pct and androgel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    830 will not cause suppression. But it will hinder recovery. Take nolva ONLY for 3 weeks 40/20/10, get tested again and resume HRT.

    Do some research and ask your doctor.
    You lost me Yimen, what do ya mean 830 will not cause suppression? Orvise was stating that pre-HRT he had T levels of 230. After being on HRT his levels rose to 830. Basically he said his HRT therapy was working, and he went from very low range (Average T for 20-30 is 280-1205, 30-40 is 350-1010, 40-50 is 255-1025) to middle-upper range. The exact affect expected from a correct dosing of androgel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrKonman
    Androgel is a transdermal testosterone(1%) carrier. It is *not* 1-test, or anything else. It is simply Test Base in a sustained release transdermal. How does it work? Same way as test, because it is test I'd definitely like to see Bobo/Chemo/et al's opinions on cycling while on HRT, but as stated above, that will be dependant on how your HRT schedule is currently set-up, and your future plans with HRT.



    Androgel is testosterone, but provides low-dose, sustained release. It is not a supplement, nor is it equivalent to taking Test-Cyp injections either. (Swale at CEM speculates though that due to increased DHT action, 35mg a week of test from androgel is ~= 100mg of TC) It has a great impact on low-T men, getting them up to the mid-high range. However, for natural, normal range guys it will not be bringing you up to supraphysiological levels.



    I doubt there's much to be added to it, but Chemo might have a suggestion. Since this thread has really had a long bout of questions, I'm hoping Chemo and the rest can come in with some-semi definitive answers and correct any mistakes I've made.


    Please forgive me if I sound ignorant, as I do not exactly know all that much about this stuff. BUt if it is test, and there is a very large amount in these packets, but so little gets absorbed. It seems to me, if more of the test is able to be absorbed from these packets, then this could be a pretty effective test based supplment. It's already made my levels rise quite a bit, shouldent they rise past the normal ranges at some point if the absorbtion rate was higher then the current 10%? Chemo has said in the past that adding DSMO would take it to around 30%, that alone should make a big impact. If I could get it even higher then that shouldent I be able to rase my test levels past the normal ranges at some point? And at the very lest get them in the top normal ranges? I know this will never be as strong or as anabolic as M1T or other PH's, but it seems like it will be a quite effective thing to use to gain muscle from if I can get the absorbe rates uo a bit more.

    I too am looking forward to hopefully getting some much needed insite from Chemo soon on this.
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    If any of you want the best opinion available on this stuff go here and ask for SWALE. This is what he does for a living and could give you the opinion you need based on clinical results. I could comment on a million things but its pointless when the source if freely availalbe and frankly I'm not qualified to do so. HRT/TRT should be discussed with a doctor as it a medical condition and normal drugs and/or practices might not work on you as they would in normal men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrKonman
    You lost me Yimen, what do ya mean 830 will not cause suppression? Orvise was stating that pre-HRT he had T levels of 230. After being on HRT his levels rose to 830. Basically he said his HRT therapy was working, and he went from very low range (Average T for 20-30 is 280-1205, 30-40 is 350-1010, 40-50 is 255-1025) to middle-upper range. The exact affect expected from a correct dosing of androgel.
    Bascially the answer to the whole problem is that since he is on HRT he will be suppressed adn there never is a need for PCT. Adding additional amounts will only cause continued atrphy which can be minimized or eliminated with HCG. Eventually the levels will drop back down to the ranges his HRT provide and that will be that. Nolva and Clomid would only provide ant-e effects, thats all.
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    If his level is 830 (normal) range during HRT. Then he would not produce negative feedback and therefore his testes should function correctly.

    Now if he is shutdown from PH's, then exogenous androgel will continue suppression.

    Androgel works in conjuction with his natural test levels to produce a normal functional range. Not shut him down.
    He needs a normal functioning set of balls for HRT to work at the low doses.
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    Wrong. All HRT/TRT suppresses you. As low as 20mg/week bottoms LH levels out.
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    During normal HRT supraphysiological levels of testosterone will not be achieved, so suppression will not occur. For this reason, cycling or the use of anti-estrogens or blockers is not needed.

    However during a prohormone cycle, your own natural production becomes suppressed. I too take Androgel for low test. My natural test runs around 265 ng. Well 265 ng isn't the close to zero levels witnessed by M1T after only a few days. Your body will attempt to adjust your endocrine system by stabilizing the other hormones, which results in an increase in estrogen. Once the cycle is over, and the external hormone supply ceases, natural testosterone will be very low to non-existant and estrogen will be high. Nolvadex is used to help reduce the levels of estrogen.

    I emailed a doctor I know personally regarding this issue. She works with many athletes, many of whom use androgens. Her advice was to most definitely use Nolvadex post cycle to aid in reducing estrogen levels, and restoring my natural test levels, however low, back to normal. Take that for what it's worth. I for one, will be listening to the doc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyDevil
    During normal HRT supraphysiological levels of testosterone will not be achieved, so suppression will not occur. .
    Wrong. GnRH and LH levels bottom out.
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    From SWALE:

    "Well, complete suppression is complete suppression. I regularly see this at dosages of just 100mg per week. At whatever weekly dose that happens, beyond that, the LH production is flatlined at <0.1. We do know (experientially), though, that testicular atrophy becomes more and more evident as time goes on, and it seems to me this may have something to do with--in fact, may be the most important part of--recovery. The HP begins to produce LH rather quickly (as serum androgen concentration drops below whatever threshold each man possesses). I believe recovery is moreso a matter of getting the testes to respond to LH stimulation."


    Studies?

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men

    1 Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles 90059; 2 Laboratory for Exercise Sciences, El Camino College, and 3 Harbor-University of California Los Angeles Medical Center, Torrance, California 90502; and 4 Biomedical Mass Spectrometric Research Resource, Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University, School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110


    "Hormone levels. Serum total and free testosterone levels (Table 2), measured during week 16, 1 wk after the previous injection, were linearly dependent on the testosterone dose (P = 0.0001). Serum total and free testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased at 300- and 600-mg doses. Serum LH levels were suppressed in all groups"
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    Point well taken. Well I'm confused. So then it seems like it would make sense to cycle HRT...
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    HRT is usually for the rest of your life. Being suppressed isn't that unhealthy. There have been men that have been suppressed for over 30 years but are still very healthy. Its being suppressed and using high amounts which will cause problems. As long as ranges are kept normal it has many benefits. HCG can take care of the eventual atrophy that occurs in relativley low doses (250iu) Nolva/CLomid/Letro are used for anti-e effects and to control estrogen levels if need be. Some need it some dont. Its really not an exact science and one reason SWALEW like Androgel and Cyp because he can monitor levels and titrate when needed.
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    Bobo,
    In light of that study.
    The original thread starter is trying to keep his gains by using androgel during pct.
    Androgel is meant to help you function normally or more normal than your used to. Not help you bodybuild and sundry your raisins.
    Do you think the thread starter should do a real PCT and then resume trying to be "normal".
    Or should he keep suppressing like there is no tomorrow?
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    Never mind, i posted that after you posted the "who cares if you are suppressed it is not unhealthy remark" , Peace out, Like i care anyway.
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    So it isn't recommended to do prohormone or AAS cycles at all if your natural test is low? Or you meant it wouldn't be healthy to run cycles for a long period of time. I could see some people thinking "well since I'm suppressed anyway, I'll just stay 'on' year round."
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    If it is cool to be suppressed, hell, lets just have PCT when we die!

    We can just use hcg for the rest of our life :rolleyes

    This guy is a normal dude, not ronnie coleman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Thats funny.

    You had no business getting the androgel. Your test was low because of the hormones you are taking. 4ad does not give you high bloodlevels of test and your bloodlevels prove that you are SUPPRESSED.

    You really need to do some PCT and get off the androgens till you do some research.
    my test was low way before i started takin androgens
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyDevil
    So it isn't recommended to do prohormone or AAS cycles at all if your natural test is low? Or you meant it wouldn't be healthy to run cycles for a long period of time. I could see some people thinking "well since I'm suppressed anyway, I'll just stay 'on' year round."
    It isn't recommended to run prolonged cycles of androgens, period. Low test or not, but that doesn't mean people wont do it. The difference is on HRT you are *always* suppressed, so running a heavy and long cycle, then returning to a low dose, you're still suppressed, and that's even worse than running a heavy, long cycle and PCT'ing for extended periods of time.

    Point well taken. Well I'm confused. So then it seems like it would make sense to cycle HRT...
    BTW, one of the options I stated earlier in this thread was that several HRT docs I know do infact cycle HRT if the intention is to come off of it at some point. The difference here is that orvise has specifically stated he will not be coming off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    If it is cool to be suppressed, hell, lets just have PCT when we die!
    For someone on never-ending HRT, there is no PCT. Period.

    We can just use hcg for the rest of our life :rolleyes
    So long as he continues his HRT he will always be suppressed, and therefore yes may very well use HCG indefinitely to stay off the testicular atrophy.

    This guy is a normal dude, not ronnie coleman.
    A normal dude on HRT. HRT means he will forever be suppressed, which is not a bad thing so long as it is handled correctly.


    You have completely missed the point of the thread. I think somewhere along the line you confused the two posters again. To clarify, this threads topic was about returning to HRT directly after a cycle.(Not using it to maintain gains PCT as you incorrectly stated above.) The man in question(orvise) was on HRT(therefore suppressed) before his cycle. After his cycle, (still suppressed) he wanted to know if it was necessary to return to his naturally low baseline(long PCT because it would have to bring back natty test levels from his HRT as well as his cycle) before going back on HRT. As I stated and Bobo clearly demonstrated with his studies, he can and should return to his HRT because he has no intention of stopping HRT, ever. In that case, there is no reason to PCT, as there will never be a point in his life where he intends to return to his natural functioning T levels. Hope that cleared things up for people trying to follow this mess of a thread.

    Oh, and thanks a mil for posting the studies Bobo. Glad ya didn't prove everything I said wrong.
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    thanks alot for the help bro
    i didnt want to go to pct and loose all my gains because all it would do is bring me back up to my naturally low level.
    do you think that was a valid concern
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    Actually, HRT does not suppress nearly as fast as PHs. He could sustain the androgel for a while without severe suppression. swale claims It does cause lh decrease by 55-60%. But now this dude is shutdown hard from m1t. He needs to come back to life and then continue his androgel to make him normal, he can forget about his minimal gains and concentrate on a normal life. His endocrine system is ****ed up but androgel does not replace the bodies natural functions, it merely supplements them.

    Ask swale, I lost the link but i will find it. Androgel is not nearly as swift to suppress. Swale said suppression comes in stages and some compounds cause suppression more than others. like m1t for instance (see supersoldiers lab results). If suppression comes slowly on androgel, then he is still functioning atlease slightly normal for much longer than he will on m1t. Therfore he now needs more androgel to get the same effect as he would if he was normal functioning. His doctor can tell you all of this.

    Go get tested and let us know how it goes.


    AND ASK SWALE
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    Androgel is not the fountain of youth, thats like saying i can take 1000mg ED of m1t cause i had subway. If he continues androgel he will continue a hard suppression. He did not even act like he knew what hcg was. He was asking why he would need HCG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Actually, HRT does not suppress nearly as fast as PHs. He could sustain the androgel for a while without severe suppression. swale claims It does cause lh decrease by 55-60%.

    Umm...Check the studies. 25mg/week suppressed within 3 days. In other words if LH levels are bottomed out, ther is NO test production.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Androgel is not the fountain of youth, thats like saying i can take 1000mg ED of m1t cause i had subway. If he continues androgel he will continue a hard suppression. He did not even act like he knew what hcg was. He was asking why he would need HCG.
    What don't you get? He already is in a state of suppression! Thats why he on HRT! If it gets back enough it can effect sperm production in which case HCG can be used. THats why he goes to the doctor and thats why HRT levels are monitored.
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    Well i have said in most of my post to see his doctor. Tell the doc everything, cause the products are legal.

    Come back and let us know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Actually, HRT does not suppress nearly as fast as PHs. He could sustain the androgel for a while without severe suppression.
    Where do you get this from? That is totally false.
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    Then why do we recommend post cycle so much? Why dont we just recommend hcg instead of nolva and stay on the Drugs like this dude is doing?

    We have been doing it wrong all along. I can stay big forever thanks to hcg!
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    Yes you can but for some reason you equate to injecting 750mg/week to 100mg/week. You could easily stay on year round with little to no suppression with HCG. But then you fail to understand that chronic use of HCG desensitizes Leydig cells over time and also the negtaive effect of lipid profiles with high amounts of androgens. HCG becomes ineffective if you use it to much and you need to use more for a steroid like cycle than a HRT cycle, so the megative effect over time are even worse.

    We've recommended HCG DURING a cycles many times to prevent suppression but during a 4-6 week cycle the suppression compared to 12-20 week cycle isn't even close. ALso most of the users in this section are PH users, not steroid users so therefore do not inject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
    Then why do we recommend post cycle so much? Why dont we just recommend hcg instead of nolva and stay on the Drugs like this dude is doing?
    HCG does not directy cause an increase in test production. It forces Leydig cell to respond to LH (in this case synthetic). This rise in testosterone would also cause a rise in estrogen making it very easy to get gyno post cycle. THis is why NOlva is used along with it. SWALE recomeended to use HCG during your cycle making suppression a moot point so when you do finally come off and use NOlva, the rise in LH will automatically produce a rise in testosterone since the LEydig cells have bee functioning the whole time. THe delay in test production is reduced and recovery happens much quicker.

    You need ot read the profiles more thoroughly and understand what going on.
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    If you read the 2 posts by this same guy, the guy is asking if he should do PCT or if he should continue androgel after his m1t cycle. Manbeast told him to use 4ad along with his androgel during PCT.

    I just dont think the guy knows what he is doing and i am telling him to stop suppressing for a while. Or atleast see his doctor and make future plans for natty restoration.
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    If infact androgel is that supressive than he needs to come back to life at some point or see his doctor. He was suppressed before he even started the cycle so lets just make it worse for him.
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