pct and androgel

[orvise]

pct and androgel after m1t

I am finishing a cycle ofm1t and 4ad sunday
doing nolva for pct
can i take my androgel along with the nolva?

 

[goldylight]

I am finishing a cycle ofm1t and 4ad sunday
doing nolva for pct
can i take my androgel along with the nolva?

Not if you want to recover......

 

[WATERLOGGED]

when i was about finished with m1t/4ad/m1,4add my test was so lon that my doc wants to test again in 1 month ,if its still low she wants to give me androgel. does androgel even fit into the cycle and pct? does it have any value if you are constantly raiseing and lowering you free test?

 

[orvise]

so take it after i get off nolva?

 

[RRAdam]

androgel is transdermal test, not a prohormone. I think its only meant to supplement people who naturally have low test levels. if you have normal test levels, i think it will just shut you down, while giving you a lower dose of test than your body naturally produces... I'm not sure - so i'll probably need bobo or someone to back me up.

 

[orvise]

im taking it because i have low natural test
so im wondering if i should stay off it until after pct
peace

 

[Jcc]

Hang on... you are on HRT? You DO know that the whole idea of pct is to recover natural test levels, correct?

 

[BrKonman]

Hang on... you are on HRT? You DO know that the whole idea of pct is to recover natural test levels, correct?

Exact-a-mundo.... can't recover to what ya don't have, right? Most people on HRT just do periodic cycles and after cycle return to their standard HRT. Depends on the circumstances, but I know quite a few guys on HRT that follow DC's cruising theory and do a 4 - 6 week cycle, then cruise on their HRT, and lather rinse repeat.

 

[orvise]

are you saying i dont need the nolva go straight to androgel?

 

[BrKonman]

are you saying i dont need the nolva go straight to androgel?

There's several schools of thoughts on this, and you really have to decide for yourself, based on your current situation and future goals. I know of several docs who prescribe HRT and suggest getting off of it every X number of months and attempting recovery, so that there is still the possibilty of eventually not using HRT should you decide on that route later down the road, but after you've been on for several years it becomes a very long and laborious process to recover. For people who are planning on this, the option during cruising would be to use nolva/hcg/hrt replacement to restore size to the boys and keep them sensitive to some degree(no matter how minute it might be.)

Should you go with the other school of thought, having decided you have no real interest in ever stopping HRT then by all means, blast away for your 4 - 6 week cycle, and then drop to HRT levels occasionally using HCG to restore size to the boys.

And then there is vets on other boards who say do PCT for 1 - 2 weeks and then return to your androgel. I personally don't agree with this option as that hardly seems any more beneficial (a 1 week PCT?) than just starting up the HRT right after stopping the cycle and doing things to remind the boys they still have a purpose, while maintaining enough T in the body to hopefully not lose everything after your cycle.

.... I'd love to hear the mod's thoughts on all these options, and get their opinions. Bobo? Size? Everyone else?

 

[BrKonman]

when i was about finished with m1t/4ad/m1,4add my test was so lon that my doc wants to test again in 1 month ,if its still low she wants to give me androgel. does androgel even fit into the cycle and pct? does it have any value if you are constantly raiseing and lowering you free test?

The only reason the doc would be giving you androgel is if she was unaware that you were running PH's and are in the process of recovery. In that situation, she's comming to the conclusion that you are in need of HRT. Androgel by itself does not have a place in a cycle, unless you are actually in need of HRT and then its just a free Rx for test to use when staying on year round My suggestion, get her to Rx some test cyp. But assuming you are an average male, with normal range test for your baseline, then no, androgel has no place in your cycle or PCT.

 

[orvise]

my test level was 230 before androgel it is 830
question is do i go straight to nolva or back to androgel after the cycle

 

[BrKonman]

This is IMHO of course but...
Depends on goals. If ya think you'll just go with HRT indefinitely, I'd just hop right back on androgel and run another cycle in a couple weeks. If ya think you might stop, run the nolva side-by-side with starting your androgel, and either way plan on getting HCG for later on.

 

[orvise]

i think i wll stay on hrt forever,who wants low test levels
ill just keep the nolva for later,think 2 weeks is enough of a break?

 

[BrKonman]

2 Weeks should be plenty, so long as you're ready to hit it hard again. G'luck with your decision!

 

[orvise]

why the hcg

 

[WATERLOGGED]

thankz konman , i didnt know if i could use androgel to enhance my cycle on or bringing tesst up to par faster after cycle , to be sure and keep gains better.

 

[JerseyDevil]

Isn't one of the reasons for PCT to help bring down estrogen levels? After a healthy dose of androgens, estrogen levels are going to be much higher then during typical HRT therapy using Androgel. As a point of reference, a 5g packet of Androgel daily is roughly equivalent to only 35 mg of test a week.

Personally I think it would be a mistake not to run Nolva for at least two weeks after a M1T/4AD cycle. I really would like to see Bobo or Chemo weigh in on this.

 

[orvise]

i will wait for some more info before i decide

 

[orvise]

bobo chemo

 

[WATERLOGGED]

i dont know , but i would think that since with your natural test is low after cycle and estrogen high, that nolva for 2-3+ weeks to block the estrogin while bringing back higher levels of nat. test , that the use of a helper would work to make the levels higher quicker. but its just a thought , some vets need to help on this issue since there are a few guys that do in fact need hrt.

 

[orvise]

yea i wish some vets would help us out bro

 

[BrKonman]

i dont know , but i would think that since with your natural test is low after cycle and estrogen high, that nolva for 2-3+ weeks to block the estrogin while bringing back higher levels of nat. test , that the use of a helper would work to make the levels higher quicker. but its just a thought , some vets need to help on this issue since there are a few guys that do in fact need hrt.

Good thought, but doesn't hold up unfortunately. If he's on HRT, nolva will not be bringing him back up to any decent amount of test. Basically he'll just crash. Returning to the HRT(very fast acting androgel in this case) would be equivalent to a person doing an ideal PCT that recovered natty test in a matter of days. The estrogen issue is something I'd like Bobo or someone to speak on, but as far as it preventing his natty test from recovering, it is irrelavant if he returns to HRT, as there is no nat recovery then. Like I said earlier, if the plan was to come off HRT eventually, then making sure to keep the boys functioning once in awhile is the way to go, but if he's staying on as he has said, then there's simply no point that I can see.

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

why the hcg

Thats funny.

You had no business getting the androgel. Your test was low because of the hormones you are taking. 4ad does not give you high bloodlevels of test and your bloodlevels prove that you are SUPPRESSED.

You really need to do some PCT and get off the androgens till you do some research.

 

[BrKonman]

Thats funny.

You had no business getting the androgel. Your test was low because of the hormones you are taking. 4ad does not give you high bloodlevels of test and yuor bloodlevels prove you are SUPPRESSED.

You really need to do some PCT and get off the androgens till you do some research.

Heh, I think you got confused between orvise's posts and WATERLOGGED's posts. WATERLOGGED's doc said in a month if levels were screwy she'd offer androgel, but he never said he'd take it

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

Heh, I think you got confused between orvise's posts and WATERLOGGED's posts. WATERLOGGED's doc said in a month if levels were screwy she'd offer androgel, but he never said he'd take it

I think your right, i killed two biceps with one curl!

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

The doctors monitor the bloodlevels. Do you think they would give high doses raising test above normal levels. Ofcourse not. They raise it to a safe and functional level.

Suppression occurs when you are trying to pack on mass , not live a normal life.

If he continues androgel during PCT he will slow his natural recovery.

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

my test level was 230 before androgel it is 830
question is do i go straight to nolva or back to androgel after the cycle

830 will not cause suppression. But it will hinder recovery. Take nolva ONLY for 3 weeks 40/20/10, get tested again and resume HRT.

Do some research and ask your doctor.

 

[EPe9686518]

I too take Androgel for natually low test levels and I was acutlaly about to make a post on this my self, as I have a lot of questions about this product. I really hope Bobo or Chemo see this thread and post, as I really would like some good info from them as they know a lot about this type of stuff.


I had really really really low test levels, so low in fact I couldent gain any muscle. I started on 2 grams a day, and then 5 grams a day. They started bringing my test levels back up but still I was far from where they should be. I have been on 10 grams a day now for a few months and just got some blood work done this week, i should know by monday what my levels are up to now.

Baiscly, my questions are. What is adrogel basicly? Is it like 1 test or something like that? Since I been on 10 grames a day I have noticed a really big diffrence in how I feel and everything. I started putting on a ton of mass now too. So I been quite happy with it. Hopefully some one can provide some info to what exactly is in Androgel and how it works and what I should do if I plan on going on a one M1t cyle at some point.

Also, is Androgel good to use as a supplment? At 10 grams a day I been having great results with it, and is there any ways I could possably take in more of this? Being a transdremal there is a lot more in this stuff then your body is actually able to take in, so I was woundering is there anything I could combind with this to maybe take in even more out of my dosses every day? Any help or advice on any of these questions would be very much apericeated. Thanks.


Edit* after reading some other post on this, I was woundering if anyone that uses this stuff has been able to get the abbsorbstion rate up by using some DMSO. According to the pack, theres *I belive* 100 mb of test in each one, but it has only a 10% absorbstion rate. <--- really wants to boost that number up as my Doc is cool with me and continue to supply me with this stuff.

 

[BrKonman]

I too take Androgel for natually low test levels and I was acutlaly about to make a post on this my self, as I have a lot of questions about this product. I really hope Bobo or Chemo see this thread and post, as I really would like some good info from them as they know a lot about this type of stuff.

......

Baiscly, my questions are. What is adrogel basicly? Is it like 1 test or something like that? Since I been on 10 grames a day I have noticed a really big diffrence in how I feel and everything. I started putting on a ton of mass now too. So I been quite happy with it. Hopefully some one can provide some info to what exactly is in Androgel and how it works and what I should do if I plan on going on a one M1t cyle at some point.

Androgel is a transdermal testosterone(1%) carrier. It is *not* 1-test, or anything else. It is simply Test Base in a sustained release transdermal. How does it work? Same way as test, because it is test I'd definitely like to see Bobo/Chemo/et al's opinions on cycling while on HRT, but as stated above, that will be dependant on how your HRT schedule is currently set-up, and your future plans with HRT.

Also, is Androgel good to use as a supplment?

Androgel is testosterone, but provides low-dose, sustained release. It is not a supplement, nor is it equivalent to taking Test-Cyp injections either. (Swale at CEM speculates though that due to increased DHT action, 35mg a week of test from androgel is ~= 100mg of TC) It has a great impact on low-T men, getting them up to the mid-high range. However, for natural, normal range guys it will not be bringing you up to supraphysiological levels.

Edit* after reading some other post on this, I was woundering if anyone that uses this stuff has been able to get the abbsorbstion rate up by using some DMSO. According to the pack, theres *I belive* 100 mb of test in each one, but it has only a 10% absorbstion rate. <--- really wants to boost that number up as my Doc is cool with me and continue to supply me with this stuff.

I doubt there's much to be added to it, but Chemo might have a suggestion. Since this thread has really had a long bout of questions, I'm hoping Chemo and the rest can come in with some-semi definitive answers and correct any mistakes I've made.

 

[BrKonman]

830 will not cause suppression. But it will hinder recovery. Take nolva ONLY for 3 weeks 40/20/10, get tested again and resume HRT.

Do some research and ask your doctor.

You lost me Yimen, what do ya mean 830 will not cause suppression? Orvise was stating that pre-HRT he had T levels of 230. After being on HRT his levels rose to 830. Basically he said his HRT therapy was working, and he went from very low range (Average T for 20-30 is 280-1205, 30-40 is 350-1010, 40-50 is 255-1025) to middle-upper range. The exact affect expected from a correct dosing of androgel.

 

[EPe9686518]

Androgel is a transdermal testosterone(1%) carrier. It is *not* 1-test, or anything else. It is simply Test Base in a sustained release transdermal. How does it work? Same way as test, because it is test I'd definitely like to see Bobo/Chemo/et al's opinions on cycling while on HRT, but as stated above, that will be dependant on how your HRT schedule is currently set-up, and your future plans with HRT.



Androgel is testosterone, but provides low-dose, sustained release. It is not a supplement, nor is it equivalent to taking Test-Cyp injections either. (Swale at CEM speculates though that due to increased DHT action, 35mg a week of test from androgel is ~= 100mg of TC) It has a great impact on low-T men, getting them up to the mid-high range. However, for natural, normal range guys it will not be bringing you up to supraphysiological levels.



I doubt there's much to be added to it, but Chemo might have a suggestion. Since this thread has really had a long bout of questions, I'm hoping Chemo and the rest can come in with some-semi definitive answers and correct any mistakes I've made.

Please forgive me if I sound ignorant, as I do not exactly know all that much about this stuff. BUt if it is test, and there is a very large amount in these packets, but so little gets absorbed. It seems to me, if more of the test is able to be absorbed from these packets, then this could be a pretty effective test based supplment. It's already made my levels rise quite a bit, shouldent they rise past the normal ranges at some point if the absorbtion rate was higher then the current 10%? Chemo has said in the past that adding DSMO would take it to around 30%, that alone should make a big impact. If I could get it even higher then that shouldent I be able to rase my test levels past the normal ranges at some point? And at the very lest get them in the top normal ranges? I know this will never be as strong or as anabolic as M1T or other PH's, but it seems like it will be a quite effective thing to use to gain muscle from if I can get the absorbe rates uo a bit more.

I too am looking forward to hopefully getting some much needed insite from Chemo soon on this.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

If any of you want the best opinion available on this stuff go here and ask for SWALE. This is what he does for a living and could give you the opinion you need based on clinical results. I could comment on a million things but its pointless when the source if freely availalbe and frankly I'm not qualified to do so. HRT/TRT should be discussed with a doctor as it a medical condition and normal drugs and/or practices might not work on you as they would in normal men.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Dwight Schrute]

You lost me Yimen, what do ya mean 830 will not cause suppression? Orvise was stating that pre-HRT he had T levels of 230. After being on HRT his levels rose to 830. Basically he said his HRT therapy was working, and he went from very low range (Average T for 20-30 is 280-1205, 30-40 is 350-1010, 40-50 is 255-1025) to middle-upper range. The exact affect expected from a correct dosing of androgel.

Bascially the answer to the whole problem is that since he is on HRT he will be suppressed adn there never is a need for PCT. Adding additional amounts will only cause continued atrphy which can be minimized or eliminated with HCG. Eventually the levels will drop back down to the ranges his HRT provide and that will be that. Nolva and Clomid would only provide ant-e effects, thats all.

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

If his level is 830 (normal) range during HRT. Then he would not produce negative feedback and therefore his testes should function correctly.

Now if he is shutdown from PH's, then exogenous androgel will continue suppression.

Androgel works in conjuction with his natural test levels to produce a normal functional range. Not shut him down.
He needs a normal functioning set of balls for HRT to work at the low doses.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Wrong. All HRT/TRT suppresses you. As low as 20mg/week bottoms LH levels out.

 

[JerseyDevil]

During normal HRT supraphysiological levels of testosterone will not be achieved, so suppression will not occur. For this reason, cycling or the use of anti-estrogens or blockers is not needed.

However during a prohormone cycle, your own natural production becomes suppressed. I too take Androgel for low test. My natural test runs around 265 ng. Well 265 ng isn't the close to zero levels witnessed by M1T after only a few days. Your body will attempt to adjust your endocrine system by stabilizing the other hormones, which results in an increase in estrogen. Once the cycle is over, and the external hormone supply ceases, natural testosterone will be very low to non-existant and estrogen will be high. Nolvadex is used to help reduce the levels of estrogen.

I emailed a doctor I know personally regarding this issue. She works with many athletes, many of whom use androgens. Her advice was to most definitely use Nolvadex post cycle to aid in reducing estrogen levels, and restoring my natural test levels, however low, back to normal. Take that for what it's worth. I for one, will be listening to the doc.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

During normal HRT supraphysiological levels of testosterone will not be achieved, so suppression will not occur. .

Wrong. GnRH and LH levels bottom out.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

From SWALE:

"Well, complete suppression is complete suppression. I regularly see this at dosages of just 100mg per week. At whatever weekly dose that happens, beyond that, the LH production is flatlined at <0.1. We do know (experientially), though, that testicular atrophy becomes more and more evident as time goes on, and it seems to me this may have something to do with--in fact, may be the most important part of--recovery. The HP begins to produce LH rather quickly (as serum androgen concentration drops below whatever threshold each man possesses). I believe recovery is moreso a matter of getting the testes to respond to LH stimulation."


Studies?

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men

1 Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles 90059; 2 Laboratory for Exercise Sciences, El Camino College, and 3 Harbor-University of California Los Angeles Medical Center, Torrance, California 90502; and 4 Biomedical Mass Spectrometric Research Resource, Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University, School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110


"Hormone levels. Serum total and free testosterone levels (Table 2), measured during week 16, 1 wk after the previous injection, were linearly dependent on the testosterone dose (P = 0.0001). Serum total and free testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased at 300- and 600-mg doses. Serum LH levels were suppressed in all groups"

 

[JerseyDevil]

Point well taken. Well I'm confused. So then it seems like it would make sense to cycle HRT...

 

[Dwight Schrute]

HRT is usually for the rest of your life. Being suppressed isn't that unhealthy. There have been men that have been suppressed for over 30 years but are still very healthy. Its being suppressed and using high amounts which will cause problems. As long as ranges are kept normal it has many benefits. HCG can take care of the eventual atrophy that occurs in relativley low doses (250iu) Nolva/CLomid/Letro are used for anti-e effects and to control estrogen levels if need be. Some need it some dont. Its really not an exact science and one reason SWALEW like Androgel and Cyp because he can monitor levels and titrate when needed.

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

Bobo,
In light of that study.
The original thread starter is trying to keep his gains by using androgel during pct.
Androgel is meant to help you function normally or more normal than your used to. Not help you bodybuild and sundry your raisins.
Do you think the thread starter should do a real PCT and then resume trying to be "normal".
Or should he keep suppressing like there is no tomorrow?

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

Never mind, i posted that after you posted the "who cares if you are suppressed it is not unhealthy remark" , Peace out, Like i care anyway.

 

[JerseyDevil]

So it isn't recommended to do prohormone or AAS cycles at all if your natural test is low? Or you meant it wouldn't be healthy to run cycles for a long period of time. I could see some people thinking "well since I'm suppressed anyway, I'll just stay 'on' year round."

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

If it is cool to be suppressed, hell, lets just have PCT when we die!

We can just use hcg for the rest of our life :rolleyes

This guy is a normal dude, not ronnie coleman.

 

[orvise]

Thats funny.

You had no business getting the androgel. Your test was low because of the hormones you are taking. 4ad does not give you high bloodlevels of test and your bloodlevels prove that you are SUPPRESSED.

You really need to do some PCT and get off the androgens till you do some research.

my test was low way before i started takin androgens

 

[BrKonman]

So it isn't recommended to do prohormone or AAS cycles at all if your natural test is low? Or you meant it wouldn't be healthy to run cycles for a long period of time. I could see some people thinking "well since I'm suppressed anyway, I'll just stay 'on' year round."

It isn't recommended to run prolonged cycles of androgens, period. Low test or not, but that doesn't mean people wont do it. The difference is on HRT you are *always* suppressed, so running a heavy and long cycle, then returning to a low dose, you're still suppressed, and that's even worse than running a heavy, long cycle and PCT'ing for extended periods of time.

Point well taken. Well I'm confused. So then it seems like it would make sense to cycle HRT...

BTW, one of the options I stated earlier in this thread was that several HRT docs I know do infact cycle HRT if the intention is to come off of it at some point. The difference here is that orvise has specifically stated he will not be coming off.

 

[BrKonman]

If it is cool to be suppressed, hell, lets just have PCT when we die!

For someone on never-ending HRT, there is no PCT. Period.

We can just use hcg for the rest of our life :rolleyes

So long as he continues his HRT he will always be suppressed, and therefore yes may very well use HCG indefinitely to stay off the testicular atrophy.

This guy is a normal dude, not ronnie coleman.

A normal dude on HRT. HRT means he will forever be suppressed, which is not a bad thing so long as it is handled correctly.


You have completely missed the point of the thread. I think somewhere along the line you confused the two posters again. To clarify, this threads topic was about returning to HRT directly after a cycle.(Not using it to maintain gains PCT as you incorrectly stated above.) The man in question(orvise) was on HRT(therefore suppressed) before his cycle. After his cycle, (still suppressed) he wanted to know if it was necessary to return to his naturally low baseline(long PCT because it would have to bring back natty test levels from his HRT as well as his cycle) before going back on HRT. As I stated and Bobo clearly demonstrated with his studies, he can and should return to his HRT because he has no intention of stopping HRT, ever. In that case, there is no reason to PCT, as there will never be a point in his life where he intends to return to his natural functioning T levels. Hope that cleared things up for people trying to follow this mess of a thread.

Oh, and thanks a mil for posting the studies Bobo. Glad ya didn't prove everything I said wrong.

 

[orvise]

thanks alot for the help bro
i didnt want to go to pct and loose all my gains because all it would do is bring me back up to my naturally low level.
do you think that was a valid concern

 

[Yimen E.Cricket]

Actually, HRT does not suppress nearly as fast as PHs. He could sustain the androgel for a while without severe suppression. swale claims It does cause lh decrease by 55-60%. But now this dude is shutdown hard from m1t. He needs to come back to life and then continue his androgel to make him normal, he can forget about his minimal gains and concentrate on a normal life. His endocrine system is fucked up but androgel does not replace the bodies natural functions, it merely supplements them.

Ask swale, I lost the link but i will find it. Androgel is not nearly as swift to suppress. Swale said suppression comes in stages and some compounds cause suppression more than others. like m1t for instance (see supersoldiers lab results). If suppression comes slowly on androgel, then he is still functioning atlease slightly normal for much longer than he will on m1t. Therfore he now needs more androgel to get the same effect as he would if he was normal functioning. His doctor can tell you all of this.

Go get tested and let us know how it goes.


AND ASK SWALE