Dione better than Diol?!?!

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  1. Dione better than Diol?!?!


    It goes against everything I've read in the last 2-3 years involving PHs, but maybe it's possible. Bill L. sites a study comparing 4-Dione and 4-Diol and Pat Arnold attempts to refute it. Gets pretty ugly...

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/avantfo...=ST&f=1&t=2019


  2. Imagine that
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  3. Oh yeah, for those who don't know, "PA System" is Pat Arnold.

  4. I don't trust either of these guys, they're both in it for the money. They're both smart, but they act like children.

  5. I take it with a grain of salt but I would want to see more research on it than besides these two guys.
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  6. actually most people will defend the dione version of 1,4 as opposed to the diol, correct me if im wrong, but i think it has a higher bioavailability than its diol counterpart. for a definitive answer talk to BDC, curt, or yj, they should be able to help u out.

  7. I think the 1,4diol vs 1,4dione is up in the air. Their discussion has to do with 4diol vs andro though.

  8. well if p.a is still saying that the diones r not more bioavail..why doesnt someone ask why he releasde 1-adione first

  9. Originally posted by wojo
    well if p.a is still saying that the diones r not more bioavail..why doesnt someone ask why he releasde 1-adione first
    Actually, PA is siding with the Diol of course since 4-Diol was his patented product. I think that he's since lost the patent.

    In the study it shows the 4-Androdione produced more test than the 4-Diol. Of course, you also have much more estrogen conversion from the Dione.

    It's just one study and doesn't prove anything to me, but it's very interesting, none the less, because it goes against what most people on these boards have accepted as a given.

  10. Originally posted by u4ik_rage


    It's just one study and doesn't prove anything to me, but it's very interesting, none the less, because it goes against what most people on these boards have accepted as a given.
    How's that for a run-on sentence?

  11. who gives a **** which one converts better. Have you ever thought that the diol's have inherent activity???? That makes them NOT prohormones but steroids. 4-AD is not a prohormone. 4 -dione im sure wouldn'thave inherenent activity(as far as i know).

  12. Originally posted by pjorstad
    who gives a **** which one converts better. Have you ever thought that the diol's have inherent activity???? That makes them NOT prohormones but steroids. 4-AD is not a prohormone. 4 -dione im sure wouldn'thave inherenent activity(as far as i know).
    I was just summarizing. If you don't care, you could always hit the back button on your browser.

  13. Originally posted by u4ik_rage


    I was just summarizing. If you don't care, you could always hit the back button on your browser.
    Very true.

  14. Originally posted by pjorstad
    <B>who gives a **** which one converts better. Have you ever thought that the diol's have inherent activity???? That makes them NOT prohormones but steroids. 4-AD is not a prohormone. 4 -dione im sure wouldn'thave inherenent activity(as far as i know). </B>

    actually, 4-ad is not a steroid, it is in fact, a prohormone. just because it has anabolic properties, does not make it a steroidal hormone. its a precursor to one, therefore, its a prohormone.

  15. Originally posted by pjorstad



    Actually why don't you keep your input out until you know what your talking about. Testosterone has "anabolic" propertires but guess what! Its a prohormone because it converts to dht and estrogen!

    Like i said 4-AD is an anabolic steroid.
    Please delete this before people read it.....

  16. you need to think about what you say pjorstad. its without a doubt ok to lay out your views and opinons, but comments like that aint necessary and you should know that. Sage

  17. Originally posted by sage
    you need to think about what you say pjorstad. its without a doubt ok to lay out your views and opinons, but comments like that aint necessary and you should know that. Sage
    Dont worry about it, this comes from the same guy who wants to know if you can smoke fina.....

  18. oh my god pjorstad, i cannot believe what u just said, that has to be one of the single most ignorant things i have ever heard someone say on this forum. im not gonna screw up this thread because it actually has a valid point, so after this, our little argument is over, but there r a few things i have to clear up for u, and i'm gonna do it in terms u can understand. first off, do u even know what a steroid is? its a hormone, so there for testosterone is a steroid. second, 4-ad is not a hormone, so therefore it is not a steroid, and last, lets say u were correct, then how do u explain 4-diol being a steroid, but 4-dione not? christ, i thought this was gonna be a forum without bull****, for more educated people. its one thing to be a newbie and ask questions, but to blatently state false info, then lash out at people who try to correct u, thats just stupid.

  19. Well said.

    ManBeast
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*

  20. Originally posted by drfly
    oh my god pjorstad, i cannot believe what u just said, that has to be one of the single most ignorant things i have ever heard someone say on this forum. im not gonna screw up this thread because it actually has a valid point, so after this, our little argument is over, but there r a few things i have to clear up for u, and i'm gonna do it in terms u can understand. first off, do u even know what a steroid is? its a hormone, so there for testosterone is a steroid. second, 4-ad is not a hormone, so therefore it is not a steroid, and last, lets say u were correct, then how do u explain 4-diol being a steroid, but 4-dione not? christ, i thought this was gonna be a forum without bull****, for more educated people. its one thing to be a newbie and ask questions, but to blatently state false info, then lash out at people who try to correct u, thats just stupid.
    Back off here! Pjorstad is correct. 4-AD is an anabolic steroid, like 1-test, and is found naturally occuring in the blood, just like testosterone. It is a hormone, and thus a steroid, not a PRE-hormone. Doesn't need conversion, like 1-AD.

    As far as whether the dione or diol form of 1,4-Androstadiene is more potent, the competition has already proven Bill's point. Sci-Fit, just knew Bill was wrong and came out with a DIOL version of Boldione called Andro-Poise. A lot of people jumped on this diol product, and everyone was dissappointed. It doesn't come close to the dione.

  21. Originally posted by sage
    you need to think about what you say pjorstad. its without a doubt ok to lay out your views and opinons, but comments like that aint necessary and you should know that. Sage
    Now you've done it. You've got my "dream woman" in your avatar!

  22. quote:

    Back off here! Pjorstad is correct. 4-AD is an anabolic steroid, like 1-test, and is found naturally occuring in the blood, just like testosterone. It is a hormone, and thus a steroid, not a PRE-hormone. Doesn't need conversion, like 1-AD.

    i know i said that i wasnt gonna hijack this thread any further, but im just a little obsessive on matters such as this. first, id like to apologize if i came off kinda strong, its jsut i can get kinda riled up about these things. anyways, what im actually posting to say, is that i have set the record straight on this, 4-AD is not an anabolic steroid. although it does have inherent anabolic activity in the bloodstream, and is naturally occuring, this does not classify it as a steroid, the simple fact that it is not an actual hormone is the reason. it is (as i have stated at least twice now) a pre-cursor to a hormone, hence the reason why people talk about its conversion rate to testosterone. thats exactly what it is, a pre-cursor to testosterone. and if u still dont believe me, ask BDC, or Curt, or YJ, and if that still does not convince u, take a look at Big Cat's prohormone profiles on bb.com, or even at the thread on this board that describes the marketed prohormones. if it wasnt a pre-cursor to a hormone, it would be labeled as a pro-steroid, and wouldnt have a conversion rate.

  23. Once again testerone is a prohormone by your same logic since it converts to estrogen and dht which are both hormones that have an effect on strength and muscle building.


    I believe patrick arnold wasn't aware of 4-AD's inherent activity or at least probably thought there wasn't enough evidence at the time when it first came out so it was marketed strictly as a prohormone.

    I believe 1-AD also has this inherent activity too which is why both of them work so well over the diones and other prohormones for that matter. In fact im not sure if a TRUE prohormone can really work at all since 1-AD and 4-AD aren't strictly prohormones and they are they are considered the best besides 1-test, but that doesn't convert to anything.

  24. actually there right 4-ad is a hormone..dan duchaine said this awhile back too

  25. Below I reprint part of a lengthy steroid article written by one of the renowned steroid "gurus." And nowhere in the entire article were the words Andro, 1-test, or prohormone metioned-EVER! I have highlighted the area wherin he refers to 4-AD as androgenic steroids! This was an article about anabolic steroid cycles, plain and simple. I left out lthe top and bottom thirds. Don't want to impart too much info to the impetuous teenagers. Can't stop 'em from researching on their own, but refuse to condone or help in any way. If anyone over 21 wants to view the entire article, pm me for a URL.

    As I explained in my article, the main two mechanisms are via the androgen receptor (AR) and the estrogen receptor (ER). However, two other factors that can play a role, depending on the particular androgen, are the PR (Progesterone Receptor) and whether the androgen inhibits Testosterone production at the testicular level.

    Nandrolone decanoate is one androgen which can suppress LH via more than one mechanism. It has the ability to interact with the PR in addition to its avid binding to the AR. While there's some evidence supporting the idea that it affects Testosterone production at the testicular level, the decrease in LH seen in various studies indicates that this probably isn't the case. This is essentially why deca is such a suppressive androgen in terms of endogenous Testosterone production.


    Obviously, we can't use androgens that bind extremely well to the AR, aromatize to estradiol, or inhibit Testosterone production at the testicular level, as this too will cause suppression. Essentially, the only androgen which I can say without a doubt inhibits endogenous Testosterone production at the testicular level is fluoxymesterone. This is simply because studies have demonstrated a reduction of Testosterone without any concurrent reduction or suppression of LH levels.

    So, that leaves us with essentially two androgens for our "ultra-safe" cycle, and those would be methenolone and 4-AD. The reason for this is that we ideally want an androgen that doesn't aromatize or is 17-AA, yet is able to bind well to the AR, yet not too well. Methenolone has been shown to bind less avidly than nandrolone (but more so than Testosterone), doesn't aromatize, and isn't 17-AA, nor is it thought to affect endogenous Testosterone production at the testicular level. It obviously fits the bill.

    4-ADis thought to work via non-AR mediated mechanisms, and thus should also be used. It too doesn't aromatize nor is it 17-AA or thought to affect endogenous Testosterone production at the testicular level.

    Both androgens also have quite a bit of anecdotal evidence supporting their lack of suppression upon LH secretion. However,if you wish to go with just a "safe" cycle instead of theaforementioned "ultra safe" cycle, then we can use any one,two, or three of the following steroids for five or six weeks. Simply pick and choose. (I've chosen to group them simply for informational purposes.)

    17-Alpha Alkylated

    Methandrostenolone
    Oxandrolone
    Stanozolol
    Fluoxymesterone
    Methyltesterone

    Non-17-AA

    Trenbolone
    Nandrolone
    Testosterone
    Boldenone
    Methenolone
    4-AD

    Binds Avidly to AR

    Methenolone
    Boldenone
    Trenbolone
    Testosterone
    Nandrolone
    Oxandrolone

    Does Not Bind Well to AR

    Methandrostenolone
    Fluoxymesterone
    4-AD


    Binds to Microsomal AR

    Stanozolol

  26. This is how I see it... A pro-hormone is some thing that has to convert to the parent hormone to be active(steroid).. 4-ad is both.. It does convert to TEST making it a pro-hormone and it is active by itself making it a steroid... It is known in the industry as a pro-hormone so who realy cares thats what we call it. We know as users that is is active by itself and it converts to test so no big deal. Its not worth arguing about. Talk to ya..

    &nbsp;

  27. I agree Curt Nice posts BTW Benz and Pogue. How we classify it isn't nearly as important to me as how we use it!

  28. Originally posted by jweave23
    I agree Curt Nice posts BTW Benz and Pogue. How we classify it isn't nearly as important to me as how we use it!
    Thanks, jweave. I felt the need to jump in there because everyone attacked poor pjorstad and he was CORRECT. I will always defend someone who is flamed like that for no reason, especially when they are right. pjorstad's a very knowledgeable bro, and gets way too much flak.
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