On the Fence about use

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    On the Fence about use


    True or false--- ph's have a worse side effects to benefits ratio compared to aas. Now im also wondering what are the side effects?! Im mostly worried about the cancer potential which rises alot if taking roids as i heard. can someone please help me be less nervous or whatever about taking roids?! thank you.

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    this is false.

    I would suggest you research more on androgens and their sides.

    the only pro hormone you can still legally buy is dhea. this is the only supplement that converts into a hormone. either estrogen, or test.

    the rest are either pro steroids, or designer steroids. and the side effects are the same for them as illegal steroids. each aas is different, so some may differ. it is your job to research each compound you are interested in, to find out the pro's and cons of using it. but for most who do the proper research, the benifits out weigh the negatives greatly.

    for a healthy male, who knows what he is doing, Anabolic Androgenic Steroids will pose little to no risk.
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    i think the difference may lie in the way it is administered also. all Pro steroids are orals, and orals can take a considerable toll on your liver and other internal organs compared to injectables.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    this is false.

    I would suggest you research more on androgens and their sides.

    the only pro hormone you can still legally buy is dhea. this is the only supplement that converts into a hormone. either estrogen, or test.

    the rest are either pro steroids, or designer steroids. and the side effects are the same for them as illegal steroids. each aas is different, so some may differ. it is your job to research each compound you are interested in, to find out the pro's and cons of using it. but for most who do the proper research, the benifits out weigh the negatives greatly.

    for a healthy male, who knows what he is doing, Anabolic Androgenic Steroids will pose little to no risk.
    Im pretty sure alot of these new orals are in many ways worse than researched backed pharmaceutical grade AAS, Im not sure where you got that info...also Im pretty sure theres a few prohormones out right now

    The dienelone prohormones eg.extreme tren/diendrone etc etc
    Bold ring a bell? bold is a prohormone

    if noone said anything this false information might have led this guy in the wrond direction, it might actually be you that needs to research a little more.
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    Didnt we have a similar arguement the other night where you guaranteed me that p mag doesnt convert or metabolize to anything? when in fact it metabolized to clostebol.

    Im not trying to be a dck although im sure you will take it like this but I have just recently seen you on the forum and ive seen you give some bad advice and some unbacked statements.
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    okay, bold, dienelone, those are analogs of testosterone. ie, pro steroids. they convert into steroids, not a natural hormone of the body. companies use the term "pro hormone" to sk8 away from the fda eye. when in fact, any educated user will know what they really are, designer steroids, (sd,hd,pp,pmag,m14ad,fura,etc) or pro steroids(bold,dien)
    4-androstenediol converted into test, a natural hormone of the body, this was a pro hormone, 1-ad converted into 1-test, this was a pro steroid, as the body does not produce this hormone, nor does it make boldenone, or dienelone.
    liver hepatotoxicity is severly over rated. and most of the researched pharmaceutical grade oral aas come from underground labs.

    decide what you want from your research. oral steroids are safe when used in moderation at safe dosages.

    Im right, and know im right, yes im bold enough to say that. if you would like me to lead you to the info, let me know, i'll be glad to explain anything to you, and show you where to read the info from the experts.

    you should go back and read the post. I've never seen any data on conversion of pmag or hd to convert into clos. only ever been speculation, just cause a rep says it does doesn't mean sht, it says that on the label too. you dont really believe when you look at the label for sd, that it is a pro hormone?
    unreal agrees, as most users who know what they are talking about will tell you this.
    I have no problem telling it how it is, or admitting when Im wrong, I care . much about rep points, no offense to you, please research more before arguing with me.

    I can back any statement I make, If I cant, then i'll be wrong, my join date is different due to my having "fun" with moderators.
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    ok, what I thought a definition of a prohormone was, was that if it needed any conversion at all to become the target hormone...then it was a prohormone. Ive never in my life heard bold been called a prosteroid either, maybe we just agree to disagree.

    and what about ur p mag discussion, you guaranteed me it did not convert nor metabolize to anything...well i guarantee you that is wrong.

    Anyone else have an opinion? simply for educational purposes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    okay, bold, dienelone, those are analogs of testosterone. ie, pro steroids. they convert into steroids, not a natural hormone of the body.
    liver hepatotoxicity is severly over rated. and most of the researched pharmaceutical grade oral aas come from underground labs.

    decide what you want from your research. oral steroids are safe when used in moderation at safe dosages.

    Im right, and know im right, yes im bold enough to say that. if you would like me to lead you to the info, let me know, i'll be glad to explain anything to you, and show you where to read the info from the experts.
    Nothing is "safe" Some people seem to get extremely sick from a very small dose of something someone else has to mega dose to get effects from.

    On the Pro steroid thing....Test is a steroid....but it is a natural hormone in the body...so...that contradicts the way you just explained that, because a steroid is not a natural hormone, correct? Bad wording
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    for the sake of argument,

    Anabolic steroids, or anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS), are a class of steroid hormones related to the hormone testosterone.

    so there I technically am wrong. I think of pro hormones to convert into a hormone that the body will produce. and the term pro steroid to convert into a steroid the body doesn't produce. just like I think of the term "designer steroid" as a steroid, tweaked out to make it legal, and needing no conversion, active on its own, like demethylated winstrol, furazabol, superdrol, etc.

    and I never guaranteed it doesn't convert, I said if any did convert, it would be very little. and that there was no proof it does.

    and it is a general consensus that if a healthy adult male with no underlying health problems will be safe and fine with using a steroid cycle in safe moderate dosages. thats why I said that, and that he should do more research, so he can know the possible side effects, and if he may be prone to any.
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    Wording here is a bunch of semantics. PH generally refers to every one of the anabolics that is sold OTC regardless of what it technically is.

    Generally speaking, the PHs are much more dangerous than AAS (when I say AAS I am talking about Test, Deca, Dbol, EQ, Tren, you get the point...). The reason is simple, all PHs are orals and unlike AAS, they have little to no research behind them. AAS have been used to decades, with doctor supervision and bloodwork performed thousands of times, people have a better sense of how they work and how people will respond to them.

    With PH, as we know, response varies widely. Personally Epi didn't produce measureable gains for me. My friend runs the same things and made the kind of insane gains I could only do with Superdrol. Orals aren't just more dangerous because of liver toxicity, but there's also kidney toxicity, blood pressure and lipid damage is usually greater with orals. They tend to be more potent, and MUCH MUCH more potent mg/mg (of course). The shutdown with orals is also pretty high, especially with some of the progestin based ones (I am talking about "tren" and Max LMG).


    Anyway to answer the OP's question, AAS will have a better gain to side ratio than the legal PHs you can obtain. AAS are better in a couple ways... firstly because the load they put on organs is much, much less, they can be used in greater doses and for much longer durations. Secondly, BECAUSE they can be run for greater durations, it is possible to retain a much greater proportion of the gains made.

    This should be very obvious. Say you put on 20 pounds in a 4 week Superdrol run, and in another parallel universe you put on 20 pounds on a 12 week test/deca run. Which cycle are you going to keep more gains on? Which cycle will produce more quality LBM? Which cycle will produce less side effects?

    The conclusion is obvious.
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    I agree somewhat with that. I feel that orals can be used just as safely as injectables. that is from what i've read on orals, the studies on it. and my own personal experienced. I have to make it quick the wife is callin, but its just a diff of opinion. I can show you post from reports of enlarged hearts etc, but wife is bothering me, have to go.

    the point is, research, weigh the options, and decide for yourself.
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    Orals CAN be used very safely. But inherently they are less safe.
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    and plain and simple fact. IM injections such as those with AAS bi-pass the liver, therefore not putting a massive load on your liver. (except for in the case of oral AAS like anadrol which is very liver toxic, hence saying injectable IM) AAS is than uptaken into the cells and never passes through that of the liver. in conclusion orals, such as all PH PS ect are more toxic and harmful to the body.
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    ver good point by unreal by the way how PH's arnt really researched and AAS are all pharmacuticel grade, proven, made for curing illness grade products that have been around since the early 60's and have been researched to all hell. very good point unreal.
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    Apparently anadrol was used to treat wasting patients, dosed up to 500mg a day for long, long periods of time. I believe it took months at that dose for a ~100 pound female to develop liver problems. The article is floating around somewhere. But anyway yes real AAS have research and #s backing them up.

    Many PHs just have supplement propaganda backing them up... Like that claim that dymethazine isn't liver toxic... bull****.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisG View Post
    and plain and simple fact. IM injections such as those with AAS bi-pass the liver, therefore not putting a massive load on your liver. (except for in the case of oral AAS like anadrol which is very liver toxic, hence saying injectable IM) AAS is than uptaken into the cells and never passes through that of the liver. in conclusion orals, such as all PH PS ect are more toxic and harmful to the body.
    but man...if you read dudes post HE GUARANTEED HE WAS RIGHT!

    lol, most of his arguement was washed away.
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    good read this
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisG View Post
    and plain and simple fact. IM injections such as those with AAS bi-pass the liver, therefore not putting a massive load on your liver. (except for in the case of oral AAS like anadrol which is very liver toxic, hence saying injectable IM) AAS is than uptaken into the cells and never passes through that of the liver. in conclusion orals, such as all PH PS ect are more toxic and harmful to the body.
    What I have bolded in the quote is entirely false. ANYTHING THAT ENTERS THE BLOODSTREAM WILL PASS THROUGH THE LIVER. More accurately, injectables will bypass the first pass through the liver. Anything taken orally will usually hit the liver before it enters the bloodstream. This is the main reason for methylation of oral steroids. Injectables however will pass through the liver once subjected through bloodstream circulation. The way to prolong steroidal effects is to use things like enanthate, which allows for a prolonged realease. While some of the steroid is being filtered by the liver, the enanthate releases active hormone into the body to keep levels of "X" steroid in circualation. Just because you inject DOES NOT mean that the steroid is not subject to liver deactivation.
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    there are some good posts here...maybe we all should be a little more careful with our hypothesis and opinions on these things, there are just so many variables involved, and so much different contradicting posts on the internet. In this I include myself because I have stated incorrect facts myself.

    See where Im still stuck id how dude said Bold wasnt a prohormone? or the dienelone prohormoes? and how he guaranteed it? as well he promised me pro magnon doesnt metabolize to anything....when im almost certain it metabolizes to Clostebol?
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    in conclusion orals, such as all PH PS ect are more toxic and harmful to the body.
    This is also inaccurate. Many side effects are dosage dependant as well as how long the steroid is in use for. For the sake of keeping things short though, Anavar is considered one of (if not) the safest steroid(s) to use, even though it is oral and methylated. I do agree that most orals have the capability of being more dangerous, however this is not always the case. There are usually always exceptions

    Sorry for picking apart your post Travis, I just feel your information (or wording) was not as accurate as should be when discussing such matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisG View Post
    ver good point by unreal by the way how PH's arnt really researched and AAS are all pharmacuticel grade, proven, made for curing illness grade products that have been around since the early 60's and have been researched to all hell. very good point unreal.
    Really, again, not to be a d*ck....AAS were developed in the 30s, not the 60s. I feel bad for continuously ripping apart your posts but the accuracy......
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktatro1 View Post
    This is also inaccurate. Many side effects are dosage dependant as well as how long the steroid is in use for. For the sake of keeping things short though, Anavar is considered one of (if not) the safest steroid(s) to use, even though it is oral and methylated. I do agree that most orals have the capability of being more dangerous, however this is not always the case. There are usually always exceptions

    Sorry for picking apart your post Travis, I just feel your information (or wording) was not as accurate as should be when discussing such matters.
    dont apologize, Im sure hes kool and will handle the constructive criticism.

    any thoughts on why the other dude says Tren extreme and Bold arent prohormones? and how he could guarantee that? i mean when I was 18 I guaranteed I would make it to the major leagues.....

    still waiting for that contract offer...
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    just my .02.... the golden days when AAS were provided by doctors and monitered by the FDA as far as quality and making sure the manufacturers stayed within a certain set of guidlines for production are almost gone. unless you have a 1st person connection in a pharmacy, its very hard to be positive that the gear your getting isnt bunk, made in some home grown lab in the bathtub. AT THE VERY LEAST you can put a little faith in the fact that with new bigger DS companies (RPN and such..) there is a bit of sanitation and guidelines and protocal thats gotta be followed. its a gamble, unless you know firsthand, whether or not your gettin real gear or some cut veggy oil in a nice glass vile.
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    Anadrol, not anavar ktatro. also known as oxymetholone.
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    and again, AAS were not used as "bodybuilding steroids" until the 60's
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    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=350317

    That is the site where i got it from. the guy who said it is usually thought of in high regard but according to you guys he is a flake. I was just wondering. And if someone, who knows their fine educational info on this subject, would be nice enough to pm me about this, so that we dont bother these nice people on the board, i would greatly appreciate it. thank you again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktatro1 View Post
    What I have bolded in the quote is entirely false. ANYTHING THAT ENTERS THE BLOODSTREAM WILL PASS THROUGH THE LIVER. More accurately, injectables will bypass the first pass through the liver. Anything taken orally will usually hit the liver before it enters the bloodstream. This is the main reason for methylation of oral steroids. Injectables however will pass through the liver once subjected through bloodstream circulation. The way to prolong steroidal effects is to use things like enanthate, which allows for a prolonged realease. While some of the steroid is being filtered by the liver, the enanthate releases active hormone into the body to keep levels of "X" steroid in circualation. Just because you inject DOES NOT mean that the steroid is not subject to liver deactivation.
    Pass through the liver and do it no harm...

    Quote Originally Posted by ktatro1 View Post
    This is also inaccurate. Many side effects are dosage dependant as well as how long the steroid is in use for. For the sake of keeping things short though, Anavar is considered one of (if not) the safest steroid(s) to use, even though it is oral and methylated. I do agree that most orals have the capability of being more dangerous, however this is not always the case. There are usually always exceptions

    Sorry for picking apart your post Travis, I just feel your information (or wording) was not as accurate as should be when discussing such matters.
    How much have you read about var? Keep reading. Var will **** up your lipid profile. It'll take a while but it will happen, it's been successfully employed for up to 12 weeks (especially at lower doses, like the doses women use). But while I would feel safe using test at a good dose for over 20 weeks, I wouldn't do this with var. It's NOT as safe...

    Quote Originally Posted by ktatro1 View Post
    Really, again, not to be a d*ck....AAS were developed in the 30s, not the 60s. I feel bad for continuously ripping apart your posts but the accuracy......
    1930's... No i don't think so. Read Anabolics 2006 or 200x any of them, you will see that the development dates are indeed around the 60's... Not the 30s... where the hell are you getting this info. I'm not saying all were invented in the 60's but the 60's were really the beginning of some of the AAS used today. In the 30's nothing was around except testosterone and only Hitler was getting shots

    Deca - 1962

    Dbol - 1960

    DMT (Phera) - 1961

    Mestanolone - 1960s

    M1T - 1950's

    i can just keep going through anabolics and finding the #s...
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    I should be more clear.....Test was first synthesized in the 30s, thats what I was referring to. Dbol was developed and approved by the FDA in 1958, and began wide use in 1960. Test was being used anabolically before that though, by the soviets. The earliest date I could find was '54. I will agree that use became much more prevelant in the 60s in response to Soviet success in weightlifting, but I was referring to the discovery of hormonal impact on muscle and verilization, which was in the 30s.

    Unreal.... almost every steroid will **** up your lipid profile, however this is usually, again as I said before, dose and length (of time taken) dependant. It also depends on the person taking and their predisposition. However, for the sake of clearing the argument, I meant to say that Anavar was the safest of the orals and safer then a lot of injectables.

    Sorry if there was any confusion, however that was what i MEANT to say. I was responding to what I interpreted in his post, and should have been more clear in mine.
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    And as far as the liver issue, I never said it would do it harm, I was merely responding to the fact that he siad they bypass the liver and left it at that. They DON'T bypass the liver. thats all I was trying to say.
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    Yeah it's all good. Yes injectables will mess with lipids but not nearly as bad as orals. For instance you can be on 250mg ew of test for years, i wouldn't do any oral at 1/2 dose for years.

    Var can be pretty bad on lipids, i've seen nasty bloodwork, much worse than just about any injectable. But yes you are right generally it is pretty safe like i said, it has been used for up to 12 weeks with success.
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    Talking about safety, I can still openly keep a cabinet full of Epistane that I ordered off the internet. Even give it to friends. But if you get caught with any of the banned gear, you will be facing a host of criminal charges that nobody wants to deal with. When I think of safety, I'm still considering the concept of legal safety to exceed that of a temporary aberration in my lipid profile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpk View Post
    Talking about safety, I can still openly keep a cabinet full of Epistane that I ordered off the internet. Even give it to friends. But if you get caught with any of the banned gear, you will be facing a host of criminal charges that nobody wants to deal with. When I think of safety, I'm still considering the concept of legal safety to exceed that of a temporary aberration in my lipid profile.
    good point my friend, I have a friend whos ordered from overseas, half the time he gets ripped off, sometimes the gear is fake...and about 1 in 8 he gets legit stuff.

    I dont really like those odds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by searl12 View Post
    dont apologize, Im sure hes kool and will handle the constructive criticism.

    any thoughts on why the other dude says Tren extreme and Bold arent prohormones? and how he could guarantee that? i mean when I was 18 I guaranteed I would make it to the major leagues.....

    still waiting for that contract offer...
    okay, just to be sure, I went back and looked at all of my post, not just this thread, but others, and I've never guranteed anything, are you retarded? seriously? what are you talking about? you seem to be able to read, maybe it isn't well? I explained why I place all of them into catagories, to distinguish between then, and if you've never heard the term pro steroid, you haven't read much. pro steroid, pro hormone, ds, aas they are all steroids. my point was supp companies use the term pro hormone to make it sound safer, and skeet away from fda eye. all anabolics sold over the counter are labeld as a pro hormone. but anyone who has used illegal steroids, and then uses a compound like superdrol, or pheraplex, even dienelone precursor will tell you these are steroids, not safe, do whatever supplements, and all precaution should be used when taking supplements like these.

    People like who believe what they are taking is a safe supplement are misled, and uninformed, this is why they sue companies for getting gyno, or other androgen related side effects. and things get banned like tren, ect.

    my message to the op was short, because I feel it is a persons job to research, and study on what they plan on taking, before they take it, I didn't want to write up a long ass page explaining all about the possible side effects of androgens, how to safely use them, for sake of fda watch dogs, I was trying to refrain from calling the sups what they are, anabolic steroids, therefore adding fuel to the fire to have them banned.

    yes, there are thousands of side effects possible from any anabolic steroid. the only main difference I know of (i may be wrong) from orals, vs injections, is the liver hepatotoxicity from 17aa metheylated steroids, but after that, the sides and risk will be there. each steroid is different, some have more sides, some have less,

    this is why you find the steroid, or compound you want to use, and research it, everything on it.

    the new designer steroids on the market, I dont know if they are safer, or not, I haven't seen the research that says they are, or aren't,

    but what I can tell you is androgens (test, and it's analogs) all have similar side effects, (blood lipid values, gyno, baldness, test shrinkage, etc) and each steroid with have an increased or decreased risk of androgenic side effects.

    btw,
    In studies done on male athletes that were given 10 mg OT/day over six weeks, no negative health effects or side effects were reported. It was also used in low doses to reduce the binding of SHBG to other steroids.(1) Oral Turinabol was found to have the ability to reduce SHBG and allow testosterone to be more readily used.

    There was one case reported where a male experienced negative side effects from 5 years of using Oral Turinabol at a high dosage (2)(3). It was found to be effective at extremely high dosages by those looking to gain strength and mass, yet athletes looking to obtain gains more quickly and more proficiently in their game were very successful with lower doses of Oral Turinabol. Olympic level male Shot-putters were able to add 2.5-4m to their shot throws, 10-12m on their Discus throw, and 6-10m to their Hammer throws with in four years of training. Female athletes gained even more. One female athlete improved her throw from under 18m to over 20m (4).

    steroids can be used safely, or not safe.
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    this is as close to a guarantee as I have ever seen


    "Im right, and know im right, yes im bold enough to say that. if you would like me to lead you to the info, let me know, i'll be glad to explain anything to you, and show you where to read the info from the experts."

    yet it seems to me as if your wrong on quite a few things, and due of course ive heard the term pro steroid, but not every oral is a prosteroid.

    bold is a prohormone
    Extreme tren is a Prohormone.
    ergopharm 1Ad is a prohormone
    and you can still find a clone of this in England.

    its not so much that your always wrong its the way your wording your posts that is irking me.
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    "the only pro hormone you can still legally buy is dhea. this is the only supplement that converts into a hormone. either estrogen, or test."

    You are right and you know your right?

    would you wager your life that this is a correct statement?

    I think you sound very knowledgeable, and im sure your a kool guy, its just that you seem to think its your way or the highway because you did some research, i mean ive read a ton of research on the internet that turned out to be close but ended up being wrong.

    just because the internet says so...doesnt make it so.
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    Duplicate post
    Last edited by jpk; 07-22-2009 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Duplicate post
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    Quote Originally Posted by searl12 View Post
    this is as close to a guarantee as I have ever seen


    "Im right, and know im right, yes im bold enough to say that. if you would like me to lead you to the info, let me know, i'll be glad to explain anything to you, and show you where to read the info from the experts."

    ^--im referring to the side effects of anabolic steroids illegal, vs the available pro hormones on the market i.e. new designer steroids.A synthetic steroid derived by simple chemical modification from another steroid, usually an anabolic steroid.

    yet it seems to me as if your wrong on quite a few things, and due of course ive heard the term pro steroid, but not every oral is a prosteroid.

    bold is a prohormone
    Extreme tren is a Prohormone.
    ergopharm 1Ad is a prohormone
    and you can still find a clone of this in England.

    and I use this term "pre steroid" to differentiate between older now banned pro hormones (before bold, or dienelone) came out, 4-andro's which converted into testosterone, which is a natural hormone (which is a steroid, but natural) the body produces it.
    and I refer to bold as a pro steroid because it converts into a un natural synthetic steroid hormone that the body does not produce, boldenone.

    when I came on the anabolic/pro hormone scene, this is how people I learned from differentiated between the them, as to educate, and clear up the misleading that supplement companies place un unsuspecting consumers. yes they are all steroids, but to someone new in the market, they may think they are taking a compound that converts into a natural hormone the body already produces, just making them have more. when in fact they are taking a sup that converts into a un natrual hormone in the body, and may have adverse side effects. and I can still find 4-androstenediol and 1-andro originals sold here in the us.


    its not so much that your always wrong its the way your wording your posts that is irking me.
    im sorry if my wording irks you, I try to cut out alot and keep things short in my responses, otherwise i'll write a whole page on explaining the ops question when it can be avoided easily by keeping it short, (it may not make sense) and leading him to the search bar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    im sorry if my wording irks you, I try to cut out alot and keep things short in my responses, otherwise i'll write a whole page on explaining the ops question when it can be avoided easily by keeping it short, (it may not make sense) and leading him to the search bar.
    fair enough brother,like I said yor imout is very valuable, and I am enjoying learning and debating this with you.hck thats kind of what this forum is for....none of us are experts and this is how we learn,

    its funny in the DS/PH game one could almost be right and wrong at the same time...as their is so little accurate info on all this stuff.

    cheers
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    we can argue about the safety of anabolic forever, its been going on already for years and years now, this thread is getting pointless.

    anabolid steroid can have serious health issues, they can also pose little to none.
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    agreed, research, ancillary supps, and pre and post blood work are extremely important.
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