HCG facts, myths, etc...
- 03-17-2004, 07:39 PM
HCG facts, myths, etc...
I have been trying to read up as much as I can lately about HCG. The 500iu every 5 days seems to be the best method.
But the more I read, the more I hear and the more I get confused. Some say to run it during PCT, but since HCG is slightly supressive by itself, why would you want to run it with your PCT? So, I scratched that one from the get-go. The next most common one I read about was to use it in the middle of the cycle, taper up, and then taper back down until the very first dose of your SERM dosing regimen. That being the first dose of your SERM for PCT be the next day after the last shot of HCG.
Here's an example, this was just posted today at Anabolic Freakz. I was gonna post a reply and ask him to explain it more but for some reason I was thread-locked?
I have posted this on two other boards but wasn't getting much feedback, so I wanna post it here because I know a couple of you have used HCG. After seeing DG saying he uses it and a few others, I decided to do my own research and figure some things out. You might not agree with me on this, but it's only my opnion of what I have found.
So, to start, I can tell you that using HCG takes a little bit of time to kick in and in some cases, can take months for it to kick in for people that don't respond well to it. So, the small doses of 500iu for just two days a week isn't going to cut it like some think. Also, HCG is best used after 8 weeks and after doing this research I have found how important it can be if added to a cycle and has been shown to be the only drug to be able to kick in natural test without the body being at a deficit which = a great thing.
I don't care how many times you use HCG in a cycle, if you don't use it close to the end of a cycle, it can mean that your shut down again and you just wasted your money....being that it only takes approximately 2-3 weeks for natural test to be shut down.
How does HCG work? Well, it's very simple...atleast, I'll make it simple for you. HCG takes the place of LH (luteinizing hormone) and this sends a signal to the testes to begin producing testosterone again. The only problem with this is, it causes a negative feedback and then you have to recover from the drop in LH. Using it for no more than 3 weeks and making sure you end it about 1-2 weeks before you end your usual PCT should solve this small problem.
Doses...In most of the studies I have found, doses from 3000iu to 5000iu for the first dose, then slowly decreasing and injecting about 3 times per week. I still think that this might be a little excessive for what we need, so I will use some of Big Cat's doses to make it easier, since he happens to be the closest I have ever seen anyone get to the study doses. He reommends this..."One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued..." Some argue that this frequncy of injections does not keep levels up enough and injections shouldn't be spread out so much. The drug company that makes Pregnyl recommends taking 1000iu-2000iu about 3 times a week. So, if one would opt for more frequent injections, go with 1000iu 3 times a week for week one, 500iu 3 times for week 2 and finally another 1500iu for week 3. At this point you hsould be within one week of your PCT.
Sound good? I will be doing this on my next cycle in a couple months.
SO, what I'm basically trying to say is that the 500iu twice/week is good to go, but if it takes a longer time thna people think to kick in wouldn't this be no good except for really long cycle?
Also, has anybody had first hand experience with doing a cycle w/o HCG and had noticed testicular hypertrophy, AND has run a similair cycle w/ HCG w/ the regimen being 500iu twice/week and noticed that it indeed helped comapred to the previous cycle? Man, talk about frazzled...any help here???
- 03-17-2004, 09:02 PM
- 03-17-2004, 10:04 PM
Okay yeah, I read that before, too bad I forgot all about it.
Since he is a licensed medical physician, he is the law of the land IMO. So that's what i'll continue to do. It just made me think when I hear people saying that HCG will take longer to effect oneself than most people think. Thanks for the refresher course link.
03-17-2004, 10:20 PM
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"How does HCG work? Well, it's very simple...atleast, I'll make it simple for you. HCG takes the place of LH (luteinizing hormone) and this sends a signal to the testes to begin producing testosterone again. The only problem with this is, it causes a negative feedback and then you have to recover from the drop in LH. Using it for no more than 3 weeks and making sure you end it about 1-2 weeks before you end your usual PCT should solve this small problem."
He's wrong about that. HCG has a short and long feedback loop and LH levels in normal men and woman were not effected. I really wished people would look at the data before writing all these recommendations.
Endogenous luteinizing hormone surges following administration of human chorionic gonadotropin: further evidence for lack of loop feedback in humans.
Nader S, Berkowitz AS.
Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences, University of Texas Medical School, Houston 77030.
The existence of inhibitory short- and ultrashort-loop feedback mechanisms for luteinizing hormone (LH), while documented in animals, has been questioned in humans. Since human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) binds to LH receptors but can be distinguished from LH in immunoassays, it is possible to identify LH surges in the face of exogenously administered hCG. The present study demonstrates LH surges at midcycle in normal volunteers and in women undergoing controlled ovarian hyperstimulation, given hCG. This provides further evidence for lack of loop feedback control of LH secretion in humans.
Inability to demonstrate an ultrashort loop feedback mechanism for luteinizing hormone in humans.
Kyle CV, Griffin J, Jarrett A, Odell WD.
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Utah School of Medicine, Salt Lake City 84132.
hCG has biological properties similar to those of LH, but can be measured separately from LH by current radioimmunometric assays. To investigate the possible existence of an autoregulatory mechanism for LH in humans, we compared the basal LH concentrations and the LH response to a GnRH stimulus with and without prior administration of hCG. On two separate occasions, at least 1 week apart, six normal (eugonadal) males and six normal postmenopausal females were given, in random order, either 10,000 IU hCG or saline followed by iv injection of a 200-micrograms bolus of GnRH. Blood samples were then taken 30, 60, 90, 120, 180, 240, and 300 min after GnRH. Serum concentrations of LH and hCG were measured at each time by two monoclonal antibody sandwich assays developed in our laboratory. After exogenous hCG, serum hCG concentrations rose rapidly to 200-500 IU/L (15,000-35,000 pg/mL) in both the men and women, remaining at this high level throughout the study. In the men, sex steroid concentrations did not change in response to the hCG during the 9 study hours. Compared to saline-treated controls, hCG had no significant effect in either men or postmenopausal women on the basal LH concentration or the response to a GnRH bolus, as determined by peak response and area under the LH/time curve between 0-300 min after GnRH. We conclude that an ultrashort loop feedback mechanism for LH on its own secretion does not exist in humans, as assessed by the present protocol.
Best bet is to use SWALES recommendation and follow that accordingly. There is no reason to use it post cycle if you use it during your cycle.
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03-17-2004, 10:38 PM
Damn Bobo, it's about time you replied.
Yes, it only makes more sense the way SWALE explains it. I'll be using that method...thanx for the studies..
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