehead]

Yes, it's possible to have high RT3 and low T3 due to iodine, vitamin D defficiencies etc. At your weight (and fat, sorry), you might need some extra vitamin D3 but you can't tell that without a blood test.

It takes weeks for changes to occur at the cellular level. This is especially true if you've been hypothyroid for a long time, for instance. If it doesn't work as expected after a few weeks it is because there isn't enough cortisol to drive T3 in the cells.

Actually, you cortisol should be very high now but still short of putting all the T3 to use. But if your adrenals have crashed from the increased demand placed on them, cortisol maybe low too. It is weird really, a blood test will show high cortisol but a saliva test will show low cortisol due to all of it being used up by the tissues that need it. Again, lethargy ensues.

I don't know about AAS and cortisol and thyroid. Most AAS suppress the thyroid (hence lactation may occur) and the adrenals. But AAS directly influence metabolism and protein turnover so it's more complicated there.

 

[crowbar46]

1) I take 5000 iu/day of Vit. D
2) Why should my cortisol be very high right now? I'm on a cycle of 40 mg./day Epi and 90 mg./day Propadrol--steroids generally supress cortisol.
3) How does cortisol function to "drive T3 into cells"? My understanding is that elevated cortisol can inhibit T4 from being converted to T3, thus resulting in hypothyrodism. I'm not sure but I may have also read that elevated cortisol causes more of the T4 to be converted to rT3--both would be negative, so I don't understand how cortisol is beneficial in this equation.

thanks,

Crowbar

 

[machinehead]

1) What brand? I have found 4000IU of Bio D Mulsion Forte in some oil to drive my vitamin D to the upper range

2) It should be high from the demand for cortisol that T3 palces on the body. In your case, it may be low which is not optimal. I can only guess

3) This is correct. But cortisol does also take T3 from the blood into the cells. The same way, T3 enhances the effects of cortisol in cells. AS to how exactly, I don't know.

EDIT: found a good one:
http://www.virginiahopkinstestkits.com/cortisolzava.html

 

[crowbar46]

I use Puritan Pride brand D3.

First of all, thank you very much that was a great read. So, I don't think it's quite correct to say that T3 places a demand on the body for cortisol, but, rather, that cortisol is needed in the right amounts for T3 to function at the cellular level properly.

It seems to me--for a number of reasons--I suspect that I have elevated cortisol levels. I often find myself under a lot of stress, I have irregular sleep patterns and tend to be a night owl when I can allow my body to drift to its naturally prefered pattern, I have trouble sleeping soundly sometimes, I seem to have an unusually slow metabolism for the amount of muscle I carry, etc. All of this tends to make me think that despite my steroid use I actually have elevated cortisol levels. This, in turn, could certainly compromise the results that I might get from the T3.

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[crowbar46]

It does make me wonder if using a cortisol blocker on-cycle would be of benefit as I always thought that steroids were sufficient to lower cortisol pretty strongly--I guess that would depend on the steroid(s), dosages, and a host of other factors.

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[machinehead]

I don't see a point of lowering them below normal range. Now fat cortisol levels are another issue. Suppress-C can work well here and so do other topicals that work locally.

 

[crowbar46]

Suppress C should work systemically, as cortisol has systemic effects that differ depending on the target tissue; just as estrogen has systemic effects that differ depending on the tissue you're talking about. So there's no way to lower cortisol levels just in fat tissue as the active in Suppress C will enter the bloodstream and be delivered systemically. It will then exert its effects on cortisol anywhere in the body that cortisol is utilized, unless you're saying that the compound in Suppress C acts in fat tissue as a cortisol antagonist, and in other tissues as a cortisol agonist--but I don't think that's what you're claiming.


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[machinehead]

I think the delivery is local, unlike PP's transdermals that are systemic. I'm not sure though

 

[crowbar46]

Here's what a CEL rep had to say:

No, we went with a systemic carrier rather than a localized because the goal of this product is to supply an effective dose of the active ingredient so that it can be used for fat loss, pct, etc.

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[crowbar46]

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[sethroberts]

1) I take 5000 iu/day of Vit. D
2) Why should my cortisol be very high right now? I'm on a cycle of 40 mg./day Epi and 90 mg./day Propadrol--steroids generally supress cortisol.
3) How does cortisol function to "drive T3 into cells"? My understanding is that elevated cortisol can inhibit T4 from being converted to T3, thus resulting in hypothyrodism. I'm not sure but I may have also read that elevated cortisol causes more of the T4 to be converted to rT3--both would be negative, so I don't understand how cortisol is beneficial in this equation.

thanks,

Crowbar

When did you start the T3 in relation to the epi?

 

[crowbar46]

Seth, I started the T3 about 1 week after I started my cycle. I spent 9 days ramping up (12.5 mcg. for 3 days, 25 for 3 days, 50 for 3 days), then 75 mcg. for ~3 weeks this coming Sunday. Then I'll ramp down--50 mcg. for 4 days, 25 mcg. for 3 days, then off and start of PCT.

One thing I've noticed is that I'm still experiencing a good bit of lethargy, but no tachycardia, only a few headaches, and rarely some transient nausea. However, as I said, I seem to be experiencing no noticible metabolic stimulation from the T3.

One thing that has developed strongly over the last couple of days is a lot of joint aches--my knees, elbows, back, everwhere really except my shoulders. Now, it occured to me that I started using Cissus probably 1 1/2 months before this cycle--Prima Force brand which is 40% total ketosterones, 20% 3-ketosterone, 2 g./day. Cissus apparently has cortisol lowering properties. So, I'm now wondering--contrary to my earlier speculation--if I'm not suffering from overly suppressed cortisol levels due to the combination of both the steroids and the Cissus? It seems to me that this, in addition to the estrogen suppression from the Epistane, could explain my joint aches, lack of effect from the T3, and lethargy.

Does this make any sense?

Also, I was planning on using Competitive Edge Labs Suppress-C, which is transdermal B-Androstenetriol (Androst-5-ene-3b, 7b, 17b-triol) as a cortisol control agent during my 4 week PCT period. Is this advisable given my current situation, and if so should I discontinue the Cissus during this 4 week period so as to avoid overly suppressing cortisol levels?

Thank you very much for your time, you've been very generous with your help and advise,


Crowbar

 

[sethroberts]

Seth, I started the T3 about 1 week after I started my cycle. I spent 9 days ramping up (12.5 mcg. for 3 days, 25 for 3 days, 50 for 3 days), then 75 mcg. for ~3 weeks this coming Sunday. Then I'll ramp down--50 mcg. for 4 days, 25 mcg. for 3 days, then off and start of PCT.

One thing I've noticed is that I'm still experiencing a good bit of lethargy, but no tachycardia, only a few headaches, and rarely some transient nausea. However, as I said, I seem to be experiencing no noticible metabolic stimulation from the T3.

One thing that has developed strongly over the last couple of days is a lot of joint aches--my knees, elbows, back, everwhere really except my shoulders. Now, it occured to me that I started using Cissus probably 1 1/2 months before this cycle--Prima Force brand which is 40% total ketosterones, 20% 3-ketosterone, 2 g./day. Cissus apparently has cortisol lowering properties. So, I'm now wondering--contrary to my earlier speculation--if I'm not suffering from overly suppressed cortisol levels due to the combination of both the steroids and the Cissus? It seems to me that this, in addition to the estrogen suppression from the Epistane, could explain my joint aches, lack of effect from the T3, and lethargy.

Does this make any sense?

Also, I was planning on using Competitive Edge Labs Suppress-C, which is transdermal B-Androstenetriol (Androst-5-ene-3b, 7b, 17b-triol) as a cortisol control agent during my 4 week PCT period. Is this advisable given my current situation, and if so should I discontinue the Cissus during this 4 week period so as to avoid overly suppressing cortisol levels?

Thank you very much for your time, you've been very generous with your help and advise,


Crowbar

That does make sense. With this kind of polypharmacy (two androgens, an herb, T3 and ?) it can be difficult to predict the outcome. Epi should reduce TBG which should result in enhanced T3 uptake -- at least initially until the body compensates. The problem is that I am not really sure what is in the propadrol because the nomenclature is so screwed up so who knows what it is going to contribute.

 

[crowbar46]

Seth, again thank you. Concerning the use of the Suppress-C during PCT for cortisol control: do you think it will be OK to use this seeing that the androgens will be gone at this point, or should I allow my cortisol levels a chance to recovery somewhat and not use the Suppress-C. Additionally, if I do use the Suppress-C during PCT would it be OK to continue the Cissus, or should I give that a break.

While I'm on the subject, and I don't know how much you know about the pharmacology of Cissus, do you think it's OK to use Cissus while on androgens? The reason I ask is the problems I seem to have encountered here--the overly suppressed cortisol levels. So, in your opinion, would the concurrent use of Cissus and androgens possibly induce hypocortisol levels? I would like to be able to use the Cissus while on cycle because of a number of benefits, but if that's not advisable I'm obviously alright with leaving it out while on cycle.

Again, I realise you may not really have an answer for this, but do you have any sense as to which substance would exert stronger anti-cortisol effects, Cissus or Suppress-C (B-triol)?


P.S. I think the lesson here is that a simple cycle consisting of one androgen (who's chemical structure is known and about which one can make reasonable guesses concerning effects) and not a lot of other potentially complicating substances--e.g., Cissus?--may produce better results with something as potentially complicated and tricky to manipulate as T3.

So, lastly any androgens that you think would stack particularly well with T3?


Thanks,


Crowbar

 

[crowbar46]

I was thinking of running Tren Lv from Primordial Performance along with Phera-Plex for 6 weeks as my next cycle. Any reason that combination would not work well with T3?

Again, what do you think of the concurrent use of Cissus? Do you think that's just lowering cortisol too much?

thanks,


Crowbar

 

[sethroberts]

I was thinking of running Tren Lv from Primordial Performance along with Phera-Plex for 6 weeks as my next cycle. Any reason that combination would not work well with T3?

Again, what do you think of the concurrent use of Cissus? Do you think that's just lowering cortisol too much?

thanks,


Crowbar

In the absence of bloodwork, I don't know if cissus is lowering cortisol too much but it seems like a reasonable hypothesis.

As far as tren is concerned, there is nothing in the literature and I have not seen any blood work that would indicate one way or the other if it is having any effect on the thyroid system.

 

[crowbar46]

Seth thanks for the response--I know it's a long post but could you take a look at my last post on the pervious page and give me your opinion.

What makes this so confusing is that HIGH cortisol can produce many of these effects; e.g., elevated cortisol can produce a general hormonal resistance throughout the body (including at the thyroid receptor). So, without a test it's hard to tell what's going on.

I did notice after my last cycle when I used Primordial Performance's EndoAmp Max (a Phosphatidylserine supplement) that I was able to eat a lot more calories and still get leaner.

This brings me to the last two questions of this very long thread:

1) what do you think about using cortisol lowering agents while on cycle--is there any potential benefit diring a cutting cycle?

2) If I test low for cortisol is there anything short of using hydrocortisone that I can do to allow T3--either endogenous or exogenous--to exert its effects at the cellular level more effectively?

Thanks again,


Crowbar

 

[sethroberts]

Seth thanks for the response--I know it's a long post but could you take a look at my last post on the pervious page and give me your opinion.

What makes this so confusing is that HIGH cortisol can produce many of these effects; e.g., elevated cortisol can produce a general hormonal resistance throughout the body (including at the thyroid receptor). So, without a test it's hard to tell what's going on.

I did notice after my last cycle when I used Primordial Performance's EndoAmp Max (a Phosphatidylserine supplement) that I was able to eat a lot more calories and still get leaner.

This brings me to the last two questions of this very long thread:

1) what do you think about using cortisol lowering agents while on cycle--is there any potential benefit diring a cutting cycle?

2) If I test low for cortisol is there anything short of using hydrocortisone that I can do to allow T3--either endogenous or exogenous--to exert its effects at the cellular level more effectively?

Thanks again,


Crowbar

No problem. I haven't been able to give this thread the attention I would have liked to so I apologize for that.

Here are the issues I see: 1) A lot of AAS will reduce cortisol levels and/or signalling while on cycle so there is probably not much use to trying to suppress them further. 2)Testing for cortisol levels is not an easy process. I have seen supposed cycle lists for one of the pros where a corticosteroid was included (can't remember which one and everyone else overlooked it) -- I suspect it was included because cytadren was also on the list and cytadren can cause dangerously low cortisol levels so replacement is largely necessary. I do not recommend supplementing with corticosteroids unless you are under the supervision of a physician because it can be dangerous -- especially when combined with other drugs.

My personal opinion, and I don't mean to offend, is that you may be trying to do to much at once. You are not seeing the weight drop off but have you done body composition measurements? Hormonal effects are difficult to determine through subjective means. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

 

[crowbar46]

Seth, I do see your point about trying to do too much at once. I'm trying to go from ~285 lbs. down to ~250 Lbs. I've reduced caloric intake and increased overall activity level, specifically cardio as well as reducing carbs. I've managed to drop ~10 lbs. over a 6 week period (now ~275 lbs.). This being my first time using T3 I was under the impression that I would experience a more dramatically elevated metabolism, allowing me either to eat more calories (e.g., "maintenance" level)--which I haven't--and continue to loose weight, or cut calories (which I have) and loose weight at an accelerated rate. However, this does not seem to have happened. To be fair, I can see (and measure--as in body part girth) that I have added some muscle as well as having dropped ~10 lbs. So, the overall body fat loss probably exceeds 10 lbs. No, I don't usually use formal body fat testing any longer. I used to do this constantly, but as I'm not a competitive bodybuilder I saw less and less value in this. I've been training--either bodybuilding or powerlifting--for 25 years now and have a good eye for where I'm at in terms of body fat %. I also fairly recently did an underwater body fat test for an exercise physiology course, as I decided to return to school after many years. This was part of some preparatory course work for entering a M.S. program in Applied Sport Science. So, the point of all this rambling is that while I have no precise measure of my changes in body fat %, I can say with a fair degree of accuracy that they have not decrease by that much--at least not as much as I would have thought they would using T3.

Now, as I said I ASSUME my T3--which is from an UGL--is legit due to the labs reputation and some of the associated side effects. However, this may not be the case as I've found in my research that T3 is quite sensitive to loss of potency due to both heat and time degradation. So, I may run another round after an appropriate break and after I obtain some pharmaceutical T3.

I plan on doing a diurnal saliva cortisol test 8 weeks after my cycle ends (4 weeks PCT + 4 weeks to allow the body to normalize). I'll be using ZRT labs. My understanding is that the saliva diurnal cortisol test is well accepted as a valid indicator to adrenal cortisol levels/function. If I find that my cortisol levels at this time are normal I'll more seriously consider the possibility that the T3 was bad/degraded, as it seems to me that the use of androgens can't be enough to suppress cortisol levels to the point where T3 becomes unable to exert its effects at the cellular level. If this were the case either no one would combine steroids with T3--which is common practice in order to offset the catabolic effects of T3--or everyone would have to add supplemental cortisone to their cycle--which very few people do. Yet most people I'm familiar with have gotten very good "fat burning" effects from combining androgens (even the otc DS) and T3. So, I'm at a loss as to what's going on with me.

I have to say that I've always gotten good results using B-agonists; I was just giving my body a break from them as I've used them pretty extensively over the years--though not so much recently. Also, as I said, I'd never tried T3 and was intrigued by the results that others had gotten with it. All-in-all, this has been an interesting experiment that will lead me to explore possible explanations, which can only serve to make me more knowledgeable about these issues.

My next experiment--before returning to the T3 issue--my be with Albuterol. While I've never tried Albuterol, as I said I've used B-agonists extensively and they simply aren't as tricky to use as hormones. You may not like them, but to the extent that you can tolerate them you will see results.

Seth, any suggestions as to what I can try to increase the effectiveness of my next round with T3--assuming that the problem was not bad/degraded T3?

Thanks for all your help,

P.S. I'll be picking up a copy of your book during my next order at Nutra for their New Year sale. I'm very much looking forward to reading it.

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[crowbar46]

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[sethroberts]

Seth, I do see your point about trying to do too much at once. I'm trying to go from ~285 lbs. down to ~250 Lbs. I've reduced caloric intake and increased overall activity level, specifically cardio as well as reducing carbs. I've managed to drop ~10 lbs. over a 6 week period (now ~275 lbs.). This being my first time using T3 I was under the impression that I would experience a more dramatically elevated metabolism, allowing me either to eat more calories (e.g., "maintenance" level)--which I haven't--and continue to loose weight, or cut calories (which I have) and loose weight at an accelerated rate. However, this does not seem to have happened. To be fair, I can see (and measure--as in body part girth) that I have added some muscle as well as having dropped ~10 lbs. So, the overall body fat loss probably exceeds 10 lbs. No, I don't usually use formal body fat testing any longer. I used to do this constantly, but as I'm not a competitive bodybuilder I saw less and less value in this. I've been training--either bodybuilding or powerlifting--for 25 years now and have a good eye for where I'm at in terms of body fat %. I also fairly recently did an underwater body fat test for an exercise physiology course, as I decided to return to school after many years. This was part of some preparatory course work for entering a M.S. program in Applied Sport Science. So, the point of all this rambling is that while I have no precise measure of my changes in body fat %, I can say with a fair degree of accuracy that they have not decrease by that much--at least not as much as I would have thought they would using T3.

Now, as I said I ASSUME my T3--which is from an UGL--is legit due to the labs reputation and some of the associated side effects. However, this may not be the case as I've found in my research that T3 is quite sensitive to loss of potency due to both heat and time degradation. So, I may run another round after an appropriate break and after I obtain some pharmaceutical T3.

I plan on doing a diurnal saliva cortisol test 8 weeks after my cycle ends (4 weeks PCT + 4 weeks to allow the body to normalize). I'll be using ZRT labs. My understanding is that the saliva diurnal cortisol test is well accepted as a valid indicator to adrenal cortisol levels/function. If I find that my cortisol levels at this time are normal I'll more seriously consider the possibility that the T3 was bad/degraded, as it seems to me that the use of androgens can't be enough to suppress cortisol levels to the point where T3 becomes unable to exert its effects at the cellular level. If this were the case either no one would combine steroids with T3--which is common practice in order to offset the catabolic effects of T3--or everyone would have to add supplemental cortisone to their cycle--which very few people do. Yet most people I'm familiar with have gotten very good "fat burning" effects from combining androgens (even the otc DS) and T3. So, I'm at a loss as to what's going on with me.

I have to say that I've always gotten good results using B-agonists; I was just giving my body a break from them as I've used them pretty extensively over the years--though not so much recently. Also, as I said, I'd never tried T3 and was intrigued by the results that others had gotten with it. All-in-all, this has been an interesting experiment that will lead me to explore possible explanations, which can only serve to make me more knowledgeable about these issues.

My next experiment--before returning to the T3 issue--my be with Albuterol. While I've never tried Albuterol, as I said I've used B-agonists extensively and they simply aren't as tricky to use as hormones. You may not like them, but to the extent that you can tolerate them you will see results.

Seth, any suggestions as to what I can try to increase the effectiveness of my next round with T3--assuming that the problem was not bad/degraded T3?

Thanks for all your help,

P.S. I'll be picking up a copy of your book during my next order at Nutra for their New Year sale. I'm very much looking forward to reading it.

Crowbar

If you are that heavy and trying to lose that much weight then i am assuming that your bodyfat is fairly high -- which suggests that your thyroid system may not be functioning optimally to begin with -- have you had it tested recently?

From an underground source there is always a very real possibility that they item is fake, underdosed or substituted which of course could be a big problem.

It is very common for higher level bodybuilders to use T3 with androgens but they are also often shooting for very low levels of bodyfat. Some androgens are just better to combine than others -- for instance, Deca would be counterproductive to use with T3. The problem is with a lot of these prohormones is that they are unknown quantiities in terms of their effects on things like TBG, CBD 11 beta hydroxyalse etc so we have to guess.

 

[Sub7]

crowbar46,

I must applaud you for your open-minded and investigative attitude.
2 questions

1- have you tried T2? If you can get some (Gaspari's thyrotabs should still be on EBAY) maybe you can try to take them for a few days at a later time when the T3 is out of your system. Lots of guys who report issues like yours say that t2 works unexpectedly well. just try if you can

2- I am sure you read lots of feedback on cortisol blockers. In your opinion, based on what you read scientifically and from user-feedback, are any of the cortisol blockers really much better than old fashioned P.Serine + High Dose Vitamin C? Do they seem to make a bigger difference on cycle, pct or cutting? And finally do they really make much difference at all beyond the initial 7-10 days?

Thanks a lot and best of luck

Sub

 

[crowbar46]

Sub7,

1) yes I tried T2 years ago and it was effective. Iforce just came out with a pure T2 supplement that is a combination of the 2 isomers. I will be giving this a try.

2) I actualy found Primordial Performance's EndoAmp Max (a phosphatidyl serine supplement) to be very effective in allowing me to eat more calories and not gain weight--I've only used it during PCT when I did not want to be cutting calories, but, rather, consuming a hyperclaoric diet so as not to add any further stress to the body as it is recovering its HPTA. Now, I must admit that some of this effect may have been due to supercompensation, as I had just ended a hard 6 week cycle of training and DS use. I am going to be using CEL's Suppress-C after this cycle--in 1 more week. I'll let you know how that goes.

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[crowbar46]

Seth:

1) my body fat % is ~20%.

2) no, I haven't had my thyroid checked. Do you think that it would be more bebeficial to have a diurnal cortisol check or a thyroid--or do I need both?

3) Are there any DS that you know of that:

A) Are a particularly good match for T3?

B) Are a particularly bad match for T3?

Thanks,

Crowbar

 

[sethroberts]

Seth:

1) my body fat % is ~20%.

2) no, I haven't had my thyroid checked. Do you think that it would be more bebeficial to have a diurnal cortisol check or a thyroid--or do I need both?

3) Are there any DS that you know of that:

A) Are a particularly good match for T3?

B) Are a particularly bad match for T3?

Thanks,

Crowbar

It wouldn't hurt to do both but if I had to choose one it would be a full thyroid function panel.

The only DS that I have seen any bloodwork that gives me an idea of how it is effecting thyroid function is Epi. I seems to lower TBG like many other AAS which should make it an ok match with T3.

 

[benj851]

Sub7,

.... Iforce just came out with a pure T2 supplement that is a combination of the 2 isomers. I will be giving this a try.
....

Crowbar

Can you please provide a link? I cannot seem to locate it using search. or pm me a link if you want....Thanks for your help.

 

[crowbar46]

Seth, again thank you very much! It looks like that's the end of this long thread for now. I'll check back with you at some later point after I let my body rest from all this experimentation and have some tests done; I'd like to run them past you to see what they tell you.

Crowbar

 

[crowbar46]

benj851, Nutra carries it, it's called "TT-33"

Crowbar

 

[benj851]

thought that might be what you were talking about. you think that it would be effective? and would I want to use this while on t3?

Thanks for the quick reply.

 

[Sub7]

Cortisol needs to be present in sufficient quantities for T3 to work, right? However, we always think of cortisol as the bad guy and wonder how we can reduce cortisol. Could someone actually end up losing more fat by taking exogenous cortisol (by the exogenous cortisol helping push more of the t3 into the cells).
Is this possible? How likely are we to see such a scenario in real life?

Thanks to Seth and Everyone Else

 

[crowbar46]

You don't want to mess with taking cortisne--i.e., hydrocortisone without monitoring by a doctor!

Crowbar