Is your offseason becoming a no gain season?
- 09-14-2009, 12:30 PM
Is your offseason becoming a no gain season?
I have read that the human body (in natural athetes)is most anabolic in the 10 to 12 bodyfat range. When bodyfat levels rise, the body becomes more effective at pumping out estrogen and less effective at producing testosterone. Does this mean its basicly impossible to build musce when your fatter I dont want to believe that, cause I love food as much as any of ou. But it makes sense.
thanks for the help
- 09-14-2009, 01:11 PM
I don't know about anabolism and fat levels but it certainly doesn't mean that it's impossible to build muscle when you get fat. I would imagine that testosterone levels in fat people would generally be lower though, due in part to their sedentary lifestyle. I dunno, just a guess.
09-14-2009, 01:30 PM
Absolute bull****, my best natty gains were when i was fat and bulking. It's easiest to gain muscle when you're fat, because you can put your "diet" variable into overcharge, eating so much as to ensure that you gain muscle.
To me: really sore + excess calories = muscle gained
Excessive calories usually come with fat gain. This is how i gained about all of my mass naturally, i bulked up to 240 and 18% just by lifting heavy and eating, eating, EATING.
In about 9 months i went from 205 to almost 240, bench went from 255ish to 325, squats went from around 300 to over 400, could do weighted dips with 100 pounds, curl 135 for 6, all natural, just took a lot of FOOD and heavy ass lifting. It was easy to make these gains when I let bodyfat rise because I was pounding down 4K cals a day and i didn't have to do any cardio, just focused on eating big and lifting big.
I then did my Phera cycle and then Epi/clen cut and came out of that 217 12% and looked 90% as good as I do now 2 years later
So i'm a big fan of bulking big and dirty when you're first starting out and need to build that foundation of muscle... That's what I did and i think it's quite simply the fastest way to get big. You eat like a madman and get your bodyweight up past 200 pounds (well depending on your height) and then all you need is a really controlled cut and I guarantee you'll look fabulous.
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09-14-2009, 02:37 PM
unreal, your such a fat a*s.
you ever watch a strong man comp. those dudes got some muscle. and they are pretty hefty lookin.
09-14-2009, 03:29 PM
In order to gain weight you have to be at a surpluss of calories. with this said I dont believe at all that gains can not be made at a higher bodyfat percentage. above all, that is the point of a bulk. with the studies done im sure that body will be more effcient at gaining muscle in that 10 to 12 range but im sure the difference are minute.
09-14-2009, 06:30 PM
really when people ask me about this I'll put it this way, "bulking is when your just putting on tons of mass and strenghth to build the ice berg and cutting is when you start carefully chiselling away and sculting all your hard work into a masterpiece" haha kinda corny and stupid but it works to get the idea out, from what I read, you can either go up or down, not both ways, it's hard for some to lose fat and gain muscle even with AAS depending on your genetics I hear
09-14-2009, 06:44 PM
I've noticed that food is my greatest variable in recovery. If I'm eating well then I'm able to recover quicker and work the same muscle group effectively much sooner.
When I'm on a loose diet and above maint. cal I can easily do a 5 day split and be back stronger the next week. On a cut I need closer to 10-12 days to fully recover that same muscle group (so a 5 day split over 12 days instead of 7.)
Much harder to gain when you aren't recovering or aren't working out as much.
09-14-2009, 06:49 PM
Have good experience with buliking but I don't want to look fat 8 months a year, cut as hell 3 months and look good the last month... its a personal decision. So now, I try to go a low cal plus of ~300.
If you were fat once in your life, you have more fat cells and will gain fat easier. So I would try to not bulk to dirty or to long.
It also seems that fat men do not respond to exogenious Test very well.
full text: andrologyjournal.org/cgi/rapidpdf/jandrol.108.006296v1
09-14-2009, 06:53 PM
but the problem with getting too fat when bulking is you have to work too hard to get in shape. GEnerally, the more fat you have to loose the more risk of loosing good weight and strength.
09-14-2009, 06:56 PM
09-14-2009, 09:48 PM
Here is another point of view:
The Downside of Bulking
by Charles Poliquin
When taking the initial arm measurements of clients, personal trainers often don't bother to have them flex their arms. It's not because the trainers are planning to have them flex for the "after" measurement and thereby fool their clients into seeming more muscular than they actually are. No, the simple reason these trainers don't have their new clients hit a biceps pose is that it doesn't make any difference if the arm is straight or flexed - you can't flex fat!
Despite this self-evident truth, in the past it was common practice for bodybuilders to engage in the practice of "bulking up" in the off season. The idea was to gain as much bodyweight as possible, even if some of it was fat, and then, when a competition approached, to diet and exercise to lose the fat while attempting to spare as much muscle as possible. While this may have worked in the past for these athletes, the level of not just muscle mass but muscularity that is achievable today is such that even the great Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime would have a hard time winning even state physique competitions.
It's not only bodybuilders who used bulking up. Football linemen, even today, believe that it's best to add as much bodyweight as possible regardless of the composition of that weight. Again, that strategy may have worked in the past, but today's football line, especially defensive linemen, need speed - and excess fat and speed don't mix.
Often I see workout programs on the Internet still promoting the supposed superiority of bulking-up programs. Here are some of the nonsense statements I've read:
"Just gain weight; worry about cutting up later."
"You can't gain muscle without gaining fat."
"Eat Pop-Tarts. They are the most caloric-dense food."
"The key to gaining weight is to eat more candy bars - you can't gain weight on clean foods." Interestingly, the author of that one gives a history of switching brands of candy bars, leading up to the most calorie-dense one.
"Add Nesquik to every protein drink to help you gain weight."
The Downside of Bulking Up
Besides the obvious health problems associated with adding excess fat, bulking up is a really bad approach to trying to achieve your physique goals or athletic fitness goals. Here are six reasons why:
Anti-Bulking Fact #1. Bulking-up diet programs won't produce any more muscle growth than ingesting an ideal amount of nutrients. Sorry, but it's simply not possible to force additional muscle growth by overfeeding.
Anti-Bulking Fact #2. Bulking up makes you more insulin resistant, which makes it harder in the long run to gain muscle. What happens is that carbohydrates will go preferentially to fat stores, not muscle tissue.
Anti-Bulking Fact #3. Bulking up will make it harder for you to get leaner because insulin resistance is hard to reverse. The fatter you get, the harder it becomes to get lean.
Anti-Bulking Fact #4. The fatter you get, the more aromatase enzyme your body will produce. In the extreme, getting fat could be considered a form of self-castration, as your own testosterone will be converted into the female hormone estrogen. If you're a man and you enjoy wearing a bra, go right ahead and get fatter.
Anti-Bulking Fact #5. Getting fatter will ramp down the effectiveness of your thyroid hormone production. The fatter your abdominal wall gets, the less conversion of T4 to T3, the metabolically active form of thyroid.
Anti-Bulking Fact #6. The lower your percentage of body fat, the better your body gets at nutrient partitioning. This means that individuals with low body fat are more effective at storing the ingested nutrients in the muscle (as muscle tissue or glycogen) or in the liver (glycogen) and less effective at storing them as body fat. To put it in simpler terms, leaner individuals can eat more nutrients without gaining fat.
Anti-Bulking Fact #7. Getting fat increases the risk of dying from any cause, even terrorist attacks. I'm serious - you're a bigger target and you can't get out of danger as fast.
A Better Approach
For men, I strongly believe that before trying to put on muscle, your goal should be to keep your body fat at no higher than 10 percent. Ten percent body fat, in my experience, is the threshold for insulin sensitivity.
There is a prevalent theory in the bodybuilding community that you can't lose fat while gaining muscle, but it's simply not true - at least not in my experience. In fact, it is typical for my clients to gain 18 pounds of muscle and lose 12 pounds of fat in the first 12 weeks they train with me.
One of the most important points you should come away with from this article is that insulin sensitivity is your best friend. In addition to avoiding bulking-up diets, there are several supplements that can help with insulin sensitivity. Here are the best ones I've found, along with the appropriate protocols for each of them:
EPA-DHA 780: three to five capsules, three times a day
Fenuplex: two capsules, three times a day
Insulinomics: one tablet, three times a day
Yang R-ALA: three to five capsules, at breakfast and lunch
Yin R-ALA: three to five capsules, at the last two meals of the day
ÜberDHA: three to five capsules, at the last two meals of the day
Follow the protocol above and you will be rapidly on your way to adding muscle mass and decreasing body fat. And best of all, you'll always look your best while doing it
09-15-2009, 01:40 AM
09-15-2009, 11:23 AM
As Poliquin states When you increase your fat/adipose tissue you will produce more Estrogen. Virtually all of the Estrogen a male produces comes via aromatisation of Testosterone. Numerous studies show that extraglandular cells: adipose cells actively promote aromatisation. I love food too and feel stronger when carrying a certain amount of fat but I think that perhaps much over 14-15% in most is probably counter productive.
09-16-2009, 12:06 AM
estrogen is anabolic so is sugar. I love dirty bulking if your fairly muscular you can eat a lot of junk before it makes you very fat. I love poluquins writings but they have to be taken with a grain of salt he trains natural athletes not steroid using bodybuilders per say he also gets a little to scentific a lot of his theorys are very speculative at best.
09-16-2009, 12:10 AM
if I dont eat some junk my stength drops literaly I cut out a few sodas here and there and get noticible weaker. I think fast carbs are somewhat under rated
09-16-2009, 01:55 AM
If you could set up you diet and eat completely clean with the same calories as you would dirtier the difference would be outstanding (in favor of clean with hardly any "fast" carbs).
(Hope this doesn't come off me being a **** )
09-16-2009, 02:02 AM
Some estrogen is anabolic but over a certain amount and it becomes the opposite. Staright sugar offers very little for your health and is actually damaging in some ways.....Postworkout is really the only time that simple carbs are really ideal (and this depends on the person as I can't handle it even in PW).
Even more important in my mind is growing AND being healthy. I want to be bodybuilding and lifting until they put me in a coffin (hopefully a big one!) and eating junk is a good way to an early grave.
09-16-2009, 02:55 AM
09-16-2009, 08:12 AM
as far as junk goes I'll have subway with wheat bread and chicken breast or a McDonalds chicken classic with no sauce. I'll usually just throw out the bun on one of them to keep my carbs low if I'm tring to lean out and just eat the veggies, I have to order 2 ha, one is not enough, I won't eat either of these normally only unless I have depending on the situation I'm in, the chicken classic or whatever is ridicoulous, here in my state at the McDonalds they charge like $4 and sumthin for one, and I get two, idk I think it's a ripoff
09-17-2009, 12:36 AM
as long as you nutrient requirements are met it really doesnt matter that much as people think how you get above maintence weather it be pop or oatmeal if you want to gain strenth and size as fast as possible high glycmic carbs are very good its pretty damn hard to get to 5000 calories with out eating some junk. I dont think a person should really go over 15% bf but it wont kill you there a lot of factors I mean it would be stupid for someone trying to bench 250 to do that but if you were aiming for 400 it might not
09-17-2009, 12:47 AM
but I do actually have scentific reasons for being lazy on my diet I really belive the insulin boost juice and soda give help plus there not very feeling compared to other carbs its not only me thats noticed the soda thing I know its totally crazy soundin and proably better suited for a powerlifter type person but everyone that I know that added soda in the am has told me they also have gained strength even over other healthier carbs I have no Idea how it would happen scentificaly speaking soda is just high frutcose syrup and I used to avoid it like the plauge but I noticed it and actually cleanded my diet up and my strenght dropped it could be insulin I guess or caffine. But I believe it is because its almost competly non feeling even compared to juice allowing you to get free calories
09-17-2009, 12:48 AM
09-17-2009, 01:20 AM
It has long been understood that a calorie is not a calorie.
Do you think that my performance/gains would be better if I ate 300kcals of Krispy Cream or 300kcals of Oatmeal? (hypothetical)
What is your nutrition background?
09-17-2009, 01:23 AM
Check out soda/pop nutrition studies and tell me how you feel then.
How old are you jw?
09-17-2009, 02:19 AM
I obviously don't know you, don't train with you and have no idea what you look like - but, as Grambo said, you are dead wrong. I could get into the details of needing pre workout low glycemic carbs and protein and post workout high glycemic and protein and where that all fits into to protein synthesis, restoring liver and muscle glycogen and all that jazz.
But, honestly, I doubt you'll read it and I doubt you'll really care.
There are a ton of good reasons to eat clean. Its a giant pain and it takes mental fortitude well beyond squating 500 lbs.
But I hope you take the time to think about your posts. A calorie isn't just a calories. Excess above maint matters as much as a strict cut - what you put into your body has a dramatic impact and the gains you get out of it. Its really hard to build muscle without extra protein. You can't bulk up on carbs and expect your body to magically create aminos. Randomly adding extra calories to make a target doesn't suddenly convince your body to grow muscle tissue.
Best of luck on your soda load. I hope you end up getting to your goal with your health intact.
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