Smart newb seeks smart PH advice. - AnabolicMinds.com

Smart newb seeks smart PH advice.

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    Smart newb seeks smart PH advice.


    Hi all. Looking for OTC PH advice; there is a lot of info out there, and I'm the search-research-and-learn type, but I quickly realized that:

    - There's a lot of misinformation out there
    - There's a lot of dated information (i.e., detailed research on banned substances, or stuff that is just plain old old.)
    - I'm still learning what the reputable sources are

    With that in mind, I decided to put up a "help me" thread and throw myself at the mercy of the forums.

    Me:

    Approaching 40. 6'5", 230 lb, likely 22% BF (this may be pessimistic [Edit: 3-site skinfold test shows 17.25% at 231 lb, so this was way off]). Never used any PH. I've used protein, creatine. Currently taking multis, fish oil, resveratrol. Am fairly fit for my age; good BP, blood chem, and libido, seen as 'fit' by peers, FWIW. Only problems are old-injury-related and I'm accustomed to working around them. Oh, and I'm working on getting more/regular sleep.

    Have had a melonoma removed; it was borderline between Stage 1 and merely pre-cancerous. I know cancer is a caution against hormone use, but this was minor and I'm now vigilant.

    Been lifting on and off for over 20 years; accustomed to working around my non-gym injuries (ACL reconstruction, Achilies tendonopathy, herniated cervical discs.) I know good form for what I do. Am a fan of HST and HIIT. Strongly prefer whole-body workouts.

    Looking to bring bodyfat ratio down, would be nice to add some lean mass. Focusing on bodyfat first. Goal over the next year is to increase my lean mass 10 pounds or more, mostly upper body, while getting down to 12% BF and then maintaining that going forwards; I know it will be harder to gain the muscle as I get older, so I want to get into the form I want and then just focus on maintaining. I've maintained old leg strength well, but working around my neck injury and flare-ups leaves my top half wanting, so that will be a focus.

    My diet tends towards vegetarian - no red meat, occasional fish, some chicken, plenty of eggs, more chicken when really working on body comp. I don't drink cow's milk (you wouldn't want to be in the same room if I did), but I'm fine with Silk Soy and it makes great whey shakes.

    I'm a successful professional ready to spend a few dollars on PH to speed the process. Am not interested in anything illegal or injected. I'm just looking for a slight boost so that progress isn't quite so slow, and I want to minimize the downside risks.

    Am especially interested in short cycling. I envision doing a 6-week cycle of lifting using PH during weeks 3 and 4. Would be lifting heavy in weeks 5 and 6 to preserve gains while coming off. Then a week off, and repeat. (General idea referenced in the hypertrophic-specific forums, in the FAQ called "AAS and Prohormones with HST" which I can't link to because I'm a newb here.)

    Am also partial to reducing cortisol; at my age, fighting inflammation is an ongoingg goal. Also, the tendonopathy tends to improve with lower cortisol.

    Not planning to do blood tests right now, but will willing to consider good advice.

    All that having been said - seeking suggesstions on PH to start with! Also seeking advice on credible places to read up on the suggestions. At my BF%, I'm not looking for fat burning help just yet - diet, exercise, and sleep will push the needle the way I want for now. My primary focus is on keeping the muscle I have as I start cutting, and then picking some muscle up. The first cycle should be easy, actually gaining some muscle while losing a bunch of fat. I know I'll have to focus on one or the other as the cycles go on. Right now, I'm in pretty good gym form - have been working out at least once or twice a week for months, just haven't done any strict cycles and have not been eating right. I feel ready to go into a few disciplined cycles with PH in the mix.

    Well, I think that's a long enough intro post... thanks in advance for the replies!

    And now... off to the gym...
    Last edited by MentalNomad; 08-31-2009 at 09:24 AM. Reason: Edit to correct starting weight/bf%

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    If you're really 22% bodyfat at 6'5 and 230 then you don't have much muscle to worry about... You should just diet naturally and cut the fat off. After you get down to like 12% start bulking back up and then look at PH.

    Also a lot of the time people try to lose fat while gaining LBM they end up getting neither. Cut, then bulk, overall it'll take your to your goal faster.

    People who want both at the same time (losing fat while gaining muscle) need to realize that a recomp is the most challenging thing you can do. You're essentially on a VERY restrictive diet (keto or carb cycling), but you're lifting as if you're bulking and doing cardio as if you're cutting. I did a really good recomp but i went to the gym like 10x a week to do it... IME you can't just take a PH and lift and expect to recomp at any really appreciable rate, and if you do then you're not ready for PH in the first place.
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    I'm honestly glad you have taken some time to do a little bit of research. Being that you don't want anything injectable there are a few options on the "lighter" side of things to help out with what you want, though it is hard to advocate steroid usage at 22% BF (hopefully you are right, and just pessimistic). Anyways, a few options come to mind: Hdrol - very mild, low sides, great for cutting and maintaining muscle mass. Epistane - stronger then h-drol; lower dose will do great for leaning out and preserving/building mass. Higher dose can bulk rather nicely should you choose to go this route. Strength gains are rediculous on epi (in my current experience). Lastly, I would say low dose Anavar. At 20-40mg every day anavar will cut fat and preserve/build muscle nicely.

    As with anything of this nature, you have to be paitent with these compounds. Straight cycles should be 4-6 weeks, otherwise you can do longer pulses. These are the three compounds that I think would be best. Make sure your PCT is solid. With h-drol being the most mild of the three you could get away with an OTC pct, otherwise nothing but a SERM will suffice. Good luck on your searching. Hopefully this helps some .
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    If you're really 22% bodyfat at 6'5 and 230 then you don't have much muscle to worry about...
    Ouch. That hurts.

    I think I have to break out my bodyfat calipers... lately, they've only been used to measure my achilles tendons, but maybe I should try using them as god intended.

    You should just diet naturally and cut the fat off. After you get down to like 12% start bulking back up and then look at PH.

    Also a lot of the time people try to lose fat while gaining LBM they end up getting neither. Cut, then bulk, overall it'll take your to your goal faster.
    Points taken. I suspect if I come back with 20% BF your advice will stay unchanged... but to be fair, I don't have any great expectation of muscle gains from my first cycle, which will mostly be for dieting/cutting, anyway. I just know that I'll probably gain a pound or two simply because I'll finally be really focused and diligent about the workouts continuously for more than a few weeks.



    IME you can't just take a PH and lift and expect to recomp at any really appreciable rate, and if you do then you're not ready for PH in the first place.
    Honestly, I agree. I have no expectations of magic. Part of the reason for wanting to start this now is to gain some experience and see how my body reacts now, during my "easy" cycle. I know I'll have a much harder time of it as my bf drops below 15%, which is unfamiliar territory for my body. I prefer to know what I'm doing when I get there, rather than waiting until then to figure it out.

    I have two weeks to figure out if and what I'll try... and maybe I'll do the first cycle clean and see what happens. Thanks for your thoughts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktatro1 View Post
    Straight cycles should be 4-6 weeks, otherwise you can do longer pulses. These are the three compounds that I think would be best. Make sure your PCT is solid. With h-drol being the most mild of the three you could get away with an OTC pct, otherwise nothing but a SERM will suffice. Good luck on your searching. Hopefully this helps some .
    Hmmm. Firstly, if OTC PCT is out of the question with anything stronger than H-Drol, then I'm unlikely to go with anything stronger until I start doing blood tests and clearing things with my doc.

    Nextly, if the 2-week-on 5-week-off idea is a no-go because the compounds really need 4-6 week cycles to be effective, then I'm certainly not going to try anything during my first lifting cycle back... I don't want to be on for that long just yet. I'm going to spend some time looking into the short cycles to see what I can scrounge up.

    And yes, it helps some... thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MentalNomad View Post
    Ouch. That hurts.


    I think I have to break out my bodyfat calipers... lately, they've only been used to measure my achilles tendons, but maybe I should try using them as god intended.



    Points taken. I suspect if I come back with 20% BF your advice will stay unchanged... but to be fair, I don't have any great expectation of muscle gains from my first cycle, which will mostly be for dieting/cutting, anyway. I just know that I'll probably gain a pound or two simply because I'll finally be really focused and diligent about the workouts continuously for more than a few weeks.

    Honestly, I agree. I have no expectations of magic. Part of the reason for wanting to start this now is to gain some experience and see how my body reacts now, during my "easy" cycle. I know I'll have a much harder time of it as my bf drops below 15%, which is unfamiliar territory for my body. I prefer to know what I'm doing when I get there, rather than waiting until then to figure it out.

    I have two weeks to figure out if and what I'll try... and maybe I'll do the first cycle clean and see what happens. Thanks for your thoughts.
    Well i'm not going to hold back, i'm trying to help but in order to do that there's no bull****. What's your bench max, what's your squat max? What do you do for curls, triceps, for rows? That will give me some idea of where you're at but if you post a picture we can tell your bodyfat pretty accurately.

    You're expecting to gain just from consistency and diligence... bro you should already possess those things. You've been lifting for 20 years! That's almost as long as i've been alive. You should have this all down to a T before you start the roids.

    And i see you're talking about weightlifting cycles... this implies that you aren't normally lifting?! And in that case what the hell is your training and where do steroids fit into it??

    Look if you want to make some progress it sounds like it'll be easy, just start lifting 3-5 times a week, doing cardio 3x a week, eating 300g of protein a day and cycling your carbs. Is it hard? Well no, but its time consuming and requires willpower. Will it provide results? DAMN STRAIGHT it will. You have to work for it. This will provide way better gains than during brief spurts of weightlifting with some mild anabolics. When i first ran Hdrol i did the normal dose and made 0 gains.

    Anyway seriously tell us more about your lifting maxes and you training style and your diet. It seems to me you can benefit much more from maximizing those variables than by introducing the Steroid variabe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MentalNomad View Post
    Hmmm. Firstly, if OTC PCT is out of the question with anything stronger than H-Drol, then I'm unlikely to go with anything stronger until I start doing blood tests and clearing things with my doc.

    Nextly, if the 2-week-on 5-week-off idea is a no-go because the compounds really need 4-6 week cycles to be effective, then I'm certainly not going to try anything during my first lifting cycle back... I don't want to be on for that long just yet. I'm going to spend some time looking into the short cycles to see what I can scrounge up.

    And yes, it helps some... thanks.
    What is a 2 week on 5 week off idea? I have never heard that.....the longer the cycle the better in many aspects. (Obviously this is situational on the compound and other details)

    You will need at least 4 weeks of something and I personally feel OTC PCT is only ok with Bold mostly and lower dose Hdrol.
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    Ya Id say drop the anabolics idea and just clean up ur diet and get consistant with ur lifting. Maybe add in a fat burner down the road.
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    Quick update... 3-pt skinfold shows about 17.25% bf. I think I'm a little heavy on the visceral fat right now, so I'l round it up to 18%. Clearly, I was still way off on my pessimistic original estimate!

    Other notes:

    UnrealMachine, max squat was 265x3 (with real depth, no partials), max sldl 315x3. Never tested my 1rm. I'm not far off those marks now. Don't know my bench; if I go over 180 or so, my shoulder pops out. Machines are safer for me.

    On lifting cycles - HST is one of many lifting protocols that is cyclical. It runs through a few weeks of low weight/high rep, followed by a few weeks of moderate weight/moderate rep sets, and closes with a few weeks of high weight/low rep sets. Close with at least a week off for intentional deconditioning, then repeat.

    As far as lifting for 20 years - like I said, been lifitng on and off for 20 years. More was off than on! I've been through a variety of injuries as well as many spates of adult life getting in the way. I'd appreciate if you'd cut me a little slack. It's not about where I am, it's about getting where I'm going.

    Gotta run - more later, when I'm at a PC.
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    You said was your max. Have you not been lifting lately?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grambo View Post
    What is a 2 week on 5 week off idea? I have never heard that.....the longer the cycle the better in many aspects. (Obviously this is situational on the compound and other details)
    Bill Roberts was one of the early advocates, (see The 2-On, 4-Off Cycle: A Case Study by Bill Roberts ), but others have written on it.

    The idea is based on the fact that unlike injectable anabolics like Testosterone Enanthate which take a few weeks to be fully absorbed, many of the orals become very quickly active. If the orals are processed by the body and result in increased blood androgens within a day or two, then a short cycle is feasible. Two weeks on should have effective results, although it will be harder to see them in a mirror than a 4 or 6 week cycle.

    With only 2 weeks on, the side effects are limited - especially considering that most people experience more serious sides only later in a cycle. Also, the short cycles seem to make recovery afterwards easier, so PCT can be milder, as well. And there's far less risk of shutting down.

    Brian Hay**** suggested that if someone were to do multiple cycles of HST-style training and involve PH or AAS, one smart way to do it would be to do a 2-week cycle about 4 weeks before the end of lifting... that way, the subject is progressing into 2 weeks of their heaviest weights just after coming off the 2-week PH cycle, which should do a lot to preserve the gains from the cycle. A fairly typical 7-week HST cycle would have 6 weeks lifting, and one week off... so introducing 2-week PH cycles leads to a 2-on, 5-off pattern from the PH perspective.

    The short cycles and time off make PCT and recovery lighter and easier and reduce the chances of sides and massively reduce the risk of shutdown. Meanwhile, spreading a six week cycle into 21 weeks (three 7-week cycles with 2 on) spreads the gains out, keeping things much more gradual - which, from an appearance standpoint, can be much more appealing than ballooning for a month and a half along the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grambo View Post
    You said was your max. Have you not been lifting lately?
    I have been lifting... I just don't got to my 3RM often, and have never tested my 1RM. From how I feel squatting 225, I know I can break 250x3, maybe even 265x3 if I cycled up to it.

    I have achilles tendinopathy, a replaced ACL (sports injury), torn or attenuated ligament in a shoulder (from a dive roll over a table), two herniated discs in my neck (encounter with ice-covered granite and a frisky dog), and am almost 40.

    I know how to work around my injuries by now, but I see no need to test my limits if there's no reason to take on the risk!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MentalNomad View Post
    Quick update... 3-pt skinfold shows about 17.25% bf. I think I'm a little heavy on the visceral fat right now, so I'l round it up to 18%. Clearly, I was still way off on my pessimistic original estimate!

    Other notes:

    UnrealMachine, max squat was 265x3 (with real depth, no partials), max sldl 315x3. Never tested my 1rm. I'm not far off those marks now. Don't know my bench; if I go over 180 or so, my shoulder pops out. Machines are safer for me.

    On lifting cycles - HST is one of many lifting protocols that is cyclical. It runs through a few weeks of low weight/high rep, followed by a few weeks of moderate weight/moderate rep sets, and closes with a few weeks of high weight/low rep sets. Close with at least a week off for intentional deconditioning, then repeat.

    As far as lifting for 20 years - like I said, been lifitng on and off for 20 years. More was off than on! I've been through a variety of injuries as well as many spates of adult life getting in the way. I'd appreciate if you'd cut me a little slack. It's not about where I am, it's about getting where I'm going.

    Gotta run - more later, when I'm at a PC.
    Alright i'm glad your bodyfat checked out lower. With the lifting i'm still confused, you say you like to do full body workouts. So its full body workouts that follow a cyclical progression in terms of weight/reps?

    I'm not sure but if you are doing full body workouts a few times a week, i think you should change that to a bodybuilding split and start moving towards your goals for a few months before you do a cycle. Get yourself locked in "the groove" of things and make some gains/fat losses at your own rate. Set a goal and reach it. Then introduce the steroid variable. Lifting heavier will work wonders for gaining more mass, as for the intensity that's what cardio is for. When i'm lifting i do over 2 minutes between sets. I give myself plenty of time to recover energy because then my muscles can work that much harder on the next set. A lot of my lifting philosophy is based on DC training but i reverse it and do big resting period so that I can lift heavier every set. But DC training would also be good for you to look into.

    I know you have to work around injuries. usually you can find the exercises that are still good for you

    I didn't mean to be rude, but there's a big difference between 18% bf and 22% bodyfat.

    anyway bottom line
    1) carb cycling and additional cardio to lose bodyfat
    2) train for a while before starting the cycle to assess the rate of natural gains
    3) bodybuilding split when on the cycle... Don't do only full-body workouts, you can't work yourself nearly hard enough doing those.
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    I'm on my iPhone but 2 weeks on a steroid just seems.... Dumb. The main reason is that few kick in asap and you couldn't make any significant muscle gain in 2 weeks. I always say if you are worried about suppression, don't do steroids.
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    2 weekers only work with a few compounds 1) SD 2) Epi 3) M1T 4) Dbol...
    Probably a few others but you get the point

    I wouldn't run a 2 weeker myself but i think you could cycle 2 weekers in effectively if you do the right compound and dose. Obviously a 2 weeker with Hdrol at 50 is a waste. But a 2 weeker of Sdrol at 20 will be very effective
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    your making something simple into science your to week to even worry about cycleing weights and stuff thats advanced you just need to eat good and lift heavy full body workouts are good but hst wouldnt be good for you at this point why deload and stuff when you havent lifted anything, Keep it simple I like the full bodyworkouts but you could follow the hst framework but dont worry about having ur light weeke at your weekness you should try to add weight every workout perdozation is more for people trying to add last bits of strenght and size and natural athletes
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    Obviously a 2 weeker with Hdrol at 50 is a waste.
    I did some Turinabol 4 week cycles and every time the most gains came in the first 2 weeks.
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    Gonzogo, it's not like it quit working after two weeks. The East Germans used Tbol for weeks on in with their athletes. Also 4chlor PH is a little different since the conversion rate is relatively low, it has some of it's own intrinsic value.
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    What bothers me is you said you don't eat beef.

    Big mistake on a bulk or PH cycle, I think.

    Red meat's one of the best muscle builders, period. I know it can be high in sat fats and cholesterol, but if you eat lean cuts, like skirt steaks, sirloin and top round and are taking your fish oils and maybe some liver supps, you should be fine. Plus, you need sat fats for test production and nerve function and I think alotta people forget that. A good ALA supp or mayo, wouldn't hurt, either. Mayo's mostly soybean oil and actually quite low in sat fats and loaded with good fats and tons of ALA. per serving. Look at a Hellmans' label. I sh_t you , not.

    If you hosed your shoulder and I know hosed shoulders (dislocation, radiculopathy, supraspinatis tedinopathy, glenohumeral cyst and.........impingement) ......go light and use volume to get blood flowing to the area and do rotator cuff exercises, too. Tends, ligs and supports are notorious for poor blood supply and hence slow healing. Avoid heavy overhead movements and concentrate on light raises with strict, but not restrictive form and give 'em plenty of rest. Alotta these PH's tend to be dry on joints, esp. Epi and HDrol from what I hear, so joint supps are a must. I like Animal Flex EOD. I think it's too much ED. Plus, on cycle people tend to push very hard and that's when injuries happen. Also, avoid behind the neck stuff and utilize the smith machine for benches and rows to help your form and reduce the chance of injuries.

    Most people favor HDrol by CEL as a good starter. My friends and I agree. You could even run OTC PCT and prolly be ok plus you'd get a feel for how your joints and body are gonna react in the future then you could move up to like PPlex or Epi or maybe even Mass Tabs if you respond well as it is well tolerated so far by many people.


    I'll be doing them in Oct and logging it. Can't fu_king wait.


    Eat alotta meat, dammnit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and good luck, man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    2 weekers only work with a few compounds 1) SD 2) Epi 3) M1T 4) Dbol...
    Probably a few others but you get the point

    I wouldn't run a 2 weeker myself but i think you could cycle 2 weekers in effectively if you do the right compound and dose. Obviously a 2 weeker with Hdrol at 50 is a waste. But a 2 weeker of Sdrol at 20 will be very effective
    Now the research is getting more interesting. I'm certainly not doing a 4-6 week cycle any time soon, so if I do anything, it will be a 2-week "short cycle" or "pulse."

    I do notice that most people running Hdrol have a gradual ramp-up, and those same people tend to note "little effect" until 3-5 weeks in... what's the deal here?

    Is the gradual ramp-up intended to avoid some short of shock or toxicity? What's the purpose?

    It would seem that, if there's a dose-response relationship, or if there's an effective threshold that needs to be passed, the gradual ramp-up is simply wasted time (and money.) On the other hand, it's also possible that the early weeks ARE having an effect, but it's simply too small for most users to notice until they have several weeks of progress.

    I'm going to be looking more at any non-banned OTC options that are "fast-response" to figure out what I might try. My initial gut reaction was to avoid anything that produces a lot of wet gain... but with the Short Cycle, the effect will be less obvious, and I'll have 5 weeks to cut before the next Short Cycle, so maybe I should be less concerned with that, and focus more on whatever will produce effective gains with a rapid response.

    If I do run something, I'll do my best to log it - I know I'm proposing something a bit unconventional and some people might have genuine interest in the results of the experiment - but my upcoming months are going to be very busy, so I make no promises.
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    Quote Originally Posted by droppinplates View Post
    If you hosed your shoulder and I know hosed shoulders (dislocation, radiculopathy, supraspinatis tedinopathy, glenohumeral cyst and.........impingement) ......go light and use volume to get blood flowing to the area and do rotator cuff exercises, too. Tends, ligs and supports are notorious for poor blood supply and hence slow healing. Avoid heavy overhead movements and concentrate on light raises with strict, but not restrictive form and give 'em plenty of rest. Alotta these PH's tend to be dry on joints, esp. Epi and HDrol from what I hear, so joint supps are a must.
    The shoulder injury is waaaay old... I think I was 17 when I did the dive over the table. Never got proper medical attention, and never did find out exactly what was attenuated... The shoulder is fine for every-day purposes, and never gives pain. But if I do a barbell press, going heavy makes it pop out and cuts out all my power. It doesn't fully dislocate, just pops outwards. Racking the weight returns it. No pain.

    Shoulder holds up fine for most machines and even for dumbell presses; I can push a pair of 100's with no shoulder complaint, but can't do a barbell. Have played with narrow grips, high/low bar positions, elbows in/out, everything I can think of, but the shoulder won't stay put.

    I also can't do military presses, but that's because of my neck - any two-arm overhead press pulls down both sides of the high traps and compresses the cervical spine, which makes my C5,6 and C6,7 discs spread, and then they impinge on the nerves and set off all sorts of problems.

    That's for the reminder to pay attention to the effect of different PH on joints; obviously, that will have to be a factor for someone with accumulated injuries. Again, though, the idea is that the Short Cycles will minimize the downside. From what I'm seeing, people usually report joints acting up towards the end of their cycles... and it's probably partly compounded by the weights they're tossing around with the extra strength from the PH. Since I'll be ending my lifting cycle heavy, but OFF the stuff, I shouldn't have the kind of strength at the end to really aggravate things.
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    What is your negativity toward doing a real 4-6 week cycle?

    Oh and the Hdrol like many of the compounds are usually ramped up on first runs or so in case you can make gains at the lower dosing you don't need to ramp up as well as to see if you happen to have some adverse effect with the compound. I rand hdrol starting out on the higher end and stayed there throughout with great results.
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    I am starting my cycle soon after i finish up the asteroid stack and would appreciate advice as to which..I work out 5 days a week and have been for 5 yrs...I have never done a PH but physically I am ready...mY main goal truly is to harden up what I have and to shred out while adding strength..Not really concerned with getting ultra big yet..Just harden up and get more defined strength...The 2 I was thinking of were Hdrol or epistane....which would you all recommened to achieve my goal??
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfe14 View Post
    I am starting my cycle soon after i finish up the asteroid stack and would appreciate advice as to which..I work out 5 days a week and have been for 5 yrs...I have never done a PH but physically I am ready...mY main goal truly is to harden up what I have and to shred out while adding strength..Not really concerned with getting ultra big yet..Just harden up and get more defined strength...The 2 I was thinking of were Hdrol or epistane....which would you all recommened to achieve my goal??
    Make your own thread bud I will jump in it if you do, just don't want this thread hijacked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grambo View Post
    Make your own thread bud I will jump in it if you do, just don't want this thread hijacked.
    OOps my appologies....My thread is titled "PH or steroids for lean gains & cutting" would greatly appreciate your advice..thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grambo View Post
    What is your negativity toward doing a real 4-6 week cycle?
    Why short cycles?
    Because it may have a lot of advantages and not a lot of disadvantages. I think it's worth considering, so I'll try to lay out all the reasoning behind this one.


    Why 4-6 week cycles in the first place?
    With slow-acting injectables, you need many days - or weeks - before it's fully active and having an effect. Also, with the long half-lives, it can be weeks after the last dose before you're really "off." Clearly, if it takes you over a week to get fully "on" and over a week to get fully "off" it makes no sense not to make the cycle three weeks or longer - you want to have SOME time in the "effective" zone.

    But with fast-acting orals, those ground rules don't exist any more. Many of them have half-lives measured in hours - they day you start dosing, you're "on," and the day after you stop, you're "off."


    Short-cycles, long-term goals
    Break away from the psychology of wanting huge gains per cycle. Suppose a 2-week cycle gets a 6 pound lean gain. Sounds a little lame, to some... I think I've seen a 6-pound weight change just taking a dump. But that's the same rate of growth that gets you 18 lean pounds while on a 6-week cycle - 3 pounds per week.

    The real question is results over time... consider how much time you need to spend "off' to recover. For a 6-week cycle you might have a 6-week PCT, and then 12 weeks "off." So in 24 weeks, you spend 6 "on" to grow 18 pounds (and if you retain 12 when all is said and done, you've done well.) That's a retained rate of .5 lb. per week over 24 weeks.

    Compare to two-week cycles... two weeks on, two weeks off, four week break... in eight weeks, you're "on" for two and gain 6 lean pounds (hoping to keep 4.) But that's only eight weeks. You can do that whole routine three times in the 24 weeks spent by the 6-week cycler... so you gain 6 three times (or 18), keeping 4 three times (or 12). Same result.


    More, but smaller, ups and downs
    On the face of it, 2-week cycles already appeal to me. I much prefer my weight to track in a tighter range. Gaining and losing that kind of weight (lean gains plus water, fat) in a month or two is very apparent to friends, family, colleagues... and requires a very flexible wardrobe. I'm a professional with a professional wardrobe... no ties go well with sweatpants! I want to limit the wings and steadily approach my goals as much as possible.


    Fewer sides
    I also like the idea of fewer sides. Many people don't have any sides until they've been "on" for a greater nubmer of weeks - four or more. Two-week cycles should dramatically limit the sides - always a good thing.

    But wait, it gets better... ask yourself, why PCT? Why time to "recover?" You're waiting for endogenous T production to return to normal and stablize there because of suppression after many weeks "on." Well, the supression effect is minimized if you spend fewer weeks "on!" (See discussions about "pulsing.") "Pulsing" advocates are usually looking for ways to safely extend cycles or stay "on" for a long time, but Why not take advantage of that knowledge for more traditional cycling? Extended suppression tends to kick in after the - wait for it - two-week mark.

    With a two-week cycle, you can get by with a limited or mild PCT, or perhaps none at all... and since endogenous T recovers quickly, you don't need as many weeks off between cycles. So you don't need as long between cycles to be "safe." If you can cut the overall time to seven weeks (two "on," five "off"), you can actually do even better than a traditional cycle. Retaining four pounds gained every seven weeks is a rate of .57 pounds per week: more than the six-week "on" cycle!

    So, summing up...
    • Gains, long-term, may be just as good. (Comparing multiple short cycles to one long cycle.)
    • Sides will be less (though some sides are more dose/response than time-based)
    • Risk of shutdown/need for PCT reduced (two weeks is a a max run length in this respect, and for people prone to shutdown, they may still need PCT)
    • Weight fluctuations will be less dramatic


    For me, personally, ALL of these are plusses. And as long as the progress is there (i.e., being "on" for short cycles actually WORKS), then I don't see much downside. It's certainly worth a low-risk try, for me.



    Note: in conjunction with this, I will be doing an HST-style weight progression.

    Specifically, my plan is the following:

    • two weeks working a higher rep range with lower weights (15's), gradually increasing the weight and lowering the reps to 12's in the second week
    • two weeks at a moderate range (11 rep, 10 rep, 9's, 8's), weight still increasing
    • three weeks at a lower-rep range, gradually geting heavier until I'm doing 5's

    I plan to do my two-week cycle "on" as weeks four and five - in other words, at the tail end of the moderate-rep range. The reasoning here is twofold:

    First, by putting in a few weeks of clean higher-rep workouts, the muscles should be in good shape, recovering well and primed to grow, and the weights are still getting into a really productive range while I go "on."

    Secondly, by ending my "on" cycle before the heaviest part of the HST weight progression, I get the stimulus of the heaviest weights after I'm "off." This should help retain the gained muscle tissue as much as possible as I come "off." I want to have at least two weeks after, while pushing heavier weights than while I was "on."

    After my two or three weeks "off" while pushing the heavy weight, I take a week off of lifting at all - decon break.

    Should run me a total of 7 weeks, eight with the break. Then I start over and do it again.


    This may be more long-winded than you expected when you asked... but I thought it was worth putting out there.
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    That is all theory and opinion.

    Why do you personally have against long cycles? What appeals to you?
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    What do I have against long cycles? What appeals to me?

    You're asking my opinion immediately after dismissing a long post for being theory and opinion... what exactly are you fishing for? Or did you just not see the answers to your questions in what I wrote?
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    Sorry didn't see you posted some of your own stuff. Will look. I meant that the write up was theory and opinion and not really proven.
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    Try it out man, it's really up to you. I just feel actual cycles are tried and true through years of use, also don't believe gains will be equal. Let us know you seem dead set on it.
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    Not quite dead set, but pretty close at this point. If I do, I'll try to do a log online. At the very least, I'll be reporting back with my results.
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