- 12-01-2009, 12:37 AM
On another forum I received a response to a question as follows:
"if you look at post cycle bloodwork from people running pulse cycles vs. those running standard cycles, theyre equally shutdown. also, things like liver values and testosterone are not going to come close to rebounding by any significant amount during just 24-48 hours off the hormone, especially when you consider the half life of some of these compounds. this gives many people a false sense of security in running these hormones longer then they should be and end up worse for it in the long run. theres many other issues with it that im sure others will chime in on but basically the logic behind pulsing is flawed and dated. its about 1% legit and 99% broscience."
It seems the majority of knowledgeable people over here support the idea of pulsing, but on some other forums people are completely against it. Is their evidence backing up this guys statement? It always made sense to me that taking less of the ph and having designated off days would definately help you rebound testosterone and cause less liver damage but I never found bloodwork evidence supporting this either. This has me slightly discouraged, not that I couldn't switch to a full cycle, but obviously, I want the most out of it with the least sides, but if the benefits of a full cycle outweigh the sides, I'd choose that.
- 12-01-2009, 02:08 AM
As far as HPTA function is concerned, I think there is a lot of truth to that statement. But, if pulsing to reduce liver hepatoxicity, I think pulsing does have some merit.
I think where the "pusling" concept falls apart is when people are using the compounds to the point that it causes shutdown and then for some reason thinking that the shutdown isn't as severe. In this case, as far as HPTA function is concerned, I think that guy is right - you are no better off.
I tend to subscribe to the idea that Bill Roberts talks about, which is that HPTA shutdown is a two-stage process. Once you've been shutdown for somewhere around 3 weeks, recovery comes much, much slower. I've talked about this multiple times when discussing the 2-week protocol, but here is the quote again:Originally Posted by Bill Roberts
I think pulsing is good for two things:
1. Avoiding shutdown completely. For example, I am taking 10mg of Superdrol once per week. This isn't enough to cause HPTA shutdown, but I have benefited nicely from even this small amount of of the steroid - increased glycogen, increased strength, increased feeling of well-being, etc.
2. Reducing liver toxicity. For example, some people might be running a cycle consisting of multiple compounds that includes a fairly toxic oral like Superdrol. Instead of taking SD everyday, you might opt for every other day. This way you could take the compound for a longer period of time with less stress on the liver. Of course, as far as the HPTA is concerned, there really aren't any benefits here.
- 12-01-2009, 02:18 AM
I haven't heard of people doing 2 week cycles before. How common is this and does this make you likely to keep a super high percentage of your gains?
12-01-2009, 02:20 AM
Check this thread out for info on the 2-week protocol: Pulsing M-drol
You might want to start reading from about post #25 on.
12-01-2009, 07:18 AM
There are other benefits to pulsing other than the health ones too. Easier to keep gains as your body adapts to the size/weight gain. Easier to maintain strenght gains, muscles getting used to the new weights, more training sessions per body part while your muscles are filled with the glycogen/water. Great for busy people like me who miss workouts....provides me with better chance of getting workouts in after I have missed some.
12-01-2009, 10:02 AM
if this thread turned into being about 2 week cycles that'd be great I'm really interested in the idea now.
12-01-2009, 10:44 AM
im not even going to touch this one, hope some of the experts come in here. two week cycles? smh. i've never pulsed a cycle, so i cant comment on it. but I thought each dose was supposed to be high than normal. like instead of taking 10mg two times each day, you'd take 30mg pre workout on like mwf. idk, i'll prolly never do it.
Olympus labs super pct, don't cycle without it. It's the best IMO. Get some an you'll be glad you did Olympus labs rep
12-01-2009, 11:24 AM
12-01-2009, 02:02 PM
Any idea on wether the two weeks off period would be enough for estrogen levels to return to normal and SHBG levels also? Main reason being that would a 2 week on 2 week off create more risk for on cycle or post cycle gyno to occur as opposed to a 4 week MWF pulse?
I beleive it was Seth Roberts who was speaking about SHBG in this forums anabolics section in regards to why people using SD experience gyno. Hey Seth...if your lurking here since you look for interesting convo's...Maybe you could enlighten us with some info too?
12-01-2009, 02:25 PM
I think the reason why people gyno with Superdrol is because of bad PCT protocols. It's ridiculous how people actually trust OTC stuff when it comes to PCT for these powerful steroids. I'm not convinced that if a proper PCT is run using an actual SERM after a SD cycle that there would be much of a risk at all of gyno. It's the people who run OTC aromatase inhibitors as their PCT who get gyno via estrogen rebound after a SD cycle.
Again, I'm no expert and maybe I'm not the one to ask, but I really doubt the risk of gyno would be greater when running the 2-weeker so long as it were executed properly. For example, estrogen control is very important in my opinion, and I plan on running an AI at least during the "on" weeks at a low dose. In fact, I would probably run an AI the entire time, including the 2-week "off" periods at a very low dose, and then bump it up during the "on" weeks. Keep in mind you should always, in my opinion, include an aromatizing compound during every cycle with Testosterone being the obvious choice (although some believe compounds like Dbol or even hCG would suffice for the 2-weekers, not that I would ever recommend it personally). During the 2-week "off" periods, a SERM should be run the entire time and once you finish a series of 2-week "on" periods (most people do about 3 at a time it seems) you follow it up with a "standard" PCT protocol - something like Nolva 40/40/20/20. Basically, so long as estrogen control is considered, which it really should be a consideration in EVERY cycle, there is no reason to think (in MY opinion) that the risk of gyno would be higher than it is with other cycles.
12-01-2009, 03:44 PM
Everything I say is fictional and for entertainment purposes only. Do not ask me for sources. I dont have any.
12-01-2009, 10:50 PM
One thing that is overlooked is that serms are very toxic, long term studies show extended use is very bad for the liver, Eric from primordial has some nice threads about serm side effects...with the lack of research on steriods and serms used by builders, sometimes we put all the blame on the steriod and not on the substances used in PCT...the more you look up side effects of serms they are pretty serious too, however the nice thing about using them is they get you going again, help maintain gains, and prevent you having to buy a wonderbra
One of the major ideas of pulsing is to try to lessen side effects and reduce the need for a serm, to be as easy on the body as possible
I personaly will be doing a pulse soon and not use a serm athough one will be on hand, and will have bloodwork done right after to see how it effected my natural hormones...hopefully some other people will do this as well
12-01-2009, 11:37 PM
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12-02-2009, 03:19 AM
2 weeks could be pretty decent depending on the compound. 2 weeks of something like Dbol might give you 3-5 lbs or so that stick around. If it only takes a week of PCT to get back to normal you stand a chance of making above normal gains during PCT if you're running a full PCT too.
Edit: Actually I might grab some M1,4add and try it with that in the future.
12-02-2009, 09:02 AM
The piece he is obviously missing is that although the pulse cycle is longer calendar time, it ends up being same total dosage of compound as the shorter straight cycle. So whether you take 500mg of superdrol as 25 days @ 20 a day, or whether you take the 500mg as 30 preworkout MWF for a little under 6 weeks its not like the pulsing could cause more liver or other damage. The half life of most of these compounds is pretty short, under 8 hours so taking doses 48 hours apart should mean full clearance and start of recovery.
As far as benefits of full cycle outweighing the sides, thats something you can't tell for sure until its over. I know people whose blood pressure will shoot up by 40 points on 20mg of superdrol, mine goes up by less than 10 on as high as 40mg. So what sides you will experience are totally a guess. Heck, what precisely is in the bottle you buy is largely a guess. Most of the manufacturers are just buying powder from china and having a 3rd party encapsulate and package it without it ever getting tested as to purity or whats in it.
12-02-2009, 08:59 PM
pulsing weaker steroids is dumb, IMHO. for me at least, Epistane does nothing to my BP or my liver values at 40mg for months at a time....which is good, because it takes awhile to really start to show gains. pulsing would be even slower, with little upside.
pulsing superdrol makes a little more sense as it is considerably more toxic (hits my BP and cholesterol) and suppressive.
12-02-2009, 09:17 PM
Hey OP I know the thread you are speaking of.
I am personally just not a fan of pulsing. Just seems like it is just trying to reinvent the wheel. There may be some merit to it but mainly on only a few compounds (SD, Epi basically) but for the most part I feel it makes more sense just to run a cycle if you want to play with steroids.
The big problem I see is a lot of newer users completely buying into it and thinking a full cycle = horrible. And then I see a lot of "pulse cycles" that take the concept and run with it the way they want (i.e. random times when they take them, random amounts, using wrong types of compounds etc)
Lib: You mentioned only taking 10mg of SD per week? I have a hard time believing that would make any real impact on gains, especially with the short half life.
I also think that because you run something past a magic two week mark you are completely shut down and will have a horrible time getting back. (I know that is more Roberts theory not your own.) Two week protocols are something I would not prescribe to myself. Maybe just opinion though.
12-02-2009, 09:23 PM
However you even said it yourself, the main problems are shown in long term studies. The liver toxicity and other problems are shown most from use of SERMs at higher dosages for long term use in cancer patients, meaning years and years of steady use. 4 weeks on lower than therapeutic dose is not going to cause these problems.
12-02-2009, 09:28 PM
12-02-2009, 09:45 PM
12-02-2009, 10:21 PM
I have always failed to see how using a serm for 4-6 weeks constitutes this horrible toxcity people speak of when the studies have been done on patients whom consume the drugs at higher doses and for a much longer time period...
I have had my values tested from using nolva at 6 weeks and my overall values were much closer to normal then when I was 'on'.
12-02-2009, 10:41 PM
That said, I do wonder if such dosing protocols would have other negative effects. Even 10mg/week of Superdrol is surely enough to have your hormone levels fluctuating. I know because I've gotten a little back acne since I started this, which I take as a sign of fluctuating hormone levels. Could 1x week pulsing over a long period of time have a long-term cumulative negative effect on HPTA function? I'm leaning towards "probably not", but I guess we don't know for sure.
12-02-2009, 11:08 PM
wow there's a lot to address
1) liver toxicity
A) let's agree that the total liver toxicity is strictly a function of the volume of oral compounds being ingested, and that pulsing merely dilutes this volume over a longer time period
B) Toxicity and SERMS - overstated to sell OTC products! How many bodybuilders get hospitalized for hitting the nolva too hard? That's right, 0.
A) "if you look at post cycle bloodwork from people running pulse cycles vs. those running standard cycles, theyre equally shutdown"
WTF does this mean? There's so many variables in here... if you lock the variable Time then the straight cycle obviously results in more shutdown. If you lock the variable Volume of steroids ingested, then obviously pulsing will result in less shutdown as the doses are diluted over more time.
I noticed the natural testosterone rebounds firsthand... when I ran Epi for 8 weeks up to 50mg 3x a week I noticed testicular size was restored on the mornings of my off days. So even late in the cycle, i wasn't really experiencing any significant shrinkage, as my boys were going through cycles, and coming back up to size on off day mornings. I got off that cycle feeling like the shutdown was almost negligible.
B) the natural rebound of testosterone isn't 99% broscience, this is scientific fact. Testosterone is released cyclically... Pulsing just lines up the doses to allow SOME of the cyclical rebound.
And yes this means that shutdown is greatly reduced vs. running the compound everday
3) 2 on 2 off
Yes this has merit but here's my gripe, what's the magic with 14 days? As I stated before I could run M1T for < 14 days and become more shutdown than running a weaker compound for 4 weeks. So what's the magic with the 2 week mark?
I'm not saying it's bull****, but I'm saying that the strength of the compound used is important. I know for a fact that people have done M1T 2 weekers and gotten way shutdown, which doesn't support the idea that within 2 weeks the shutdown is very minor and ONLY when exceeding 2 weeks can the shutdown become more drastic
4) Gain keepability
One thing that i forgot to mention is that the keepability of gains is drastically improved on a pulse. Obviously because you are diluting the gains over more time, the body has more time to adapt to them and can thus retain them better.
This is probably one of the biggest advantages that you can achieve with pulsing. Especially with toxic orals like Superdrol where normally you are limited to 4 week durations... On a pulse you can do 6, 7, even 8 weeks. If you are making the same amount of gains but making them over 8 weeks, you WILL keep more of the gains.
I think of shutdown as a product of several variables S = (steroid shutdown factor)*(duration)*(saturation factor)
where the steroid shutdown factor relates to the potency of the steroid and the dose used and the saturation factor is a variable of relatively little weight that I think of as a pulsing factor I.E. if you take the full dose first thing in the morning vs. throughout the day then less saturation is achieved and a greater amount of natural recovery can be made... YES there is still some anabolic left in the system by the end of the day but I believe *some* amount of recovery is made anyway...
Here is a question to ponder, say you have been taking SD at 40mg ed for a couple weeks and then switch to 10mg ed; does the shutdown increase, decrease, or stay the same?
I think it decreases... I think the body is always trying to fight the shutdown, so any chance you give it to recover, and it will... There is a level of shutdown at 40mg ed of SD that you cannot achieve with 10mg ed.
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12-03-2009, 05:42 PM
12-03-2009, 07:10 PM
Yeah i agree about diminishing returns and dose, steroids would have such bad tendency for abuse if gains scaled linearly with dose lol. Stretching a cycle out over more time should always result in better gains and that is why pulsing is so nice. These orals like Superdrol you can't really use long enough to have a good gain retention rate, pulsing comes in and fixes the problem, an old thread on here, the pulsing results thread, shows the results of a user who pulsed SD for ~9 weeks up to 30mg iirc and the results were fantastic, always wanted to try 8 weeks, 30mg 3x a week.
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12-03-2009, 07:13 PM
yeah, i tend to think that passing 1.5-2lbs a week is that breakpoint for maintainability. if its under that, its not too hard to keep the gains. Over that it starts becoming much harder.
12-03-2009, 08:32 PM
Well I've been on the 2 week style cycle and will be finished on the 10th(starting pct on 11th) so I will post up my results. I know you said the quicker you gain the muscle the harder it is to keep, but I'm hoping on my hpta restoring itself quickly and allowing me to keep my gains. I'll be using toremifine and diesel test pro cycle for pct. Any ideas on the dosing for toremifene? I also have nolva and clomid if needed but I think the toremifene is preferred.
12-03-2009, 08:37 PM
I just had this other idea which I don't think I've heard before....What if you bridged a 2 week straight cycle into a week or 2 week pulse? So that during the pulse week you would slowly begin recovering, yet still gaining muscle. Possibly using a serm on your off days? Then on the 4th or 5th week, however you wanted to run it, you started your full pct. Just an idea...Maybe also lower the dosage of the pulse(where as usually you actually up the dose), so its a smaller dosage than in the straight cycle. I'm basing this idea partially off of unreal's comment about if you lower your dosage from 40mg to 10mg, you become less shutdown.
12-03-2009, 09:11 PM
12-03-2009, 09:32 PM
I don't think you're quite understanding what I meant. Instead of running a 2 week on, 2 week off, 2 week on, then being finished(after final pct). I would run my 2 week straight cycle as I am now, straight into a 1 week pulse, to ease into pct, and allow me to start recovering while on the pulse. So it would be a total of a 3 week cycle, then pct. Just an idea. But another question I have is, does the 2 on/2 off have to be exactly like that or could I run 2 on/3 off for example? I don't see why it'd make a difference, unless you think you'd continue losing gains after the 2 weeks of pct.
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