Botched Gyno Surgery- please read

[nick603]

some background-

my name is nick, and while competitively olympic lifting i did an irresponsible (and under educated) cycle of:

17a-methyl-etioallocholan-2-ene-17b-ol
-and-
17a-methyl-4-chloro-androsta-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol

i failed to do a proper PCT, and within a couple months of the cycle ending, i started getting severe nipple pain- within 6 months the pain had turned into large fibrous masses under both nipples and adipose proliferation in the chest.

Fast forwarding a little bit, I am a full time engineering student and active duty Army. One benefit of this is that my surgeries are paid for, including mammoplasty reduction (the kind of surgery that gets rid of gyno). The doctor performing my surgery was an experienced plastic surgeon who told me that the gameplan was to make 3 incisions on each side of my chest- (two for lyposuction, one right under the nipple to remove the main mass of tissue). I went through surgery with no complications, but within a week when the pain started to subside, I could still feel a mass under my chest. When the dressings finally came off, i found that the only thing that the doctor had done was lyposuction- no areolar incision to remove the bulk of the tissue.

It has now been 6 weeks since my surgery, and the fat seems to be coming back daily. The area seems to be getting more tender and larger all the time. The doctor who did my surgery is a Colonel (O-6) which WAY outranks me, so i can't really raise a complaint. I also don't want to go through the pain of surgery again, and need help trying to nip this in the bud. I read the sticky on Gyno thoroughly, and have spend two years researching it, but I quite honestly don't have the time to sift through piles of studies on SERMs as a fully time engineering student. Please, if you know of the most reliable way for me to get this back under control chemically rather than surgically, let me know. At 22 years old and in great shape, i shouldn't be terrified to take my shirt off.

-Nick

 

[De Santo]

I am not a doctor so take what I say with a grain of salt.....BUT

1) Have you had your hormone levels checked...test, estrogen, prolactin, etc.?

If not, that would be the first step. If so, what are they right now (not 6 months ago)?

2) If you are going to start the self medication route, you could start with Nolva (SERM) and Exemestane (AI). The SERM will keep the estrogen from binding and the AI will lower your estrogen levels. You may want to use Exemestane over Letro or Arimidex b/c it's a suicide inhibitor.

Maybe dose it like this:
Nolva - 40/40/20/20/0/0
Exemestane - .25/.25/.25/.25/.25/.25

As I said earlier, I am not a doctor nor an expert, so you should really do A LOT of research, plus see a doctor immediately. Start by reading the sticky thread about gyno at the front page of the anabolics section.

I understand you are a still a student, but this is your health and physique that are at risk! If this stress continues, you will not be thinking clearly due to the unnecessary stress and it will ultimately affect your performance at school and overall self confidence. How can you focus if you are worried about growing man boobs???? Don't let this snowball into a multitude of personal issues...go see another doctor ASAP.

 

[De Santo]

I think the title of the sticky thread is something like "If you think you have Gyno: Click Here"

 

[Mikey851]

Agreed ^. If it's gotten worse over time you probably still have a hormonal imbalance; even if the surgery went like you wanted it to it would come back if this is the case.

IMO, I would not start taking anything until I knew my levels. It would be one thing if this were just a small case but the way you describe it any uneducated decisions could worsen your situation.

 

[LilPsychotic]

I concur with De Santo. Hormone levels will definately help. This should definately be in the hands of an endocrinologist, preferably one with some sports medicine background. Best bet is to be honest with these folks and tell them what you took. You should get your hands on some Nolvadex, and see if the swelling subsides. If you choose to use an AI as well, be careful because they obliterate E levels which can give a wicked rebound effect. Nolvadex should be your first line of defense, but since it has been so long, other measures may be nessesary. Gyno is basically a tumor that feeds on estrogen. If not immediately treated, it becomes a fixture under the nipple and is quite troublesome to remove.

 

[nick603]

thanks guys, i really appreciate the responses. i have my post-surgery appointment today with the COL, so I will see if he will prescribe me nolva or exemestane (doubtful, since it's an Army hospital). if i do get these drugs somewhere other than a doctor, i'll be in serious danger of getting kicked out of the army/school. i will also try to get my hormone levels checked today, and hopefully i will be able to give some more constructive information. thanks again for the responses.

 

[youngandfree]

If the doctor didn't do what he said he was going to do why can't you complain? Higher rank or not. As a surgeon he has a duty to fulfill is obligation to you as a patient. And no I'm not in military BTW.

 

[nick603]

Maybe dose it like this:
Nolva - 40/40/20/20/0/0
Exemestane - .25/.25/.25/.25/.25/.25
.

thanks de santo, from the research i've done that looks like a promising cycle and its exactly the type of info i'm trying to get through this thread.

If the doctor didn't do what he said he was going to do why can't you complain? Higher rank or not. As a surgeon he has a duty to fulfill is obligation to you as a patient. And no I'm not in military BTW.

i had my post-surgery appointment today, and i basically told the doctor everything i said in this thread. he seemed surprised that he hadn't done an areolar incision, but agreed with you guys that there is probably an underlying problem that hasn't been corrected if it's coming back this quickly. he referred me to an endocrinologist, i make the appointment monday.

to anyone who has been to an endocrinologist before or knows someone who has, are these the type of guys that could possibly prescribe me a SERM/AI/hormone therapy? i want to try to get this in a legitimate way before i resort to more drastic measures. what type of info should i give the endo, and is there any legal treatment i can try on myself in the mean time? (it might be up to a month before i can get an appointment).

Thanks again everone.

 

[Mikey851]

thanks de santo, from the research i've done that looks like a promising cycle and its exactly the type of info i'm trying to get through this thread.



i had my post-surgery appointment today, and i basically told the doctor everything i said in this thread. he seemed surprised that he hadn't done an areolar incision, but agreed with you guys that there is probably an underlying problem that hasn't been corrected if it's coming back this quickly. he referred me to an endocrinologist, i make the appointment monday.

to anyone who has been to an endocrinologist before or knows someone who has, are these the type of guys that could possibly prescribe me a SERM/AI/hormone therapy? i want to try to get this in a legitimate way before i resort to more drastic measures. what type of info should i give the endo, and is there any legal treatment i can try on myself in the mean time? (it might be up to a month before i can get an appointment).

Thanks again everone.

I have been to an endocrinologist many times. If I were you I would tell him the truth. Yes, if they think necessary they can prescribe you to an AI or hormone therapy etc.

Based on my personal experience I would try Sustain Alpha as reveratrol has anti estrogen/serm like properties and Sustain Alpha has the best absorption rate. They have a new oral SA now that looks cool.

 

[De Santo]

thanks de santo, from the research i've done that looks like a promising cycle and its exactly the type of info i'm trying to get through this thread.



i had my post-surgery appointment today, and i basically told the doctor everything i said in this thread. he seemed surprised that he hadn't done an areolar incision, but agreed with you guys that there is probably an underlying problem that hasn't been corrected if it's coming back this quickly. he referred me to an endocrinologist, i make the appointment monday.

to anyone who has been to an endocrinologist before or knows someone who has, are these the type of guys that could possibly prescribe me a SERM/AI/hormone therapy? i want to try to get this in a legitimate way before i resort to more drastic measures. what type of info should i give the endo, and is there any legal treatment i can try on myself in the mean time? (it might be up to a month before i can get an appointment).

Thanks again everone.

No problem...I just hope you can get this taken care of quickly. Be as honest as possible with the Endo. Don't be afraid to tell him what you've heard worked for other people. All he can say is no, or that he recommends another treatment option. I am sure he will do the right thing...!

 

[urbanski]

be careful telling military docs about AAS use.

 

[LilPsychotic]

be careful telling military docs about AAS use.

Yeah, but technically at the time, he did nothing illegal.

 

[urbanski]

true. he wasnt in at the time. but the way to get steroid tested in the military is to raise suspicion. so when you're in, that's the time to cease any conversation about it to anybody.

 

[nick603]

true. he wasnt in at the time. but the way to get steroid tested in the military is to raise suspicion. so when you're in, that's the time to cease any conversation about it to anybody.

i agree with you on that, i was pretty hesitant. what the doctor basically told me was that anything i did before i signed the papers couldn't be used against me, but i should probably be pretty quiet about it anyways. also i'm clean right now- i assume that since i'm going to an endocrinologist to have my blood hormone levels evaluated that i should probably be off any type of AAS before i go in there so that it doesn't skew the results

 

[De Santo]

Can you post your results when you get them back from the doc? I am curious to see the results.

 

[nick603]

Can you post your results when you get them back from the doc? I am curious to see the results.

absolutely- i find out tomorrow when my endo appointment actually takes place. i'll ask for a detailed print out of my hormone levels / whatever info he can give me to share with you guys. i'm very curious as well.

 

[De Santo]

absolutely- i find out tomorrow when my endo appointment actually takes place. i'll ask for a detailed print out of my hormone levels / whatever info he can give me to share with you guys. i'm very curious as well.

Thanks...I hope the results shed some light on the issue for you.

 

[nick603]

ok, just got back from the endocrinologist (got an appointment on really short notice due to a cancellation). i was honest with him about my history, and he was extremely surprised that no blood tests have been done yet. He wrote me a prescription for 1mg tabs of Arimidex (30 of them), and ordered a blood test: "PRC, TSH, Estradiol, LH, FSH, Testosterone Total & Free, DHEAS, BHCG" are the tests listed on my card. any ideas on arimidex dosage (he suggested mon/wed/fri)? i'm seeing this guy again in 6 weeks to see if the arimidex worked, and if not he's probably going to put me on Clomid too. its entirely dependent on my blood results

 

[Mikey851]

ok, just got back from the endocrinologist (got an appointment on really short notice due to a cancellation). i was honest with him about my history, and he was extremely surprised that no blood tests have been done yet. He wrote me a prescription for 1mg tabs of Arimidex (30 of them), and ordered a blood test: "PRC, TSH, Estradiol, LH, FSH, Testosterone Total & Free, DHEAS, BHCG" are the tests listed on my card. any ideas on arimidex dosage (he suggested mon/wed/fri)? i'm seeing this guy again in 6 weeks to see if the arimidex worked, and if not he's probably going to put me on Clomid too. its entirely dependent on my blood results

That sounds good. I would dose the Arimidex exactly as the doctor prescribed. If your problem is excess estradiol then the Arimidex should at the least stop it from getting any worse. I will be interested to see your blood test results and hear the doctors diagnosis as to what is the root of the cause (ex. not just that you have excess estradiol but why you have excess estradiol).

 

[De Santo]

^^^yup, follow the doctor's recs for now...

 

[nick603]

thanks guys, just went and got blood drawn at the on-post health clinic. some of the tests have to get sent all the way down to Walter Reed, but i should have everything back within a week. unfortunately since a civilian doctor prescribed me the arimidex (even though a colonel referred me) i have to jump through hoops to get it filled- but i'll hopefully be starting that by tonight or early next week. i'll post an update when i get my blood results back, and i'll post any progress with the arimidex treatment (if there is any).

 

[De Santo]

Any updates?

 

[nick603]

Any updates?

started the arimidex on friday. spoke to the endocrinologist via email and he suggested i try taking 1mg every day for 1-2 weeks, then switched to every other day or mon/wed/fri, so after today i'll be up to 6mg of the stuff. i've already noticed a serious reduction in tenderness, and have been feeling a lot differently. from the clinical studies i've seen on this drug, it significantly alters the test-estradiol ratio within the first few weeks.

also i'm calling the hospital lab today to see if i can get my blood results, at least some of them should be done by now.

 

[nick603]

just ran to the post hospital to get my hard copy results. the shocking thing is how un-shocking they are. tell me if i'm missing something important:

• Testosterone Total- 558 (250-1100) ng/dL
• Testosterone Free- 92.1 (35.0-155.0) pg/mL
• Testosterone Free %: 1.65% (1.50-2.20)
• Estradiol- 17.2 (7.6-42.6) pg/mL
• TSH- 2.89 (0.5-5.0) MIU/L
• LH- 3.97 (2.0-12.0) MIU/mL
• FSH- 2.80 (1.0-8.0) MIU/mL
• DHEAS- 276 (110-510) mcg/dL
• BHCG- negative
• Prolactin- 16.9 (1.61-18.77) ng/ML

all these values are within the supplied ranges, but does that mean they're adequate for a very healthy 19 year old? and if so, why did i regrow breast tissue in two months after getting it removed? wtf is wrong with my body

 

[LilPsychotic]

just ran to the post hospital to get my hard copy results. the shocking thing is how un-shocking they are. tell me if i'm missing something important:

• Testosterone Total- 558 (250-1100) ng/dL
• Testosterone Free- 92.1 (35.0-155.0) pg/mL
• Testosterone Free %: 1.65% (1.50-2.20)
• Estradiol- 17.2 (7.6-42.6) pg/mL
• TSH- 2.89 (0.5-5.0) MIU/L
• LH- 3.97 (2.0-12.0) MIU/mL
• FSH- 2.80 (1.0-8.0) MIU/mL
• DHEAS- 276 (110-510) mcg/dL
• BHCG- negative
• Prolactin- 16.9 (1.61-18.77) ng/ML

all these values are within the supplied ranges, but does that mean they're adequate for a very healthy 19 year old? and if so, why did i regrow breast tissue in two months after getting it removed? wtf is wrong with my body

Were you taking Arimidex during the blood work? If so the test results are useless, other than the fact that they tell you that everything is in range. Be careful tapering off of the a-dex, it is strong stuff. I understand that is under doctor's orders, but you may want to suggest to him a slow taper. Also, prolactin looks on the high side, while LH and FSH are still on the low side. If you have already started the A-dex before getting this blood work, these values were probably much different. You may want to take this to the anti-aging forum to get a more experienced opinion.

 

[nick603]

Were you taking Arimidex during the blood work? If so the test results are useless, other than the fact that they tell you that everything is in range. Be careful tapering off of the a-dex, it is strong stuff. I understand that is under doctor's orders, but you may want to suggest to him a slow taper. Also, prolactin looks on the high side, while LH and FSH are still on the low side. If you have already started the A-dex before getting this blood work, these values were probably much different. You may want to take this to the anti-aging forum to get a more experienced opinion.

these tests were taken the day before starting the a-dex, i should have been more clear about that. i know what you mean about it being strong stuff, i've had some depression the past 3 days and i'm always a very happy person.

 

[De Santo]

What did your doctor say? Yeah, like LilPsychotic said...the prolactin obviously close to the top of the range. Have you EVER had any type of nipple leakage? If so, it could be prolactin related.

 

[nick603]

What did your doctor say? Yeah, like LilPsychotic said...the prolactin obviously close to the top of the range. Have you EVER had any type of nipple leakage? If so, it could be prolactin related.

haven't talked to the doctor about it yet, they faxed him the results yesterday afternoon. about 18 months ago the right side of my chest swelled up much much worse than usual and there was some nipple leakage for probably like 48 hours, but other than that i've never had anything close to leakage, even when pressure is applied.

 

[Mikey851]

haven't talked to the doctor about it yet, they faxed him the results yesterday afternoon. about 18 months ago the right side of my chest swelled up much much worse than usual and there was some nipple leakage for probably like 48 hours, but other than that i've never had anything close to leakage, even when pressure is applied.

Definately sounds like you have some Prolactin issues. What is causing it is the question.

 

[nick603]

Definately sounds like you have some Prolactin issues. What is causing it is the question.

i've read up on prolactin a little bit since i got my results back, and haven't found that much research about its interaction with gynecomastia. also, does that mean that the arimidex i'm on isn't doing ****? i'm not aware of it having any affect on prolactin, as prolactin is not affected by the aromatase enzyme. i did read that high prolactin levels in men are usually accompanied by hypogonadism and decreased sexual activity, but my balls are fine and my girlfriend is more than ok with my level of sexual activity. are there any ways to treat high prolactin levels?

 

[Mikey851]

i've read up on prolactin a little bit since i got my results back, and haven't found that much research about its interaction with gynecomastia. also, does that mean that the arimidex i'm on isn't doing ****? i'm not aware of it having any affect on prolactin, as prolactin is not affected by the aromatase enzyme. i did read that high prolactin levels in men are usually accompanied by hypogonadism and decreased sexual activity, but my balls are fine and my girlfriend is more than ok with my level of sexual activity. are there any ways to treat high prolactin levels?

To be honest with you man, I don't know much about prolactin and gyno; some will tell you they aren't even related. I was just basing my comments on the fluid coming from the nipples.

 

[De Santo]

i've read up on prolactin a little bit since i got my results back, and haven't found that much research about its interaction with gynecomastia. also, does that mean that the arimidex i'm on isn't doing ****? i'm not aware of it having any affect on prolactin, as prolactin is not affected by the aromatase enzyme. i did read that high prolactin levels in men are usually accompanied by hypogonadism and decreased sexual activity, but my balls are fine and my girlfriend is more than ok with my level of sexual activity. are there any ways to treat high prolactin levels?

I think prolactin gyno can only take place if your estrogen levels are, or were, out of control at one time. From what I understand, if estrogen is under control then prolactin gyno probably cannot develop.

You can take cabaser (cabergoline), bromocriptine or pramipexole, but they all have potentially bad side effects. B6 and Mucuna Pruriens (DopaBean) are the natural route, but probably won't be effective at this stage.

Ask your doctor if he recommends anything above if this in fact prolactin related. I would think this is prolactin related since you have had discharge from your nipples. I don't have any personal experience, but I have read quite a few posts about guys having leakage and it was from prolactin sides....