Debate. (JudgmentDay)

n8te

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I'm inviting JudgementDay here to discuss why the use of anabolics is cheating. I'm tired of hearing this from multiple people (not on here), and I'm not gonna high jack Jbryand101's "steroids and wife" thread discussing this with him.

I'm not trying to call you out really but you did post this propaganda in the anabolics sections so you kind of asked for it.

So if you wanna chat about this then feel free. If not then stick to the MMA section.:twak:
 

neverstop

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steroids arn't cheating. If you want to look like Arnold did, can't do it with dat der celltech!!
 
JudgementDay

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OK w.e I don't even care if your lifting weights and on roids, but for MMA do you not think it's cheating?
 

neverstop

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all athletes push the edge, that's what it takes to be at the top in anything. It is "cheating" I guess but it doesn't bother me and it's extremely common in all the combat sports I've been involved in. I hear IGF is super common also.
 
JudgementDay

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This was a pointless thread lol, we don't agree with eachother and we may never, so no point to argue anymore.
 
n8te

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OK w.e I don't even care if your lifting weights and on roids, but for MMA do you not think it's cheating?
Don't they test for roids in UFC? And no it doesn't really bother me that much, I don't see it increasing someones quickness and reflexes at all. You can be as strong as you want and as muscular but if you can't fight b/c you don't have the skill then you're get your ass kicked.

Lets say you have two guys and they weight exactly the same, 190lbs. They are both 6 ft and have 12%bf. (I don't know the belt degrees) One has been fighting for only 1 year and is on steroids, he has been doing Brazilian Ju Jitsu for 2 years. The other guy has been into BJJ for 4 years and has wrestled in high school. The second guy is gonna kick his ass no matter what.

They are both the same age too...

It might help some but in a sport like MMA I would think training would make the biggest difference.
 
sethroberts

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Is it cheating to have better genetics? Is it cheating to have natural ability? Is it cheating to be 6'8"? Is it cheating to be born in the US versus some third world country? Life is inherently unfair -- I actually see drugs as an equalizer.
 

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They do test for roids in the UFC. Sean the muscle shark Shirk got banned for a little while because he tested positive. Look at GSP and tell me he isn't on gear, you can still see his gyno. I dont think that using is cheating since everyone has access to it if you look hard enough and want to take the plunge. Sometimes it is what it takes to be the best. Just my 2cc.
 
JudgementDay

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Well you recover faster on roids, which would mean you could train more, if the guy is going to be able to train 2 x more then the other guy, I think thats kinda cheap. Guy's like Sean Sherk at light weight isn't fair, he has a huge strength advantage. But Steroids will give you an athletic edge and that can change the outcome of a fight, which to me isn't fair. But w.e I don't really care, my opinion is people that take roids must have confidence issues deep inside.
 
sethroberts

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Well you recover faster on roids, which would mean you could train more, if the guy is going to be able to train 2 x more then the other guy, I think thats kinda cheap. Guy's like Sean Sherk at light weight isn't fair, he has a huge strength advantage. But Steroids will give you an athletic edge and that can change the outcome of a fight, which to me isn't fair. But w.e I don't really care, my opinion is people that take roids must have confidence issues deep inside.
You are assuming that not everyone does steroids. If everyone is using them then it is a level playing field. Better training, better knowhow, better work ethic, better motivation, better food -- these are all potential sources of "unfairness" too.
 
n8te

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Well you recover faster on roids, which would mean you could train more, if the guy is going to be able to train 2 x more then the other guy, I think thats kinda cheap. Guy's like Sean Sherk at light weight isn't fair, he has a huge strength advantage. But Steroids will give you an athletic edge and that can change the outcome of a fight, which to me isn't fair. But w.e I don't really care, my opinion is people that take roids must have confidence issues deep inside.
Confidence issues? you are a fighter, correct? Do you not think you're worth a crap unless you can physically impose your will on someone? You work out right? Well do you have so little confidence that you feel you're worthless unless you work out and beat the crap out of people? I think you do it b/c you enjoy it, at least I would think that. I think it has nothing to do w/ confidence issues.
 

SeanyK

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as was previously stated in jbry's thread


TOOOOOOOL!



and oh yea... not cheating, of course
 
Jasen

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every top pro athlete model and top actor uses some form of "supplement" theres too much competition these days not too even ur american hero swimmer micheal philips is on HGH. thats all i can say dont doubts it

bruce lee was on roids, anderson silva is on them. and the list goes on
tyson ran halostein etc etc
 
Jasen

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AAs is more of a ladder to the pro lvl. without them u cannot be a top pro athlete....
 
EasyEJL

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Is a guy who has a natural test level of 1200 and low SHBG cheating compared to a guy who has a natural test level of 600 and high SHBG?
 
Jasen

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^^^ just leveling the playing field ;)
 
Jasen

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test the nector of gods
 

tweek

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In my opinion it is cheating if the rules of that particular sport have banned them. It becomes a gray area with similar substances that are not YET banned but will be. I say gray area. Just because some chemist dropped a new molecule onto an already banned substance doesn't change what it really is. In that aspect it gets into technicalities. Let's be honest, a slightly different superdrol is still superdrol. If a participant wants to use drugs they should be honest and join a league that doesn't require testing. There is obviously nothing wrong with taking PEDs, unless you attempt to hide the use in order to compete when you have to actually hide your use. To put it simply, if you cant publically admit what you take because you fear the repercussions in your sport, you shouldn't be taking it. No one ever said it would be fair.

Genetic ability is a major factor of course, some people cant compete with or without drugs. But if they lost that lottery they shouldn't break the rules in an effort to "level the playing field" they should use whatever means necessary and compete in the arena where others are allowed to do the same. Some people have to train their asses off, some can get away with less. That is life.

Are designer steroids cheating? no. Are designer steroids cheating when the rules of that sport are against them? yes
 
Jasen

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^interesting.

there is a point. but alot of pro athletes use AAS so in a way there needs to be leveling. all great atlhese use AAS so why r they still considered heros like bonds and philips? no body boos them no body boos Football players..... thought its clear that half of them are on something
 
Jasen

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ya that was it! lol
it always makes me laugh
 
Jasen

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wat contributes to anadrols size besides water/glycogen and RBC? i know dbol has higher protein synth
 

tweek

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^interesting.

there is a point. but alot of pro athletes use AAS so in a way there needs to be leveling. all great atlhese use AAS so why r they still considered heros like bonds and philips? no body boos them no body boos Football players..... thought its clear that half of them are on something
I definitely agree. But I think that is where the asset of integrity comes into. Some sports have rules and turn a blind eye because they haven't had a media scandal. I don't believe the "everyone is doing it" excuse if the rules say otherwise.

I am sure some people in every sport outright use test and flat out banned substances. But they know they are cheating. And players that do play it straight know other people are cheating. The former lack integrity, the latter have true character.

And as I said, if something is banned, it's cheating. The rules can be completely arbitrary honestly, it is a private endeavor. 50 million dollar contracts do not change the inherent nature of integrity and what it means to be honest.

If someone doesn't want to worry about banned substances, there are plenty of leagues that are untested. I want the tested leagues to be honest. I want their players to show integrity by actually following the rules instead of simply worrying about the cash grab.

AAS doesn't make you less of a person, or less honest. Using AAS and blatantly lying about it does.

EDIT: No one forced the players into this contract. They chose to sign the clause that said they wouldnt partake in certain activities.
 
EasyEJL

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wat contributes to anadrols size besides water/glycogen and RBC? i know dbol has higher protein synth
its not just about size but how it feels, and strength gains.
 
Jasen

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I definitely agree. But I think that is where the asset of integrity comes into. Some sports have rules and turn a blind eye because they haven't had a media scandal. I don't believe the "everyone is doing it" excuse if the rules say otherwise.

I am sure some people in every sport outright use test and flat out banned substances. But they know they are cheating. And players that do play it straight know other people are cheating. The former lack integrity, the latter have true character.

And as I said, if something is banned, it's cheating. The rules can be completely arbitrary honestly, it is a private endeavor. 50 million dollar contracts do not change the inherent nature of integrity and what it means to be honest.

If someone doesn't want to worry about banned substances, there are plenty of leagues that are untested. I want the tested leagues to be honest. I want their players to show integrity by actually following the rules instead of simply worrying about the cash grab.

AAS doesn't make you less of a person, or less honest. Using AAS and blatantly lying about it does.

EDIT: No one forced the players into this contract. They chose to sign the clause that said they wouldnt partake in certain activities.

same thing i tell to my buddies; if u lie aout AAS use, u just look like a fool everone knows ur lieing plus u are proving everyone right that wehat u do u know is illegal and ur ashamed. which is why i am always honest
 
jbryand101b

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im sorry, this is my belief on using performance enhancing substances. (w/e they may be)

cheating is no longer a unfair issue once you get past a certain level. I would guess after high school, when playing in a particular sport actually starts to matter.
then it becomes an issue as to whether you have the ballz to do what it takes to win. if you dont think there are guys/girls using steroids in any sport, you are extremely nieve.
yes, everyone isn't doing it. but there is a point when it's gonna be you or him, and your living/future/carreer is based off whether you win, or loose.

me, if it came down to me having to work at burger king because I lost too many w/e's and got cut, contract ended w/e.

and because i didn't fininsh college in order to go off and play,

im gonna ask myself.... while im flipping burgers....will I be thinking..... atleast i didn't cheat.

hell no. i like alot of others (mr bonds) will use those boosters.

it's a dog eat dog world. if you dont cheat to win, someone else will be there, hungry as ever, willing to do w/e it takes to knock your as* off the top to get there.

my name may not go in the record books, but i'll have made enough money to live a comfy life and support my family.
*edit just read through this, damn it's hard to follow. but you get what i mean.
 
jakellpet

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they should have an Olympics where everyone is geared . . . . wait, they already do ;)
 
Jasen

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its true the wolf climbin the mountin will do anything to get to the top. very true.
 
De Santo

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To say roids are cheating is like saying a playboy bunny cheated because she had a boob job!
 
EasyEJL

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Was tiger woods lasik surgery where his eyes got corrected to 20/10 cheating?
 

SeanyK

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Was tiger woods lasik surgery where his eyes got corrected to 20/10 cheating?
great remark easy e

i was waiting for someone to bring this up.



guys lets spare us the argument, short and sweet...
in the realms of professional contracted sporting "cheating" is found in a vast majority of cases and should be regarded as part of that arena.

PEDs were never a problem until the MEDIA, JOE binBIDEN, HARRY WAXMAN and the rest of these moronic sh*t heads who couldnt tell you the relationship between cholesterol and testosterone if they were given a text book and a week to study it. it was NEVER a problem. THEY made it a problem. not the players, and not us. THEY DID.
 
n8te

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great remark easy e

i was waiting for someone to bring this up.


guys lets spare us the argument, short and sweet...
in the realms of professional contracted sporting "cheating" is found in a vast majority of cases and should be regarded as part of that arena.

PEDs were never a problem until the MEDIA, JOE binBIDEN, HARRY WAXMAN and the rest of these moronic sh*t heads who couldnt tell you the relationship between cholesterol and testosterone if they were given a text book and a week to study it. it was NEVER a problem. THEY made it a problem. not the players, and not us. THEY DID.


Henry Waxman is an idiot.
 
juice3320

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Don't they test for roids in UFC? And no it doesn't really bother me that much, I don't see it increasing someones quickness and reflexes at all. You can be as strong as you want and as muscular but if you can't fight b/c you don't have the skill then you're get your ass kicked.

Lets say you have two guys and they weight exactly the same, 190lbs. They are both 6 ft and have 12%bf. (I don't know the belt degrees) One has been fighting for only 1 year and is on steroids, he has been doing Brazilian Ju Jitsu for 2 years. The other guy has been into BJJ for 4 years and has wrestled in high school. The second guy is gonna kick his ass no matter what.

They are both the same age too...

It might help some but in a sport like MMA I would think training would make the biggest difference.
x2 on this. In all actuality if the use of AAS were to occur in this sport it would more than likely hurt performance due to a slight decrease in ROM. However, it could also be a help depending on if used properly or not. All in all, I'm with n8te on this one. I have seen plenty of big 'ole steroid freaks get their a**es kicked by some little guy who could fight. I don't see AAS being of any help here. The only benefit you might get is the strengthening of ligaments from some variations of AAS and that could help in a sport like this. However, with all that being said, it is almost impossible to compete in high level sports (including competitive bodybuilding which is more of a lifestyle) without the use of AAS due to how common they have become among the athletic community. Heck I can name at least 10 guys at my gym that are just recreational lifters that use them (properly).
 
juice3320

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great remark easy e

i was waiting for someone to bring this up.



guys lets spare us the argument, short and sweet...
in the realms of professional contracted sporting "cheating" is found in a vast majority of cases and should be regarded as part of that arena.

PEDs were never a problem until the MEDIA, JOE binBIDEN, HARRY WAXMAN and the rest of these moronic sh*t heads who couldnt tell you the relationship between cholesterol and testosterone if they were given a text book and a week to study it. it was NEVER a problem. THEY made it a problem. not the players, and not us. THEY DID.
:thumbsup:
 
MuscleMac

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Bigger, Stronger, Faster is a great movie for this topic, it seems pretty biased in favor of steroids, but it's interesting nonetheless. I'm sure some of you have seen the movie.
 
jbryand101b

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Bigger, Stronger, Faster is a great movie for this topic, it seems pretty biased in favor of steroids, but it's interesting nonetheless. I'm sure some of you have seen the movie.
i cant tell, it convinced my wife to shut down all steroid use for me. i wish i had never heard of that movie.
 
waynaferd

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Is it cheating to have better genetics? Is it cheating to have natural ability? Is it cheating to be 6'8"? Is it cheating to be born in the US versus some third world country? Life is inherently unfair -- I actually see drugs as an equalizer.
Best post ever!!
 

dpfisher

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i cant tell, it convinced my wife to shut down all steroid use for me. i wish i had never heard of that movie.
Oh she saw the one guy let his ignorant wife freak out and tell him what to do and got ideas?

Oh wait nm I was thinking of that "30 days" episode.
 
JudgementDay

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I thought about it guys and I apologize for the things I have said. I do not agree with the use of steroids, but I have no right bashing people that use it. I have not used them, I'm not an expert on it, so who am I to say negative things about people who use them. But I did say some ignorant things, so for that I apologize to all of you that I have offended.
 
jbryand101b

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Oh she saw the one guy let his ignorant wife freak out and tell him what to do and got ideas?

Oh wait nm I was thinking of that "30 days" episode.
huh? hell yea i let my wife tell me what to do.
if it wasn't for her being that way, i'd be smokin weed, and workin at mcdonalds, and not working out. and probably living in my friends winibego. her toughness got my life back on track where it needed to be.
 

dpfisher

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huh? hell yea i let my wife tell me what to do.
if it wasn't for her being that way, i'd be smokin weed, and workin at mcdonalds, and not working out. and probably living in my friends winibego. her toughness got my life back on track where it needed to be.
No no no I wasn't ripping on you I honestly was thinking of another show where the guy's wife was incredibly bitchy and the show made steroids look really bad. I know compromise is part of a successful relationship.
 
jbryand101b

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oh, it's all good. i've had a good year with d.s's. im going to go all natty for as long as I can. it's gonna be hard, but hopefully after a few years, she'll be more willing to cave.
 
n8te

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oh, it's all good. i've had a good year with d.s's. im going to go all natty for as long as I can. it's gonna be hard, but hopefully after a few years, she'll be more willing to cave.

So you decided against it. cool whatever keeps you AND the wife happy man. I wasn't quite sure what you decided b/c your thread disappeared.
 

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