New article on Sarms S-4....pretty good read.
12-14-2009 04:59 PM
New article on Sarms S-4....pretty good read.
Summer of Sarms
by Anthony Roberts
This past Summer, I’d let my weight balloon up to about 100kg (220 pounds) or so…emphasis on the “or so” part because I probably weighed a bit more. I kind of ate right for a few weeks and lost a few pounds, but really only a few…I was always within a big meal of being as heavy as I’d ever been. This post will likely appeal to the more training-oriented readers that I have, but will also give people a pretty good idea of how I used Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators as both PCT and for a stand alone cutting cycle, with training and diet included. So I made the decision to shelve my prescription and stop taking anabolic steroids -I also made the decision to get serious with my conditioning. I’m almost 32 years old, and 20 minutes of cardio 5x a week doesn’t do it for me any longer…especially since I’m not overly committed to dieting…I eat enough healthy food, but I eat a bit of garbage too.
I also enjoy a pint or two after a hard day’s work…and I work twice as hard and twice as long as most people…hence, I enjoy a pint or six at the end of a day.
The only thing I used for the entire Summer, and up until right now, was a SARM- selective androgen receptor modulator – colloquially known as S4. The original literature I’d read about it several years ago said that it had an anabolic rating roughly equal to testosterone on a mg for mg basis. That’s basically true…if I were to take 100mgs of testosterone (*suspension or maybe propionate) per day, I’d get pretty similar results to what I’d experienced with S-4. People will talk about this study or that study, or this dose or that dose, but honestly 100mgs is the sweet spot for me (perhaps because it worked out to an almost exact 1mg/kg/day). Since I’d used S-4 (a SARM) before and knew what to expect…100mgs/day after a workout was the dose I felt most comfortable with. At that dose, even though the medical studies will say otherwise, I felt like I was using about half as much testosterone propionate. In other words, for me, 100mgs/ED of S4 = 100mgs/EOD of test prop, in terms of gains. After awhile, because I get some vision problems, I drop the S4 to workout days only, meaning I take 1-2 days off of it per week.
Aaron Singerman, a friend of mine, had used a similar dose and didn’t feel much…but he’s much bigger than me (50 lbs and 6 inches) and his own hormone replacement strategy is quite different than mine; his cruising dose is about double what I take at the upper end with my prescription. Another friend of mine, Carl, found his experience with S-4 to be midway between Aaron’s and mine…meaning he got a boost from them, but nothing compared to heavy androgen use. Johnny, another friend of mine, used that same dose of 100mgs/day after his first cycle, along with a reasonable PCT and was able to keep much of what he’d gained. People will quibble with my ideas on dosing S-4, but it’s doubtful that they have as much experience or feedback. Suffice it to say, 100mgs/day, on workout days, is the way I think the stuff is best used.
So, with my 100mgs/day of S4, I jumped into my workouts…
My workouts are broken up into blocks (listed in descending importance):
Strength (self explanatory)
GPP (General Physical Preparedness, aka Metabolic Conditioning, aka sprint work, interval training, etc…)
Mobility and Stretching (self explanatory)
Cardio (difficult, but mostly steady state cardio done at 150 -190 bpm…this is between 80 and 100% of my max heart rate. No, that’s not a typo.)
A strength block would have one exercise, with the reps and sets consistent with Prilepin’s Table. If I’m doing sets of 3 reps, then I’m doing 5 sets total. That exercise is one block (i.e. those 5 sets = one block). Mondays I might do lower body, Tuesdays upper, etc…you get the idea. I don’t do a bodypart split because that’s for D-bags. Sometimes I do dynamic stuff (in depth jumps, box jumps, etc..), but I file that under strength, because I’m lazy, and it’s dynamic strength in the end. I think this is where the S4 really helps me out…I’m trying to increase strength while losing weight, and that’s not easy. My ultimate goal is to get down to middleweight, which is 185lbs.
A GPP block is four minutes long, nonstop. A good example would be doing 5x 100m sprints at level 10 on the C2 Rowing machine, with 30-35 seconds of rest between sets. I aim for 15 seconds per sprint, and I usually come pretty close for all 5 sets. Another example of a MetCon block would be rowing 1k meters in under 3m 30s. If you’ve never tried this, give it a shot next time you’re in the gym…it’s harder than it sounds.
When I do two MetCon blocks in a row, they usually take the form of a nonstop circut…ten deadlifts with 135 lbs + 10 burpees, in descending sets (10 of each, 9 of each, etc…), or maybe sets of Kettlebell burpees (you do burpees with kettlebells in your hands…i.e. it’s a burpee with a KB clean & Jerk at the end), or an 8 minute Kettlebell + bodyweight circut. The main thing here is that I’m gasses…in other words, I can’t talk, I’m having difficulty counting reps, etc…the point is to get in some GPP conditioning work that transfers to athletics. Try the deadlift/burpee one…that’s my Monday morning.
My stretching and mobility work is pretty standard. I’m getting older, at least for an athlete who isn’t Brett Farve, and I’ve had multiple surgeries. Dynamic Stretching, Static Stretching, foam rolling, etc…all help me keep up with my training and not get too battered. A block is 4 minutes.
My Cardio is done on machines for the most part. Either the treadmill, stepmill, etc…I do a lot of running because 90% of all sports involve running. One block is 20 minutes.
So here’s how my workouts look on most days, 5x a week (I do a bit of just cardio on weekends, and sometimes a day of just body weight work):
Strength Block x1
GPP Block x1
Strength Block x2
Mobility and Stretching Block x 1-2
GPP Block x 2
Cardio Block x1
I’m getting about 10 sets of strength work, 12 minutes of GPP, 4 minutes of stretching and mobility, and 20 minutes of cardio. That’s how I did it all Summer, and that’s how I do it now.This is all done in the A.M. before 9.
In the afternoon, at lunch (1PM), I do another 10-20 minutes of bodyweight stuff and kettlebell work. That’s a hybrid cardio/GPP block, and I do between 2 and 7 total blocks. Once the Summer was over, I dropped the PM workout.
My diet was 50% on target, and what I mean by that is that I plan the first three meals of the day, and I don’t deviate. I get a PWO Protein shake, some eggwhites + a yolk, and Salmon, in that order (usually) for my first three meals. The last three are a clusterf*ck. When you’re working out 2x a day, you can get away with a diet that’s not spot on. My first workout is done before I eat, because I hate eating in the morning…what I enjoy eating is caffeine and ephedrine, and that’s what I have as soon as I wake up. The PWO workout shake is what I wash the S4 down with.
In the end, I’m sitting at just under 200lbs right now, and my strength is very similar to what it was at 220-225. I can hit double my body weight in all three lifts, totally raw – no belt, no wraps, no nothing, and run a pretty good 5k time also. Again, my goals are athletically oriented, and I get a lot of questions about how I train, so right now, this is the best example.
And, I’m totally AAS-free…I’m not using anything except S4, and getting stronger and in better shape. If you’re looking for a great PCT product, I can’t recommend S4 enough, and if you’re looking to get off AAS for awhile (for whatever reason), I think it’s a must-have supplement. If you’re just looking to cut weight and keep your strength up, it’s awesome. As long as I stay consistent, I’m expecting to roll into this next Summer walking around at 190 or so, in much better condition, but with the same strength I had at 220-225.
12-14-2009 06:25 PM
Awesome info! Thanks for the post
12-15-2009 06:10 PM
here is another.....
SARMS: Will It Soon Make Steroids Obsolete?
As you may have heard, SARMS is a fascinating step in the field of anabolic enhancement. It’s a drug that is “selective” in its muscle building properties in that instead of having all the effects of testosterone, it essentially is targeted specifically to muscle. In this way most of the negative side effects are avoided. A dream drug, right? Well, maybe. But there’s a catch. There’s always a catch. But in a straight up evaluation SARMS is pretty damn impressive.
I won’t get too much into the science. I’m not sure even the experts can tell you how and exactly why this stuff works. Oh sure, they’ll tell you about molecule rings and subdivisions of nano particles and all that, but nobody seems to know the full story and the bottom line on all of this is it’s application for bodybuilding purposes and in that regard, SARMS is so new, it’s really a matter of speculation and personal experience. This is mine.
I’m not big on experimentation or pioneering at this stage of my life, but SARMS was too intriguing to pass up, so I gave it a go. I kept dosages at 30 mls, reason being there’s a weird side effect of blurred vision at higher dosages. It isn’t so much the side effect itself that bothers me as much as WHY this side effect occurs that CONCERNS me. (Answers? Anyone?) Also, anecdotal evidence shows that mega dosing does not bring significantly increased results. Like many drugs, such as aspirin, there’s a “sweet spot” where this stuff works best. Plus, contrary to claims that SARMS is non suppressive some studies show that it indeed is suppressive at high dosages or over extended periods of time. This is only logical. I’ve made this argument about Proviron. The literature says it does not suppress but that is under controlled conditions. ANY exogenous source of anything MUST be suppressive to some degree.
Right off the bat I heard the taste was awful so I put the drops in a capsule and took it that way. As far as how I’d apply the dosing, I debated whether I should keep my standard 100mgs a week of HRT or replace it completely with the SARMS. I decided it would be most accurate to split the difference and do a half dose. In this way I didn’t rely too much on the SARMS, nor would the fact that it was “extra” distort my perspective.
No doubt, the stuff works. Within a few days I started felling mildly“ juiced” -- not super explosive gains, (though I used a conservative dosage) but a little denser, harder and fuller, so I know it’s effective and that’s all I need to know. At this point, I don’t need to gain 20 pounds, nor do I have the inclination to do so. There’s been no bloat at all, which was nice. Libido was good. On occasion, I run a double dose of HRT and this was very similar.
It became apparent to me that in terms of effects, this stuff was very similar to oral primobolan, which is also a non 17AA oral that is non suppressive at low dosages. And although SARMS isn’t cheap, anyone who’s used oral primobolan knows that it’s a real bank account breaker and ultimately impractical. SARMS is an attractive alternative.
So how can this stuff best be used? That’s up to the user. For guys looking to do a cycle with fewer sides, it makes a great stack with most anything. For advocates of short cycles you can probably start the cycle with SARMS (with minimal suppression) and even taper off with it after PCT begins. In that way you can stretch a 6 week cycle into a 10 week cycle with little or no further suppression. I see no benefit of using it as a part of PCT however. I assume it will not restore HPTA function. I don't see how it could. I may be wrong.
In my case, I’m considering using it as an occasional alternative HRT. Once every 2 months I do a shot of either hcg or HMG and then use a half dosage of T for a week or two. (Since natural T is elevated). Using SARMS in place of the enanthate seems like a logical choice since it would extend the effects of the hcg and HMG. I may be able to use them less often. We’ll see. Anthony Roberts has said he’s completely replaced his standard HRT with SARMS and would never go back. Then again, Anthony is still in his 20’s. Things change as you get up in years.
Since SARMS is far more anabolic than testosterone (again, similar to primobolan or anavar), it requires massive amounts of Protein to show its true muscle building potential. A high Protein diet is essential as well as having some Protein drinks or maybe some gear on hand to fill in the gaps. I can’t say for sure what a cycle of SARMS would be like though my gut instinct tells me some testosterone would still be needed for best gains. Then again, doing that sort of thing defeats the purpose, doesn’t it?
If the idea of increased anabolism without suppression appeals to you, (and why not? ) then maybe some SARMS is the way to go. Experienced juicers may miss the benefit of the increased libido and aggression that goes along with a cycle with testosterone though. I guess it all depends on how greedy you want to get. : )
Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing more tests on this stuff. Exactly how much does it raise total T? How about FreeT? DHT? Does it have the pro-heart factor of real testosterone? Does it avoid ALL potential prostate problems? How are lipid and liver values after long term use? How suppressive is it at mega doses for muscle building purposes? Maybe the point is moot because of the vision problems. Applications as of now appear a bit limited, but that’s not to say they’re without merit. Rememeber, there aren’t any tests on veterinary steroids either. Not on humans at least. Why does eq cause anxiety? Why does tren cause coughing? That’s enough to keep me away, but to others, it’s just a mild inconvenience. The results are worth it. Are the results of SARMS worth it? Then again, maybe they’re LESS risky than any steroid. That’s the big question. And a fascinating on at that, wouldn’t you say?
There have been a lot of new supplements on the market this year, and a few more coming out in 2010,some of which I am proud t have helped design. It’s exciting to see new potential. But the thing with all these supplements is that they’re using time tested natural ingredients. When it comes to chemical manipulations, be it the form of a pro-hormone or a research chemical, the “unknown” factor is far greater, even if the science is more sophisticated.
I don’t think SARMS will ever be a “sole” compound for anyone looking for massive gains. So that puts us at square one. Where does this stuff belong? Or maybe, just maybe, it’s the first step in a new direction of anabolics.
For now, I’d be conservative with SARMS. Although it’s touted as a healthier alternative to testosterone, there’s still a big question mark regarding long term effects. The bottle reads “Not for human consumption” so obviously this is not legal or approved for any purpose. But the more adventurous among you may want to replace one of the compounds in your next cycle with a dosing of SARMS and see for yourself how it works out for you. I would, however, like to see the legit companies come out and openly discuss applications. Those familiar with AG guys know the frustration of hiding behind the “you’re not supposed to take this but… wink, wink, “ approach. Why not be up front with the community you’re dealing with? If the authorities are going to come down on these companies I doubt the “For research only” disclaimer is going to make much difference. Meanwhile, I believe a lot of consumers would feel better if the product was what it claimed, especially since ANYBODY can use the SARMS title, even if it isn’t legitimate SARMS. There are even SARMS “supplements” which have absolutely no active ingredients. They’re just cashing in on the name and using the SARMS literature as a marketing hype.
So is SARMS too good to be true or is it the wave of the future? Maybe it’s something in-between. If it turns out to be nothing more than a mild anabolic with few side effects it may very well be a nice addition to the bodybuilders lifestyle. But be careful. Since the stuff in not regulated there’s already a bunch of bogus stuff floating around. Proceed with caution – on all fronts. For me, I’ll continue to use it in moderation. For now.
12-15-2009 06:16 PM
Who is the author of the second article?
Also, you guys know who Anthony Roberts is, right?
12-15-2009 06:29 PM
I just read the article.
Have you guys noticed that Anthony Roberts is the only "steroid guru" who gushes over SARMs?
Oh, and what a coincidence... On his website he has a link within that very same article to buy SARMs from another site (which he likely owns as well).
If you go to his website and click "About Anthony Roberts", you will see his qualifications - a degree in English and another in Philosophy. Neither of which is even related to science. I think the best "qualification" he has going for him is his MENSA membership. No doubt, he seems like a smart guy to me but I haven't figured out why so many people consider him such a "guru". On other message boards I've seen people flamed by board vets just for referencing an article of his. He seems quite good at marketing but I'm not sold on his credibility.
I'm not saying he doesn't provide good information, I'm sure he does, all I'm saying is be skeptical when you are reading AAS information and do a little background checking on any "guru" you come across.
12-15-2009 07:01 PM
i agree i think the guy has some good info but at the same time after reading about how he got sued by that one forum for whatever fraud he did and how hes really just a drunk/juicer/addict, it makes me question his credibility
12-15-2009 09:03 PM
other write up was from Nelson Montana, there are about 5 mods running logs over at EF. Should make for an interesting read.
01-10-2010 06:28 PM
I know for a fact that Roberts does not own ***********.com. They are the only legit company with s4. He may be a customer, but he does not own the site.
01-10-2010 08:56 PM
just curious as to why or how you know they are the only reputable seller. Not many people sell it but I always hear this is the only legit seller. Any info on whether the seller of bulk powder is legit or not
Originally Posted by junkyarddogzz
01-11-2010 01:25 AM
How do you know who owns and/or is partners with the site? Also, how do you know AR isn't getting some sort of kickback for plugging that link? Not calling you out, I'm genuinely curious.
Besides, that doesn't prove he's a credible source. Again, look at the guy's credentials. I was just reading a thread the other day on another site that came up in a google search where Dr. Crisler and another (I think it was William Llewelyn) where taking turns ripping him apart for being a egotistical loudmouth hack. I got a pretty good chuckle out of it.
AR definitely posses some talent, but most of it resides in his marketing skills.
01-11-2010 12:15 PM
I am on of those people. but his info is good, but his credability is crap.
Originally Posted by Libertarian
so i've learned to find better, more reliable sources of info.
anyhow, sarms aren't all they are cracked up to be. if you really read into the compounds, real lab testing done. you will find out they do cause hpta shutdown, should never be used during pct, and also aren't worth the money right now.
01-11-2010 12:39 PM
Well I sure as heck wouldn't pay $170 or whatever for a couple grams of it. How much shutdown are we talking? I haven't seen anyone be patient enough to keep the doses in the proper range. I went the safer route and assumed there will be shutdown so I'm doing 8 weeks with a TDB anabolic the last 4 weeks followed by a normal PCT.
Originally Posted by jbryand101b
I shouldn't use Saw Palmetto during the cycle portion because it blocks the androgen receptors indiscriminately, right?
01-11-2010 01:02 PM
as far as shutdown, i dont think it's on the level of something like superdrol. but from what i've read, the 4 sarms that are out now, all of them will effect hpta function to some degree. I posted this information in a thread a while back, maybe i'll look for it and bump it so you can read.
I wouldn't know, i've never used it, or intended to use saw palmetto, and so, never researched it.
I was under the impression though that it helps control dht conversion. just a guess though. i could be wrong.
01-11-2010 04:06 PM
I wonder if the price will come down over time?
01-11-2010 04:12 PM
It doesn't cost that much, just everyone is buying it for 7x the cost because they don't want to spend $20 on a scale
Originally Posted by Screwtape
01-11-2010 06:31 PM
are you talking about buying it in bulk powder form?
Originally Posted by dpfisher
How can you get it at 1/7 of the price? if you are talking about powder dont you need to add a bunch of chemicals to get into liquid form?
01-11-2010 08:14 PM
pretty cheap, $125 for 8 weeks worth? Compare that tovar and that cheeaaappp
As for shutdown, It causes zero. The people that claimed it did were coming off of full hardcore cycles and should be shut down.
I have been using it and have experienced no shutdown at all. My testicles haven't had any athrepy.
As for Roberts, yeah he has an ego and and burns alot of bridges, but a lot of his info is good. But dont take his word for it. Its blowing up on EF, people with blood-work and all. There will be tons of info flowing around soon.
01-11-2010 08:18 PM
because the guy(chavo) that brought s4 to the for-front only backs the sarms search guys. He stated how hard s4 is to make do to compounds used in producing. The stuff by lion and chem is not the same. Unless the are buying it from SS and then cutting it there is no way its legit.
Originally Posted by bigbeef
That may explain why the sell half the amount for a higher price.
01-12-2010 12:26 AM
This is only a measure of COMPLETE shutdown. You could have very very low test and your balls would be fine.
Originally Posted by junkyarddogzz
01-12-2010 01:23 AM
So this is at the 50mg/ day dose and you got good results?
Originally Posted by junkyarddogzz
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