Need for pct - why not taper anabolics like corticosteroids?

[StuartGould]

Apologies if I am missing something glaringly obvious.

In medical practice if we want to stop oral corticosteroids we gradually reduce the dose over weeks or months. This is known as a steroid taper. Exogenous steroids sipress the adrenal and sudden stoppage may cause disasterous adrenal insufficiency. Slow dose reduction allows natural adrenocorticoid function to recover.

So my question is this:

why not do the same with anabolic agents?

Instead of stopping a cycle suddenly and having to use testosterone stimulators and oestrogen blockers to counter the hormonal imbalance, why not gradually reduce the dose over a period of weeks and months and let the natural sex hormones sort themselves out? That would avoid the need for any pct.

An extension of this would be to use a low dose of an anabolic agent over a longbperiof instead of as a cycle. Of course gains would be slower in the short term but unwanted side effects would be reduced and theoretically a balance could be struck maintaining a reasonable level of native androgens but adding a small excess of exogenous androgens.


If the anabolic agent had no other long term adverse effects on other systems it could effectively be used continuously. A bit like the oral contraceptive.

Now endocrinology was not my strong point so I went into chopping bits out of people instead. So apologies if I am not getting something obvious but there is clearly a wealth of knowledge and experience here so I would like to be educated.

Sorry about long post

 

[caliphotog]

Definetly not a doctor but it seems to me that cycling orals for extended periods of time would damage your liver even more than it is already being damaged. I know non-meth PHs have a less severe effect on liver but I was under the impression that they still do damage.

 

[StuartGould]

Definetly not a doctor but it seems to me that cycling orals for extended periods of time would damage your liver even more than it is already being damaged. I know non-meth PHs have a less severe effect on liver but I was under the impression that they still do damage.

Good point. But assuming the liver can metabolise the drug and it does not accumulate, the liver would cope. Just like alcohol.

Of course many of these drugs have no decent trial of the non- dose related effects of long term use.

But this would probably be ok if we are talking "cycles" of low and reducing dose over several months and then a gap before doing it agAin

 

[wood23]

Good point. But assuming the liver can metabolise the drug and it does not accumulate, the liver would cope. Just like alcohol.

Of course many of these drugs have no decent trial of the non- dose related effects of long term use.

But this would probably be ok if we are talking "cycles" of low and reducing dose over several months and then a gap before doing it agAin

Like everything to do with these hormones its all" broscience" and trial and error with people on boards like these. A few people on here have talked about the merits of tapering and i think it might have merits. Give it a go and log it on here.

 

[frozencore12]

I've often wondered myself why physicians bother tapering down on short courses of
corticosteroids. I suppose it might make sense to taper down on a longer cycle of an oral AAS, but then again there is little reason for longer duration oral cycles.

Ultimately the question is a matter of d[anabolic]/dt
and how does the HPTA respond to it. MOST CYCLES OF MOST ESTERIFIED AAS NATURALLY TAPER to some extent. Excessive tapering puts one into a sort of limbo land to recovery. It is long and you can't help but to ask will the boys ever recover. With the rapid recovery popular in many PCT protocols you know within a month. There might be times when a longer taper is desirable, such as when there are minor injuries, joint problems, or if an individual is susceptible to psychological problems from rapid swings.

 

[foland]

VERY good question. i dont know much about the science of steroids but to me tapering orals makes MUCH more sense then just stopping cold turkey. many people use this as a way of quitting what there doing/ example is cig smokers. they take the patch and lower the dosage every so often until they are off. i would like to see people that actually know what there talking about have some input.

 

[jsheely]

i would like to see people that actually know what there talking about have some input.

Paging Dr.D

 

[StuartGould]

I've often wondered myself why physicians bother tapering down on short courses of
corticosteroids. I suppose it might make sense to taper down on a longer cycle of an oral AAS, but then again there is little reason for longer duration oral cycles.

Ultimately the question is a matter of d[anabolic]/dt
and how does the HPTA respond to it. MOST CYCLES OF
MOST ESTERIFIED AAS NATURALLY TAPER to some
extent. Excessive tapering puts one into a sort of limbo land
to recovery. It is long and you can't help but to ask will the
boys ever recover. With the rapid recovery popular in many
PCT protocols you know within a month. There might be
times when a longer taper is desirable, such as when there are
minor injuries, joint problems, or if an individual is susceptible
to psychological problems from rapid swings.

thanks.

I guess I am meaning oral anabolic agents, as more comparable with oral corticosteroids.

Also I know nothing about injectable cycles, except testosterone replacement for someone losing their nuts. In my field any involvement with any illegal drug would be career curtains, so for me not an option.

Surely long term cycles with lower dose and gradual taper would provide continual (less dramatic) gains but with lower risk of drug toxicity, hormonal screw ups etc.

I have searched pubmed for all the med literature. Can find studies on the drugs things like epi came from, but ony studies on methylated steroids in limpets etc!

Since I can order all my own blood tests maybe I should do a non- randomised, non- controlled, non-blinded study of one!

 

[mooch2321]

ive been watching this thread for a while.....first off....the tapering theory has been used to great effect for many, many years....in the time before serms were easily accesible and used freely, tapering down was the only way to come off steroids....as far as a long injectable cycle goes i think its a great idea....for orals it would really depend on the drug...i recently ran a 16 week test cycle where i used epi dosed up to 40mgs weeks 14-18....then tapered down to 10mgs ed during pct and for a month or so after....bloodwork was done 2 weeks after pct ended...lipids were within a normal range so were test levels and liver enzymes....i dont remember exactly, i dont have the paperwork in front of me, but i posted it somewhere on am at one point...if anyone cares i will find it....anyway with the right steroid you can taper down an oral...but take something like superdrol...the effect it has on your lipids would completely defeat any positive efects of a downward taper....even running a cycle like...10/20/30/20/10 would completely obliterate your lipid profile...

 

[ktatro1]

kinda like pulsing.....but not really. obviously there is a difference in the methodology of the two, however the goals of the two are relatively similar. trying to maximise long term effects (anabolically) and minimize sides naturally without the help of a pct or other support supps.

 

[mooch2321]

kinda like pulsing.....but not really. obviously there is a difference in the methodology of the two, however the goals of the two are relatively similar. trying to maximise long term effects (anabolically) and minimize sides naturally without the help of a pct or other support supps.

let me clarify...i ran nolva and clomid during pct....i dosed them in the evening and dosed 10mgs of epi first thing in the morning....i am not an advocate of pulsing....i think the hormone fluxes actually produce more sides than they avoid and you sacrifice gains....a straight cycle(as opposed to a pulse) ran with the proper precautions is the way to go imo....but the downward taper has its merits as i suggested earlier....

 

[ktatro1]

allow me to clarify as well I suppose. I was not advocating it, I was merely creating a parallel between the goals of pulsing and tapering. I agree that the straight cycle is the way to go.