Can we please stop with the borlore - Prolactin DOES NOT INCREASE GYNO
- 10-30-2009, 07:54 PM
- 10-30-2009, 08:46 PM
I had some "progesterone gyno" (i.e. it involved darkening and widening of areolas) from rebound, stress-induced or hell-knows-what progesterone. Blood tests showed normal E2 and crazy progesterone numbers. ATD had no effect. Proviron slowly brought it under control.
- 10-30-2009, 11:09 PM
They will absolutely lessen the effect of progesterone. They are PARTIAL AGONISTS. Testosterone is NOT a partial agonist, it is a full agonist
"Partial agonists (such as buspirone, aripiprazole, buprenorphine, or norclozapine) bind and activate a given receptor, but have only partial efficacy at the receptor relative to a full agonist. They may also be considered ligands which display both agonistic and antagonistic effects - when both a full agonist and partial agonist are present, the partial agonist actually acts as a competitive antagonist, competing with the full agonist for receptor occupancy and producing a net decrease in the receptor activation observed with the full agonist alone. Clinically partial agonists can activate receptors to give a desired submaximal response when inadequate amounts of the endogenous ligand are present, or they can reduce the overstimulation of receptors when excess amounts of the endogenous ligand are present."
Your test/deca/tren analogy makes absolutely no sense considering that both Deca and Tren are higher affinity steroids. So, test is a 100, deca 120 and tren a 400 any of these will work as an agonist. Deca has a lower activity level than progesterone so, with it binding it displaces progesterone therefore it will be a partial agonist. You'd have to take far higher doses to get the same activity level. Since testosterone is at 100% activity, it's not really a comparison with something with 30% activity. Think about it.
By the way, I didn't paraphrase, I took the QUOTE right from his presentation. I stand by my point that reducing hormone levels in healthy men below normal levels isn't a good idea. That was my point...
There is a ton that we don't know. However, I doubt messing with every hormone in your body at once is a good idea. The point is that for normal people to try and drop their prolactin levels is potentially harmful. If you have higher than normal, by all means...however, I keep reading these threads where guys are worried about reducing prolactin when there is no indication that they have high levels. By the way, my wife has hyper prolactemia and at the risk of TMI, she has no lactation, but somehow 100's of BRO's have this issue...
Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1995 Sep;58(3):354-9.
Restoration of normal sperm characteristics in hypoprolactinemic infertile men treated with metoclopramide and exogenous human prolactin.
Ufearo CS, Orisakwe OE.
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, Nnamdi Azikiwe University, Nigeria.
We investigated the effects of induced increase in prolactin levels on spermatogenesis in 20 infertile men with hypoprolactinemia using exogenous human prolactin (hPRL) and metoclopramide. The subjects were selected from a population of 175 infertile men in whom the prevalence of hypoprolactinemia was 33.14%. Mean basal plasma prolactin was 2.79 +/- 0.62 ng.ml-1 in the infertile men and 9.57 +/- 2.14 ng.ml-1 in the normal control subjects. At the sixteenth week, mean plasma prolactin was 9.41 +/- 1.3 ng.ml-1 in subjects treated with exogenous hPRL and 5.2 +/- 0.7 ng.ml-1 in subjects treated with metoclopramide. Mean basal sperm concentration was approximately 8.8 million per milliliter in the infertile men and 41.5 million per milliliter in the normal control subjects. Mean sperm concentration was approximately 37 million per milliliter in subjects treated with exogenous hPRL, whereas the peak mean value was 23 million per milliliter in subjects treated with metoclopramide for 16 weeks. At basal conditions, the mean percentages of abnormal sperm were 66.75% +/- 14.93% and 21.36% +/- 4.78% in infertile and normal subjects, respectively. In subjects treated with exogenous hPRL and metoclopramide, the mean percentage of abnormal sperm were 24.7% and 31%, respectively, at week 16. Mean plasma prolactin, mean sperm concentration and the mean percentage of abnormal sperm were 3.3 +/- 1.4 ng.ml-1, 7 million per milliliter, and 60.5, respectively, in the infertile subjects after drug withdrawal at week 14. In normal control subjects, there was no significant difference (p = 0.01) in the plecebo effect. We therefore conclude that the low prolactin levels in this group of infertile men may be one of the primary causes of their infertility.
J Androl. 1985 Jan-Feb;6(1):10-4.
Induced hypoprolactinemia and testicular steroidogenesis in man.
Suescun MO, Scorticati C, Chiauzzi VA, Chemes HE, Rivarola MA, Calandra RS.
The effects of short-term hypoprolactinemia on the pituitary-gonadal axis were evaluated in a group of patients with untreated prostatic carcinoma. Each patient was studied prior to and during 7-day oral administrations of bromocriptine (2.5 mg q.i.d.). Serum LH, prolactin (PRL), androst-4-ene-3,17 dione (androstenedione), testosterone, and 5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha, 17 beta-diol (5 alpha-Diol) levels, as well as intra-testicular testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), 5 alpha-Diol and zinc (Zn) concentrations, were determined. Daily administration of bromocriptine caused a marked suppression of serum PRL (mean +/- SEM, 23.8 +/- 2.5 vs. 6.4 +/- 1.0 ng/ml) without concomitant changes in serum LH levels (mean +/- SEM, 8.3 +/- 1.6 vs. 8.9 +/- 2.1 ng/ml). Hypoprolactinemia induced a significant decrease (P less than 0.05) in the mean peripheral testosterone levels; but 5 alpha-Diol and androstenedione remained unchanged. However, in testicular tissues, bromocriptine treatment resulted in significant increases in mean concentrations of total androgens (P less than 0.001), testosterone (P less than 0.001) and DHT (P less than 0.02). Testicular levels of 5 alpha-Diol were not significantly altered. There was no change in Zn levels in basal conditions and during bromocriptine administration. These results indicate that short-term suppression of serum PRL levels in man affects basal testicular function without altering serum LH. However, a direct action of bromocriptine on the human gonad cannot be excluded.
Andrologia. 1985 Mar-Apr;17(2):172-7.
Bromocriptine, a dopamine agonist, directly inhibits testosterone production by rat Leydig cells.
Chambon M, Grizard G, Boucher D.
We investigated the direct effects of bromocriptine (BR) on both basal and hCG-stimulated testosterone production by rat collagenase-dispersed Leydig cells. In a final volume of 2.2 ml, 2.10(6) Leydig cells were incubated at 33 degrees C for 3 h either alone or with various amounts of hCG (1. 10. 10(2). 10(3). 10(4) mUI/vial) and BR (1.5 10(-9), 1.5 10(-7), 1.5 10(-5) M); BR was dissolved in 20 microliters of ethanol. BR (1.5 10(-5) M) decreased significantly both basal and hCG-stimulated testosterone production whereas at lower doses, BR had no effect. These results suggest that the dopamine itself may regulate rat Leydig cell function and that there is room for criticism of BR-induced hypoprolactinemia as an experimental model to study the effect of prolactin on the androgenic function.
Fertil Steril. 1991 Feb;55(2):355-7.
Effects of chronic bromocriptine-induced hypoprolactinemia on plasma testosterone responses to human chorionic gonadotropin stimulation in normal men.
Oseko F, Nakano A, Morikawa K, Endo J, Taniguchi A, Usui T.
Department of Medicine, Shimane Medical University, Japan.
To study the role played by normal levels of plasma prolactin (PRL) in the secretion of testosterone (T) in the testes, we induced hypoprolactinemia with a daily dose of 5 mg bromocriptine administered orally in five normal men 20 to 35 years of age for 8 weeks. The basal PRL, T, luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and maximum responses of plasma T to human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) stimulation were measured every 2 weeks. Basal levels of plasma T were reduced in the 1st 2-week-long period of hypoprolactinemia. In the 4-week-long period of hypoprolactinemia, the maximal response of plasma T to hCG stimulation was significantly reduced. The findings suggest that normal levels of plasma PRL may play an important role in the secretion of T in the human testes in vivo.
10-30-2009, 11:17 PM
10-31-2009, 11:06 AM
Throw in some of the crazy stacks that I (and I am sure all of you) have seen nowadays, and the resulting hormonal alterations/permutations can be staggering, and there is really no way to accurately account for all of the different variables. In a lot of cases, this forces us to rely, at least somewhat, on anecdotal evidence. Personally, I don't see an IRB ever approving a study where nandrolone is stacked with methandienone, yet we know "it works", at least for physique-enhancement purposes.....
Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals
10-31-2009, 12:12 PM
10-31-2009, 01:40 PM
I am prone to gyno, and I seem to get two TYPES of gyno
1) estrogen gyno - while on testosterone I get estrogen induced gyno; this is a slow process where both my nips will get sensitive and I can feel the lump of gyno tissue under them (usually "dormant") activating, becoming puffier, and painful when pressure is applied
Taking an AI will reduce the estrogen gyno immediately, a small amount of letro is sufficient to reduce the sensitivity and puffiness to nothing
2) "Progestin gyno" - I have gotten this from two PH's Max LMG and the 19-nor "tren." In the first case i was running it standalone, in the second case it was stacked with testosterone.
In both cases, gyno appeared in the first week of use of that steroid, AND WAS LOCALIZED TO ONE NIPPLE. In the first case it targetted my left nipple, and in the second case my right nipple was targetted. The other nip would be very mildly sensitive, but the targetted nip would be extremely sore, VERY puffy, with a noticable lump underneath that was... Well, trying to grow i suppose.
Both these compounds are known as "progestins" and kill sex drive so prolactin is almost assuredly being elevated.
In both these cases, taking letrozole did not stop the gyno, even in high doses (up to 2.5mg/day) the letrozole would only reduce sensitivity and swelling marginally, however the gyno was still visually apparent.
So i think there is clearly some interaction going on with steroids that are known to increase prolactin.
Mostly answered PM's
Don't post on my profile, I don't read that stuff, PM me instead
<------ Hard to believe, but I wasn't on any anabolics in the avatar shot
11-01-2009, 09:29 AM
11-01-2009, 10:57 AM
11-01-2009, 12:00 PM
11-02-2009, 03:31 AM
This recent study (from March of this year) tested the transactivational activity of nandrolone in the human progesterone receptor. See figure 2, where it clearly shows that 19-norTestosterone produced a 100% (full agonist) response, right on par with progesterone itself, at a concentration of 10-6 M.
In corroboration with that, this study from 2006 examined the "Stimulation of progestational transcriptional activity" in a different cell line. It found that 19-nortestosterone (19-NT) "increased transcriptional activity to the same extent as the progestin standard, R5020, at 10–8 M." R5020 is an extremely potent full agonist. The conclusion states that "as we have shown here, 19-norandrogens exhibit considerable progestational activity both in vitro and in vivo."
Finally, in this study from 2004, they performed a human progesterone receptor bioassy. Tren was compared to a progesterone standard. As you can see in figure 2, tren produced a 100% (full agonist) response.
You don't get a full response from partial agonists, do you?
11-02-2009, 03:50 AM
Once the receptor is saturated, what happens (activity) is something else entirely. You could have a maximal response (full agonist), no response (full antagonist), or somewhere in between (mixed response). Going off your logic (where they're the same thing), receptor antagonists must have an RBA of 0%, since they have 0 activity. But if they had an RBA of 0, that would mean they have 0 affinity for the receptor, so they wouldn't even be ligands and wouldn't even bind to the receptor where they could do any blocking. Think about it.
You need to learn some of the basics before getting into arguments like this.
11-02-2009, 04:01 AM
What you said: "prolactin has no effect on gynocomastia".
Those are not the same thing, are they? So you didn't quote him. You took what he said and put it into your own words. That's called a paraphrase. You don't put quote marks around a paraphrase and attribute it to someone else, even when it's materially equivalent. That's just lazy and rude.
11-02-2009, 04:08 AM
11-02-2009, 05:19 AM
11-02-2009, 06:10 AM
11-02-2009, 08:07 AM
11-02-2009, 08:42 AM
I posted a fact that used effectively the same language. How was that turned against me? This is why I find these discussions to be pointless and I rarely invest in them (which is why you won't see me spending nearly the time I should). I think we can say with safety that "No effect" and "No role" are pretty much the same thing. So, please explain how was that "turned against me"...waiting with the utmost patience.
Also, I know Tren is a full agonist and I explained how Tren might be causing issues above and you don't typically see similarities in Tren and Deca. The graph for nandrolone shows a transactivation response for nortest similar to progesterone buy only at 10-6 molar which is likely not going to be achieved in the body. So, even though the data does not show deca to technically be a partial agonist, at relavent concentrations it will act like one even from your graph. Look at the response, showing it doesn't achieve full activity until high concentrations. Additionally from your graph sited in your second paper shows the RBA to be between 8% and 9% for Deca unless I am missing something.
Finally the bro-logic to blame the progestational activity of Deca for "Deca **** and gyno" is in my opinion an error this then gets extrapolated to Tren and other androgens.
Also, since you have time to look through the literature Big C. Find me a reference showing Anadrol to have progestational activity. I've never looked but I seriously doubt it is in there. Still, I'd love to see it since this is the common "bro-logic".
So whether the issue is from poor transcription or low binding affinity seems like the effect would be the same wouldn't it? The point of the thread again is to challenge popular BROLOGIC which has not proven itself to be at all conclusive. No matter that thousands of guys are running around extolling the problems with M1T's progestational activity when there is absolutely nothing structurally that would lead us to believe that it is progestational and doubtfully anything in the literature showing that...
You look through the literature and cherry pick to support your opinion yet don't provide any counter to proof. Just like in the AR receptor discussion you completely avoid obvious information and refuse to comment on it. This is why it is pointless you refuse to learn anything. The saddest part is that the answer from Pat Arnold is truthful most cases "we don't know" so to run around saying "prolactin causes gyno" as gospel or "progestins cause gyno" as gospel is stupid. I put up these strong statements not because I know everything, just to balance out the absolute stupid belief that someone educated or uneducated on these boards have a freaking clue what is going on and "knows everything".
No offense Unreal Machine, but honestly do you really have any idea what caused your symptoms? You just work on the assumptions given to you when in fact you really might not have a clue why you have gyno? Also this statement
"Both these compounds are known as "progestins" and kill sex drive so prolactin is almost assuredly being elevated.
In both these cases, taking letrozole did not stop the gyno, even in high doses (up to 2.5mg/day) the letrozole would only reduce sensitivity and swelling marginally, however the gyno was still visually apparent.
So i think there is clearly some interaction going on with steroids that are known to increase prolactin."
You move from steroids having progestational activity to steroids "KNOWN to increase prolactin". Those kind of statements are what I get upset about. It's rampant. Younger kids read that and then repeat it, giving us the popular "brologic" of today. I'd love to be wrong, but show me papers or anything that show Max LMG and Dienedione to increase prolactin (or even similar androgens, that is fine) thus proving that your gyno is prolactin induced.
11-02-2009, 10:04 AM
Explain male lactation on tren then (or even just in general). If prolactin has no effect how can men get gyno while lactating?
11-02-2009, 10:18 AM
The Historic PES Legend
11-02-2009, 10:19 AM
11-02-2009, 11:26 AM
11-02-2009, 11:38 AM
11-02-2009, 11:40 AM
J Sex Med. 2009 May;6(5):1457-66. Epub 2009 Feb 10.
Hypoprolactinemia: a new clinical syndrome in patients with sexual dysfunction.
Corona G, Mannucci E, Jannini EA, Lotti F, Ricca V, Monami M, Boddi V, Bandini E, Balercia G, Forti G, Maggi M.
Andrology Unit, Department of Clinical Physiopathology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy.
INTRODUCTION: The physiological role of prolactin (PRL) in male sexual behavior is poorly understood. Conversely, the association between PRL pathological elevation in both reproductive and sexual behavior is well defined. AIM: The aim of the present study is to assess the correlates of normal PRL (PRL < 735 mU/L or 35 ng/mL), in male subjects consulting for sexual dysfunction. METHODS: A consecutive series of 2,531 (mean age 52.0 +/- 12.9 years) subjects was investigated. Patients were interviewed using the structured interview on erectile dysfunction (SIEDY), a 13-item tool for the assessment of erectile dysfunction (ED)-related morbidities. Middlesex Hospital Questionnaire was used for the evaluation of psychological symptoms. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Several hormonal (testosterone, thyroid stimulation hormone, and PRL) and biochemical parameters (glycemia and lipid profile) were studied, along with penile Doppler ultrasound (PDU) and SIEDY items. RESULTS: After adjustment for confounders anxiety symptoms decreased across PRL quartiles (I: <113 mU/L or 5 ng/mL; II: 113-156 mU/L or 5.1-7 ng/mL; III: 157-229 mU/L or 7.1-11 ng/mL; IV: 229-734 mU/L or 11.1-34.9 ng/mL). Patients in the lowest PRL quartile showed a higher risk of metabolic syndrome (MetS; odds ratio [OR] = 1.74 [1.01-2.99], P < 0.05), arteriogenic ED (peak systolic velocity at PDU < 35 cm/sec; OR = 1.43 [1.01-2.03], P < 0.05), and premature ejaculation (PE; OR = 1.38 [1.02-1.85]; P < 0.05). Conversely, comparing subjects with PRL-secreting pituitary adenomas (N = 13) with matched controls, no significant difference was observed, except for a higher prevalence of hypoactive sexual desire in hyperprolactinemia. CONCLUSIONS: Our findings demonstrate that, in subjects consulting for sexual dysfunction, PRL in the lowest quartile levels are associated with MetS and arteriogenic ED, as well as with PE and anxiety symptoms. Further studies are advisable in order to confirm our preliminary results in different populations.
11-02-2009, 11:41 AM
11-02-2009, 11:43 AM
11-02-2009, 11:47 AM
You clearly can't read...and obviously neither can Concilliator or whatever his name is...
He purposefully misuses the literature as usual. I've refuted everything he's said and yet crickets chirp...
The paper sited shows an affinity for the PR of 8-9% and we are splitting hairs on symantics, the net effect is the same. Additionally, the graph shows specifically that at lower concentrations the net effect of Deca is to NOT be as potent a progestin.
So, in a nutshell, Deca with a 8-9% affinity and a lower activity level up until high concentrations are reached is a full agonist (your two papers by the way) in your eyes. The net effect is going to be a partial agonist like I was saying in the first place.
Yes, this is BRINGING NOTHING. I always wonder why the world exists in the way it does, all I need to do is get back on these threads... Reading the papers, responding, showing how the data is being misinterpreted, yes, this is nothing...
11-02-2009, 11:52 AM
I get on showing a presentation and reference from a Doctor that says Prolactin has NO ROLE in gyno. So, it's not MY theory, it's the theory of a Doctor. Where did the other "theory" come from? A bunch of dudes that think progestins and prolactins are interchangable because they both start with P. When you take the counter point to the good Dr. you then take the burden of proving your argument.
Progesterone is the second or third (I believe the second) highest hormone in the MALE body after testosterone, so it seems pretty likely that it isn't the "progestational" effects.
11-02-2009, 11:56 AM
11-02-2009, 12:02 PM
You want the explanation?
Fine, as I've said numerous times. "heresay" isn't proof. Two things could be going on. All nipple tissue will produce fluid if squeezed, there are sweat and oil ducts that have fluid. Try it now, go squeeze your nipples for 2-3 minutes and see the fluid come out. How did I find this out, I got a panic stricken call from my sales rep saying that M1P caused a guy to leak. He was also on M1P and after squeezing his nips for a minute or two some fluid came out. So, then I for science sake squeezed mine (I was not taking M1P) and guess what? Yep, fluid.
Breast tissue in general is very sensitive. If you keep touching it and playing with it, they tend to get very irritated and sore. So, of course human nature is to keep playing with it to "check". This accounts for 99% of the pain, swelling that people feel.
Finally, I reread the posts and Concilliator said that Tren and Deca are not as strong progestins as Progesterone, then sites a study showing Tren to be as potent. This will be lost on the masses.
The point is to challenge the Dr. and the medical text book...great argument. I am officially done with this thread, it's clearly pointless.
11-02-2009, 12:06 PM
11-02-2009, 12:30 PM
I know from personal experience that prolactin causes gyno in me, I don't want to go into full detail but some Rec drugs lower dopamine and cause an increase in prolactin and they definitely cause gyno.
11-02-2009, 12:58 PM
Not sure about recreation drugs, so again anything is possible when you mess with your endocrine system and mix compounds. Also, it's not overactive sweat glands, it's normal oil ans sweat.
DAdams, since I might have been kind of a ****, let me send you some free products. I try to make amends when I am overly harsh. PM me your address and what you want to try...
11-02-2009, 01:10 PM
One thing I will say first. You can find one or two studies to backup basically anything you want to say. But if you have any experience in and have been around people who have you will know a few things to be true.
There are some who are sensitive to progesterone's and some who aren't. I myself, and many others that I know - and I would go as far as to say the majority get gyno while on things like Tren and Deca. That isn't ridiculous to say or some groundbreaking news - it's well known, and has been among people who don't sit behind a keyboard arguing on forums. Rather, the ones who are actually using these compounds and lifting weights to boot. I can also say that running dostinex while on either of these completely prevents it, and again that's not just me - a very widely known fact.
One thing I do know is that heavy doses of B6, Dostinex(Caber), p-5-p, dopamine (I think?), and a couple others all lower prolactin and all have been shown to help with things like Tren/Deca/etc...
So bring all your studies, everything else you need to make you feel better and I will find a couple bunk ones myself to "prove" the antithesis. Just goes to show you all these "scientists and doctors" really for the most part don't know wtf they are doing and have never actually got out there and tried anything for themselves. Its like a politician telling you what the war is like over in Afghanistan/Iraq, then the ACTUAL soldiers come back and are like wtf?...no - same concept.
11-02-2009, 01:17 PM
You bug-eyed, side-steppin' sand crab, you...
Let's have a go at it, I want some of those free samples, too.
11-02-2009, 01:21 PM
11-02-2009, 02:41 PM
Just because something is at a concentration that does not produce full activity does not make it a partial agonist. Those are two different things. Test is a full agonist of the AR. If you're taking 200mg/wk and getting less than full activity, it doesn't change the fact that test is still a full agonist, does it? Rather, something is a full agonist if it is capable of producing maximal activity when the receptor is saturated with the ligand, at whatever concentration that might be. All the data I provided shows that deca is a full agonist. Accordingly, it will NOT be blocking or reducing the effect of endogenous progesterone. It will only be adding to the overall progestational activity, which directly contradicts your unsupported argument earlier in this thread. The data shows that deca and tran have the same activity as progesterone, producing a 100% response. It just takes a higher concentration to saturate the receptor, since as ligands they have lower affinity.
11-02-2009, 03:38 PM
This study found that even a single, 100mg shot of deca produced plasma levels that high (>10 nM).
What we know is that there's definitely progestational activity from deca. The question is how much. We can only guess what happens in vivo, in cells that matter in human males.
11-02-2009, 03:39 PM
I actively posted and debated in that thread for pages and pages. Of course, you didn't like that thread because it exposed your marketing claims for what they clearly were, bull****.
11-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Not to mention that there are other references for nandrolone, showing that it may have a 20-30% RBA compared to progesterone. At 10%, it means that if you have 10x more nandrolone in your body than natural progesterone (which would be easy with the doses guys are injecting), you would double the progestogenic action in the body. If nandrolone has 30% the affinity of progesterone, that same dose would quadruple the progestogenic effects in the body. That could easily have physiological significance.
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