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    HRT is usually for the rest of your life. Being suppressed isn't that unhealthy. There have been men that have been suppressed for over 30 years but are still very healthy. Its being suppressed and using high amounts which will cause problems. As long as ranges are kept normal it has many benefits. HCG can take care of the eventual atrophy that occurs in relativley low doses (250iu) Nolva/CLomid/Letro are used for anti-e effects and to control estrogen levels if need be. Some need it some dont. Its really not an exact science and one reason SWALEW like Androgel and Cyp because he can monitor levels and titrate when needed.
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    Bobo,
    In light of that study.
    The original thread starter is trying to keep his gains by using androgel during pct.
    Androgel is meant to help you function normally or more normal than your used to. Not help you bodybuild and sundry your raisins.
    Do you think the thread starter should do a real PCT and then resume trying to be "normal".
    Or should he keep suppressing like there is no tomorrow?
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    Never mind, i posted that after you posted the "who cares if you are suppressed it is not unhealthy remark" , Peace out, Like i care anyway.
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    So it isn't recommended to do prohormone or AAS cycles at all if your natural test is low? Or you meant it wouldn't be healthy to run cycles for a long period of time. I could see some people thinking "well since I'm suppressed anyway, I'll just stay 'on' year round."
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    If it is cool to be suppressed, hell, lets just have PCT when we die!

    We can just use hcg for the rest of our life :rolleyes

    This guy is a normal dude, not ronnie coleman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Thats funny.

    You had no business getting the androgel. Your test was low because of the hormones you are taking. 4ad does not give you high bloodlevels of test and your bloodlevels prove that you are SUPPRESSED.

    You really need to do some PCT and get off the androgens till you do some research.
    my test was low way before i started takin androgens
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyDevil
    So it isn't recommended to do prohormone or AAS cycles at all if your natural test is low? Or you meant it wouldn't be healthy to run cycles for a long period of time. I could see some people thinking "well since I'm suppressed anyway, I'll just stay 'on' year round."
    It isn't recommended to run prolonged cycles of androgens, period. Low test or not, but that doesn't mean people wont do it. The difference is on HRT you are *always* suppressed, so running a heavy and long cycle, then returning to a low dose, you're still suppressed, and that's even worse than running a heavy, long cycle and PCT'ing for extended periods of time.

    Point well taken. Well I'm confused. So then it seems like it would make sense to cycle HRT...
    BTW, one of the options I stated earlier in this thread was that several HRT docs I know do infact cycle HRT if the intention is to come off of it at some point. The difference here is that orvise has specifically stated he will not be coming off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    If it is cool to be suppressed, hell, lets just have PCT when we die!
    For someone on never-ending HRT, there is no PCT. Period.

    We can just use hcg for the rest of our life :rolleyes
    So long as he continues his HRT he will always be suppressed, and therefore yes may very well use HCG indefinitely to stay off the testicular atrophy.

    This guy is a normal dude, not ronnie coleman.
    A normal dude on HRT. HRT means he will forever be suppressed, which is not a bad thing so long as it is handled correctly.


    You have completely missed the point of the thread. I think somewhere along the line you confused the two posters again. To clarify, this threads topic was about returning to HRT directly after a cycle.(Not using it to maintain gains PCT as you incorrectly stated above.) The man in question(orvise) was on HRT(therefore suppressed) before his cycle. After his cycle, (still suppressed) he wanted to know if it was necessary to return to his naturally low baseline(long PCT because it would have to bring back natty test levels from his HRT as well as his cycle) before going back on HRT. As I stated and Bobo clearly demonstrated with his studies, he can and should return to his HRT because he has no intention of stopping HRT, ever. In that case, there is no reason to PCT, as there will never be a point in his life where he intends to return to his natural functioning T levels. Hope that cleared things up for people trying to follow this mess of a thread.

    Oh, and thanks a mil for posting the studies Bobo. Glad ya didn't prove everything I said wrong.
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    thanks alot for the help bro
    i didnt want to go to pct and loose all my gains because all it would do is bring me back up to my naturally low level.
    do you think that was a valid concern
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    Actually, HRT does not suppress nearly as fast as PHs. He could sustain the androgel for a while without severe suppression. swale claims It does cause lh decrease by 55-60%. But now this dude is shutdown hard from m1t. He needs to come back to life and then continue his androgel to make him normal, he can forget about his minimal gains and concentrate on a normal life. His endocrine system is ****ed up but androgel does not replace the bodies natural functions, it merely supplements them.

    Ask swale, I lost the link but i will find it. Androgel is not nearly as swift to suppress. Swale said suppression comes in stages and some compounds cause suppression more than others. like m1t for instance (see supersoldiers lab results). If suppression comes slowly on androgel, then he is still functioning atlease slightly normal for much longer than he will on m1t. Therfore he now needs more androgel to get the same effect as he would if he was normal functioning. His doctor can tell you all of this.

    Go get tested and let us know how it goes.


    AND ASK SWALE
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    Androgel is not the fountain of youth, thats like saying i can take 1000mg ED of m1t cause i had subway. If he continues androgel he will continue a hard suppression. He did not even act like he knew what hcg was. He was asking why he would need HCG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Actually, HRT does not suppress nearly as fast as PHs. He could sustain the androgel for a while without severe suppression. swale claims It does cause lh decrease by 55-60%.

    Umm...Check the studies. 25mg/week suppressed within 3 days. In other words if LH levels are bottomed out, ther is NO test production.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Androgel is not the fountain of youth, thats like saying i can take 1000mg ED of m1t cause i had subway. If he continues androgel he will continue a hard suppression. He did not even act like he knew what hcg was. He was asking why he would need HCG.
    What don't you get? He already is in a state of suppression! Thats why he on HRT! If it gets back enough it can effect sperm production in which case HCG can be used. THats why he goes to the doctor and thats why HRT levels are monitored.
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    Well i have said in most of my post to see his doctor. Tell the doc everything, cause the products are legal.

    Come back and let us know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Actually, HRT does not suppress nearly as fast as PHs. He could sustain the androgel for a while without severe suppression.
    Where do you get this from? That is totally false.
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    Then why do we recommend post cycle so much? Why dont we just recommend hcg instead of nolva and stay on the Drugs like this dude is doing?

    We have been doing it wrong all along. I can stay big forever thanks to hcg!
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    Yes you can but for some reason you equate to injecting 750mg/week to 100mg/week. You could easily stay on year round with little to no suppression with HCG. But then you fail to understand that chronic use of HCG desensitizes Leydig cells over time and also the negtaive effect of lipid profiles with high amounts of androgens. HCG becomes ineffective if you use it to much and you need to use more for a steroid like cycle than a HRT cycle, so the megative effect over time are even worse.

    We've recommended HCG DURING a cycles many times to prevent suppression but during a 4-6 week cycle the suppression compared to 12-20 week cycle isn't even close. ALso most of the users in this section are PH users, not steroid users so therefore do not inject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Then why do we recommend post cycle so much? Why dont we just recommend hcg instead of nolva and stay on the Drugs like this dude is doing?
    HCG does not directy cause an increase in test production. It forces Leydig cell to respond to LH (in this case synthetic). This rise in testosterone would also cause a rise in estrogen making it very easy to get gyno post cycle. THis is why NOlva is used along with it. SWALE recomeended to use HCG during your cycle making suppression a moot point so when you do finally come off and use NOlva, the rise in LH will automatically produce a rise in testosterone since the LEydig cells have bee functioning the whole time. THe delay in test production is reduced and recovery happens much quicker.

    You need ot read the profiles more thoroughly and understand what going on.
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    If you read the 2 posts by this same guy, the guy is asking if he should do PCT or if he should continue androgel after his m1t cycle. Manbeast told him to use 4ad along with his androgel during PCT.

    I just dont think the guy knows what he is doing and i am telling him to stop suppressing for a while. Or atleast see his doctor and make future plans for natty restoration.
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    If infact androgel is that supressive than he needs to come back to life at some point or see his doctor. He was suppressed before he even started the cycle so lets just make it worse for him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    If you read the 2 posts by this same guy, the guy is asking if he should do PCT or if he should continue androgel after his m1t cycle. Manbeast told him to use 4ad along with his androgel during PCT.

    I just dont think the guy knows what he is doing and i am telling him to stop suppressing for a while. Or atleast see his doctor and make future plans for natty restoration.
    Dude, you seriously need to stop. He is on HRT BECAUSE HE IS SUPPRESSED FOR LIFE! Its a medical condition!!!!

    He is on HRT because in ther natural state his testes do NOT PRODUCE ENOUGH!

    You do know what HRT is? Hormone REPLACEMENT Therapy!

    Suppressed is suppressed! He will be that way for the rest of his life! WHats the point of stopping Androgel? He will just reutnr to his low state again. He is UNABLE to produce sufficnet amounts! THats why he IS ON HRT!
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    Suppressed does not produce a level of 230. His nuts work a little before androgel.

    They dont work at all while on it. Are you telling him to follow manbeasts advice fromthe other thread?
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    All i said was to see his doctor and then tell us.
    If he is on proper hrt than his doctor should be aware of his exogeneous endeavors.
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    Suppressed does not mean SHUT DOWN! It means your not producing your normal amount. In his case, thats ALL THE TIME!
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    bOBO, WILL YOU GIVE YOUR ADVICE TO THE GUY AND QUIT ARGUING WITH ME?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    All i said was to see his doctor and then tell us.
    If he is on proper hrt than his doctor should be aware of his exogeneous endeavors.
    No, you said a lot more that was totally false and had zero bearing with his case. If you don't understand how this stuff works you have no basis to comment in this thread at all.
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    I will shut up if you make your suggestions.
    I didnt mean to yell, my caps was on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    bOBO, WILL YOU GIVE YOUR ADVICE TO THE GUY AND QUIT ARGUING WITH ME?
    I already did but you keep bringing up false information that just confuses him. If you don't know, don't post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Bascially the answer to the whole problem is that since he is on HRT he will be suppressed adn there never is a need for PCT. Adding additional amounts will only cause continued atrphy which can be minimized or eliminated with HCG. Eventually the levels will drop back down to the ranges his HRT provide and that will be that. Nolva and Clomid would only provide ant-e effects, thats all.
    Read that AGAIN! I made my suggestion a page ago!
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    Orvis,
    So the answer is HCG dude, Do you have any questions?

    Please let us know what you decide to do.
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    HCG is only for people that want to prevent atrophy or have significant atrophy. In his case its proably neither since the cycle was so short so he probably doesn't need it. In the future he might but he doens't need to starting using HCG unless his doctor says he does or he chooses to do long cycles.
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    If he is suppressed before a cycle and still suppressing after a cycle, i would say the time is now to make plans. Cause that is a long cycle.
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    bobo,

    I have learned some stuff today. Thanks for kicking me around!
    But i still ahve a question. Do you get warning signs that you are "on" too long and it is time to take hcg? Is slight shrinkage enough to warrant pct or hcg?

    I am testing an 8 week 4ad cycle and i guess it is part of the reason i am arguing over here. Can a doctor get me hcg if i desperately need it?
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    Only if it medically warrants it. If you go in to a Doctor and he takes blood test while on 4AD, youre test levels will be very very high and your testes will be smaller than usual. In other words, he will know your taking something so therefore he will not give you HCG.

    The warning signs are atrophy. Some people experience this more than others and the only way to know is from your doc or your personal experience. It also depends on the doc. Some like HCG, some don't. If you have a consultation with SWALE and youir experienceing atrophy he will most likely put you on HCG. This only works if you have a medical condition though as he will not prescribe anything wiothouth intial blood work done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Orvis,
    So the answer is HCG dude, Do you have any questions?

    Please let us know what you decide to do.
    why would i need hcg for such a short cycle
    the doc said i shouldnt have any shrinkage while on androgel
    also what do you think about what manbeast said about staying on 4ad
    for a couple weeks
  36. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    If he is suppressed before a cycle and still suppressing after a cycle, i would say the time is now to make plans. Cause that is a long cycle.
    Not necessarily. Some don't experience atrophy at all while other do. YOu will probably experience much more atrophy with high doses than with androgel. Just because your suppressed does not mean your testes will shrink. It will usually take a very long time with those doses. The volume of atrophy doesn't even come from a lack test production (Leydi cells), it comes from lack of sperm production (steroli cells). Steroli cells take up a greater volume of your testes than Leydig cells do. Thats why I continue to tell people you can't make a judement on test production from testes size alone. It doesn't tell the whole picture. You could have normal test production and your teste could be small due to low sperm production.
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    Quote Originally Posted by orvise
    why would i need hcg for such a short cycle
    the doc said i shouldnt have any shrinkage while on androgel
    also what do you think about what manbeast said about staying on 4ad
    for a couple weeks
    You don't need it unless you do have significant atrophy.


    You don't need 4AD. The androgel will be enough. THe difference between you and noraml men is that the PH's will cause the test production to stop and therefore there will be a delay after the cycle until test production returns to normal. With you, androgel is your test production basically so the delay will not occur. You will just return to the levels of test that androgel provides which is the normal range depending on how muchn you use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Not necessarily. Some don't experience atrophy at all while other do. YOu will probably experience much more atrophy with high doses than with androgel. Just because your suppressed does not mean your testes will shrink. It will usually take a very long time with those doses. The volume of atrophy doesn't even come from a lack test production (Leydi cells), it comes from lack of sperm production (steroli cells). Steroli cells take up a greater volume of your testes than Leydig cells do. Thats why I continue to tell people you can't make a judement on test production from testes size alone. It doesn't tell the whole picture. You could have normal test production and your teste could be small due to low sperm production.
    thanks for the feedback bros
    for future cycles,should i stay on the hrt throughout the cycle
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    let me tell you a little about my cycle
    quit taking androgel for the cycle
    m1t 10 mg ed trans 4ad 4 squirts ed for 2 weeks 202 to 211 9% body fat
    no sides except increased libido
    should i stop the 4ad or run it a little longer?
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    Yes. If your prescribed with HRT, then you should continue it until the doctor tells you not to.
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