Retaining mega water on M1,4

[Lakevillethor]

Fellas,

I don't post on here but I will start more often as I, simply put, cannot stand the teenagers over at bb.com -- sucks though i come over here and I have like 5 posts. Anyway, i am probably going to catch hell from some of you as many of you will probably not believe this but here goes:

I promised Edog that I wasn't going to take any M1,4 diol until I have taken LG's product X. That offer still stands but I couldn't help myself so last night I took 1 mL of M1,4 that I got from sledge (10 mg). I measured my arms too last night - 17.25 cold. I am currently 178 and probably right at 10% --- this is the lightest I have been in probably 3 years -- my blood pressure has also fallen to 110 over 65. Well, this morning I wake up feeling full as hell. Really really full. I haven't weighed myself for the day but...and here's where a lot of you are not going to believe me...my arms are .33 inches bigger than they were when I went to bed cold (almost 17.75 cold this morning). I feel like they are pumped all the time. I am not going to take anymore M1,4 until the product X but I just wanted to tell you all that this compound will pack on size quick but alas most of it will be water IMHO. .33 inches on my arms in 12 hours is nothing short of freakshow I must say.
-AT

 

[badbart]

It converts to dbol and I think it must convert at a high rate with the results people are getting.

 

[Lakevillethor]

It converts to dbol and I think it must convert at a high rate with the results people are getting.

I disagree wholeheartedly. M 1,4 is intrinsically anabolic. M1,4 diol will yield gains on its own and does not need to be converted. Diols interact with the androgen receptor like the actual steroids do. Yes, some will convert to DBOL but, like I said, 90 percent of the gains are attributed to the Methyl-diol itself. Also, regardless of what PA says, I am very certain that 1-AD is intrinsically anabolic. It does not need to convert to 1-test to be effective. The reason that you have to take so much is because of the inactivation through the liver and it may be a weaker androgen.
-AT

 

[badbart]

I disagree wholeheartedly. M 1,4 is intrinsically anabolic. M1,4 diol will yield gains on its own and does not need to be converted. Diols interact with the androgen receptor like the actual steroids do. Yes, some will convert to DBOL but, like I said, 90 percent of the gains are attributed to the Methyl-diol itself. Also, regardless of what PA says, I am very certain that 1-AD is intrinsically anabolic. It does not need to convert to 1-test to be effective. The reason that you have to take so much is because of the inactivation through the liver and it may be a weaker androgen.
-AT

I thought M1,4 was a dione, know one really knows its all theory. What ever it does it works and thats what matters.

 

[Lakevillethor]

well, the picture on the bottle is incorrect either way. I think it actualyl shows DBOL on teh bottle.
-AT

 

[friction515]

This comes from sledges site. "Here we have a methylated version of the boldenone precursor, 1,4diol. In this version, the methylated version of the diol pro-hormone has been used instead of the Dione." So yes it is the diol.

 

[prolangtum]

It will not be all water weight. Drugs such as dbol and anadrol will initially put water weight on the first week, but they will help with cell volumization and supersaturation which will in turn lead to muscle gains. Water retention is key for these drugs to work well.

 

[lifted]

.33 inches on my arms in 12 hours is nothing short of freakshow I must say.
-AT

It's called water retention.

People have already had logs, including myself and proven that its a good compound. I had about the same effects. On day 3 or 4 I had already gained almost a half inch on arms caused from water alone.

 

[Sldge]

the structure on the label is dbol, it converts to dbol, so i thought I would put what it converts to, instead of what it is. I used the diol, not dione version as stated and i have no doubt that some of it is anabolic on its own, but what ever gets converted will be anabolic as well.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I disagree wholeheartedly. M 1,4 is intrinsically anabolic. M1,4 diol will yield gains on its own and does not need to be converted. Diols interact with the androgen receptor like the actual steroids do. Yes, some will convert to DBOL but, like I said, 90 percent of the gains are attributed to the Methyl-diol itself. Also, regardless of what PA says, I am very certain that 1-AD is intrinsically anabolic. It does not need to convert to 1-test to be effective. The reason that you have to take so much is because of the inactivation through the liver and it may be a weaker androgen.
-AT

Well you can disagree but the effects seen are much more like Dbol than the intrinsic properties of M1,4diol. BK even commented that the aromatiziation of this product is much greater than expected so the logical conclusion is that it is converting into Dbol much higher than people thought.

And where did you get this 90% figure? Its completely different with every hormone.

 

[sifu]

Weeeellllll aaaaaa wwwaaaaattttteeeerrr usually comes with the use of Dbol. Come on now man, did you not think ahead of what you are taking? I ran a cutting cycle on it and it worked, water weight and bloat can be controlled, I never got any until I went to 40mg a day, then I went along with 10mg of nolva a day.

If you don't like the product, send it to me, I will gladly use it again. I tested the product for sledge for four weeks and it was a great product. Maybe you weren't ready for that product.

 

[Lakevillethor]

Well you can disagree but the effects seen are much more like Dbol than the intrinsic properties of M1,4diol. BK even commented that the aromatiziation of this product is much greater than expected so the logical conclusion is that it is converting into Dbol much higher than people thought.

And where did you get this 90% figure? Its completely different with every hormone.

When you methylate the compound, you change it intrinsically and change it's anabolic properties. True, the effects are not the same as those noticed when taking 1,4 diol. However, I think methylating the compound stands for a lot more than just a good form of administration. The 90% was just me talking out of me ass --- I did not mean that literally.
-AT

 

[sifu]

If it is going to act like Dbol, then it is going to act like Dbol. What is so hard to comprehend about that? Dbol makes the majority of us retain water. M1,4ADD will do the same. End of story.

 

[Lakevillethor]

Weeeellllll aaaaaa wwwaaaaattttteeeerrr usually comes with the use of Dbol. Come on now man, did you not think ahead of what you are taking? I ran a cutting cycle on it and it worked, water weight and bloat can be controlled, I never got any until I went to 40mg a day, then I went along with 10mg of nolva a day.

If you don't like the product, send it to me, I will gladly use it again. I tested the product for sledge for four weeks and it was a great product. Maybe you weren't ready for that product.

Dude, I already said that I knew it was water weight. I don't know why everyone feels the need to point this out when I talked about it in my first post. And I never said the compound wasn't good -- I just said that I was surprised to see a .33 inch difference in my arms in less than 12 hours. I don't think I am being ignorant here -- that increase in arm size is abnormal regardless of what supps/gear you are taking.
-AT

 

[Lakevillethor]

If it is going to act like Dbol, then it is going to act like Dbol. What is so hard to comprehend about that? Dbol makes the majority of us retain water. M1,4ADD will do the same. End of story.

My point to this whole thing was the rate in which I started retaining water -- not the fact that I am retaining water. I find it amazing that I retained so much water in 12 hours that I put .33 inches on my arms. Have I made my point clear yet???
-AT

 

[badbart]

I feel the love!

 

[Lakevillethor]

Well you can disagree but the effects seen are much more like Dbol than the intrinsic properties of M1,4diol. BK even commented that the aromatiziation of this product is much greater than expected so the logical conclusion is that it is converting into Dbol much higher than people thought.

And where did you get this 90% figure? Its completely different with every hormone.

Also, how does anyone know the intrinsic properties of M1,4diol??? The **** has not been out long engough to make a valid guess. The intrinsic properties of M1,4diol may just be the same as DBOL and therefore, while everyone is thinking that it converts with a high affinity because of the effects, it may just be that, intrinsically, the compound is yielding gains that are the same as DBOL.

 

[sifu]

Well I know that myself and the other testers never experianced that, I didn't retain water the whole time on it, except for puffy nipples when I upped it to 40mg a day.

 

[Lakevillethor]

Well I know that myself and the other testers never experianced that, I didn't retain water the whole time on it, except for puffy nipples when I upped it to 40mg a day.

Well, if God just decided to give me bigger arms overnight I should take it where I can get it then...right?
-AT

 

[size]

Do not let one individual's experience discourage your usage. People respond differently.

 

[sifu]

Hey man, I say go for it. I loved the product. I would take size gains of anything any day.

 

[Greenguy]

Fellas,

my arms are .33 inches bigger than they were when I went to bed cold (almost 17.75 cold this morning). I feel like they are pumped all the time. I am not going to take anymore M1,4 until the product X but I just wanted to tell you all that this compound will pack on size quick but alas most of it will be water IMHO. .33 inches on my arms in 12 hours is nothing short of freakshow I must say.
-AT

I wish it was like that for me. I'v been taking 20mg (2mls) for 2 weeks now, and I have gained nothing. I seem to be immune to aromatization. I never got water weight from transdermal 4ad either.

Greenguy

 

[Dwight Schrute]

When you methylate the compound, you change it intrinsically and change it's anabolic properties. True, the effects are not the same as those noticed when taking 1,4 diol. However, I think methylating the compound stands for a lot more than just a good form of administration. The 90% was just me talking out of me ass --- I did not mean that literally.
-AT

Yes I know. Generally you increase its anabolic potential but decrease its androgenic effects. In most case the increase anabolic effect is from methylating its estrogen metabolite (as with Dbol, methyltest). In this case it would be 17 methyl E2 from the target hormone (Dbol). SO theres your water retention and it doesn't take much (HRT doses are in mcg's). Thats how potent it is.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Also, how does anyone know the intrinsic properties of M1,4diol??? The **** has not been out long engough to make a valid guess. The intrinsic properties of M1,4diol may just be the same as DBOL and therefore, while everyone is thinking that it converts with a high affinity because of the effects, it may just be that, intrinsically, the compound is yielding gains that are the same as DBOL.

How can you have a diol that aromatizes?

 

[Lakevillethor]

How can you have a diol that aromatizes?

Although I am VERY familiar with estradiol and testosterone chemically, I don't know the exact mechanism by which aromatase works. To transform testosterone into estradiol, I believe the following needs to occur:

1. the loss of the 19th carbon
2. double bonds placed at 1,2 and 5,6
3. the double bonded oxygen at 3, replaced with hydroxyl

I hope everyone is not assuming that the only way you can gain water weight is through estrogen conversion. On the contrary, there are steroid receptors in the kidneys that help re-absorb water --- ie aldosterone and other mineralcortico steroids. My assumption is that a lot of teh water abosrption, at this stage in the game, is due to those effects not estrogen conversion.

I understand what you are saying though, Bobo.
-Andrew Thoresen

 

[Sldge]

I dont believe you can. that is what would make it a better choice over the dione. The bigger question is the water retention intra or inter cellular. That makes a difference as well.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Aldosterone is one of the mechanisms by which estrogen causes water retention. Very potent adnrogens can cause water retention through other pathways but M1,4diol intrinsically is not as potent as say, M1T.

AVP agonists do not cause water retetion like estrogen would. If that was the case Nolva would cause drastic water rentention since it is an AVP agonist.

As a diol it cannot aromatize. Its impossible. The only other means that it can aromatize is through its target hormone, in which in has a high conversion rate anyway and the bioavailability is drastically increased.

 

[Lakevillethor]

Aldosterone is one of the mechanisms by which estrogen causes water retention. Very potent adnrogens can cause water retention through other pathways but M1,4diol intrinsically is not as potent as say, M1T.

AVP agonists do not cause water retetion like estrogen would. If that was the case Nolva would cause drastic water rentention since it is an AVP agonist.

As a diol it cannot aromatize. Its impossible. The only other means that it can aromatize is through its target hormone, in which in has a high conversion rate anyway and the bioavailability is drastically increased.

So, with all that in mind, are you coming to the conclusion that M1,4DIOL must be converting to DBOL with high affinity and then to methylestradiol, causing water retention. All of this happening in 12 hours??? Is that what you are saying?
-AT

 

[Dwight Schrute]

My assumption is that a lot of teh water abosrption, at this stage in the game, is due to those effects not estrogen conversion.

I understand what you are saying though, Bobo.
-Andrew Thoresen

I definetly disagree with that. Given that conversion rate is relavtively high, bioavailability is increased, and the fact that 1,4diol cannot aromatize, the only logical conclusion is that its coming from its target hormone.

I don't beleive it would cause the water retention as M1T because its not as potent and doesn't metabolize into 17 methyl DHT.

 

[Lakevillethor]

I dont believe you can. that is what would make it a better choice over the dione. The bigger question is the water retention intra or inter cellular. That makes a difference as well.

Just so I am clear, I want to say that I think the product is good. I am not bashing it here by any means. BTW, what is the overunder on my weight gain in one day on the compound - I am going to guess, with an arm swing of .33 inches, 3 pounds. Yes, I respond unlike anyone else on this ****.
-AT

 

[Dwight Schrute]

So, with all that in mind, are you coming to the conclusion that M1,4DIOL must be converting to DBOL with high affinity and then to methylestradiol, causing water retention. All of this happening in 12 hours??? Is that what you are saying?
-AT

It happens with Dbol. 17 methyl E2 is very fast acting and VERY potent. LIke I said, HRT shows LESS potent forms of estrogen given in mcg's. THere is a reason why Dbol prorably causes more cases of gyno that other other (and the fact its popular)

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I have to lift now.


Talk amongst yourselves...

 

[sifu]

He isn't going to lift

He is going to choke his chicken He'll be back in a minute.

 

[Lakevillethor]

Aldosterone is one of the mechanisms by which estrogen causes water retention. Very potent adnrogens can cause water retention through other pathways but M1,4diol intrinsically is not as potent as say, M1T.

AVP agonists do not cause water retetion like estrogen would. If that was the case Nolva would cause drastic water rentention since it is an AVP agonist.

As a diol it cannot aromatize. Its impossible. The only other means that it can aromatize is through its target hormone, in which in has a high conversion rate anyway and the bioavailability is drastically increased.

I am unaware of anything that suggests increasing estradiol serum levels increases aldosterone. Basically all steroids convert to progesterone from cholesterol. Then they can go two ways one they reach progesterone: Either a conversion from progesterone to 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone via the 17-alpha hydroxylase enzyme (sex steroids) or to 11-deoxycorticosterone via 21-alpha hydroxylase (mineral corticos). Since these two take very very different pathways, I don't even see how incresing estradiol would increase aldosterone levels at all. I may be wrong though if you have a study inducating the opposite. However, it is a widely understood phenomenon that increasing estrogens increases water retention. I am just unsure exactly how this takes place.

All of this "high conversion rate" is pure speculation. There are no hard facts. I find it much easier to believe that the compound M1,4diol is intrinsically anabolic and is causing water retention through some other means besides estrogen conversion and therefore, I gained 3 pound in one day. That's what it was, BTW, I gained 3 pounds from one dose for those of you who are intersted..

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I am unaware of anything that suggests increasing estradiol serum levels increases aldosterone. Basically all steroids convert to progesterone from cholesterol. Then they can go two ways one they reach progesterone: Either a conversion from progesterone to 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone via the 17-alpha hydroxylase enzyme (sex steroids) or to 11-deoxycorticosterone via 21-alpha hydroxylase (mineral corticos). Since these two take very very different pathways, I don't even see how incresing estradiol would increase aldosterone levels at all. I may be wrong though if you have a study inducating the opposite. However, it is a widely understood phenomenon that increasing estrogens increases water retention. I am just unsure exactly how this takes place.

"I did a little research on the two mechanisms whereby estrogen induces water retention (increases in antidiuretic hormone, or AVP, and aldosterone) and discovered that for AVP, tamoxifen is actually an agonist, just like estrogen, so should enhance water retention by that route:


"However, in the presence of the nuclear oestrogen receptor antagonist tamoxifen (10 microM), E2 still produced an inhibition of Cl- secretion...We conclude that E2 inhibits colonic Cl- secretion via a non-genomic pathway that involves intracellular Ca2+ and PKC. It is possible that this gender-specific mechanism contributes to the salt and water retention associated with high E2 states.

"ARGININE8-VASOPRESSIN (AVP) is a nonapeptide, which acts as a neurohypophyseal hormone involved in water metabolism and blood pressure regulation, and also as a CNS neurotransmitter or neuromodulator. The classical VP projections to the neurohypophysis arising from the magnocellular neurons of the supraoptic (SON) and the paraventricular (PVN) nuclei of the hypothalamus have been well described (1, 2)


Gonadal steroid modulation of vasopressin pathways.

De Vries GJ, Crenshaw BJ, al-Shamma HA.

Department of Psychology, University of Massachusetts, Amherst 01003


Estrogen effects on osmotic regulation of AVP and fluid balance.

Stachenfeld NS, Keefe DL.

The John B. Pierce Laboratory and Departments of Epidemiology and Public Health, Yale University School of Medicine and Women and Infants Hospital, Brown University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA. [email protected]

To determine estrogen effects on osmotic regulation of arginine vasopressin (AVP) and body fluids, we suppressed endogenous estrogen and progesterone using the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analog leuprolide acetate (GnRHa). Subjects were assigned to one of two groups: 1) GnRHa alone, then GnRHa + estrogen (E, n = 9, 25 +/- 1 yr); 2) GnRHa alone, then GnRHa + estrogen with progesterone (E/P, n = 6, 26 +/- 3). During GnRHa alone and with hormone treatment, we compared AVP and body fluid regulatory responses to 3% NaCl infusion (HSI, 120 min, 0.1 ml. min(-1). kg body wt(-1)), drinking (30 min, 15 ml/kg body wt), and recovery (60 min of seated rest). Plasma [E(2)] increased from 23.9 to 275.3 pg/ml with hormone treatments. Plasma [P(4)] increased from 0.6 to 5.7 ng/ml during E/P and was unchanged (0.4 to 0.6 ng/ml) during E. Compared with GnRHa alone, E reduced osmotic AVP release threshold (275 +/- 4 to 271 +/- 4 mosmol/kg, P < 0.05), and E/P reduced the AVP increase in response during HSI (6.0 +/- 1.3 to 4.2 +/- 0.6 pg/ml at the end of HSI), but free water clearance was unaffected in either group. Relative to GnRHa, pre-HSI plasma renin activity (PRA) was greater during E (0.8 +/- 0.1 vs. 1.2 +/- 0.2 ng ANG I. ml(-1). h(-1)) but not after HSI or recovery. PRA was greater than GnRHa during E/P at baseline (1.1 +/- 0.2 vs. 2.5 +/- 0.6) and after HSI (0.6 +/- 0.1 vs. 1.1 +/- 1.1) and recovery (0.5 +/- 0.1 vs. 1.3 +/- 0.2 ng ANG I. ml(-1). h(-1)). Baseline fractional excretion of sodium was unaffected by E or E/P but was attenuated by the end of recovery for both E (3.3 +/- 0.6 vs. 2.4 +/- 0.4%) and E/P (2.8 +/- 0.4 vs 1.7 +/- 0.4%, GnRHa alone and with hormone treatment, respectively). Fluid retention increased with both hormone treatments. Renal sensitivity to AVP may be lower during E due to intrarenal effects on water and sodium excretion. E/P increased sodium retention and renin-angiotensin-aldosterone stimulation.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

All of this "high conversion rate" is pure speculation. There are no hard facts. I find it much easier to believe that the compound M1,4diol is intrinsically anabolic and is causing water retention through some other means besides estrogen conversion and therefore, I gained 3 pound in one day. That's what it was, BTW, I gained 3 pounds from one dose for those of you who are intersted..

No its not. Its a fact diols convert at much higher rate tah diones.

"In real world terms however we can see that the diol converts at a much higher rate than the dione (15.76% as opposedto 5.61%)¹ and is therefore more anabolic and has less chance of aromatisation. Estrogen formation of the diol directly is impossible, which is not so for the diones. The target hormone can always aromatize of course, but there is no risk of estrogen formation directly off a diol prohormone, which keep the estrogen balance in check and decreases the risk of estrogen-related side-effects. It simply cannot aromatize because its structure doesn't allow it."

Blaquier J., Forchielli E. and Dorfman R., Acta Endocrinologica, 55, 697-704


The majority of users are experiencing bloating and gyno symptoms (puffy nips). Thats estrogen related water retention. Androgenic induced water retention is mostly increased within muscle glycogen and rarely do you ever get puffy nips in a short peroid of time.

There might be some specualtion be its much more logical to believe its estrogen realted side effects considering the converiosn rate is rather high compared to other PH's AND the bioavailability is extremely high.

 

[sifu]

Today is my second day off, and I still have semi puffy nips.


And yes dammit, I am doing PCT

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Basically all steroids convert to progesterone from cholesterol. Then they can go two ways one they reach progesterone: Either a conversion from progesterone to 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone via the 17-alpha hydroxylase enzyme (sex steroids) or to 11-deoxycorticosterone via 21-alpha hydroxylase (mineral corticos).

You mean Pregnenolone via p450ssc. Then its either progesterone or 17-OH Pregnenolone.

 

[sifu]

Bobo where did you get that from? I have been on pubmed a lot lately, but I am not finding that type of information.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

My hard drive.

 

[2gcorey]

one day at the end of an article i'm gonna see this

The Bobo Laboratory and Departments of I don't lose an arguement on Health, AM University School of Medicine and Women and Infants Hospital, Bobo University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA. [email protected]

 

[sifu]

Mwahahahahaha that is funny **** 2G, but Bobo ahhh I am going to need to confiscate your hard drive.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I don't lose an arguement on Health

You have to take that part out. I was wrong thinking HCG couldn't increase test levels during a cycle. SWALE and Realgains showed me I was wrong. You can't win them all

 

[Lakevillethor]

No its not. Its a fact diols convert at much higher rate tah diones.

"In real world terms however we can see that the diol converts at a much higher rate than the dione (15.76% as opposedto 5.61%)¹ and is therefore more anabolic and has less chance of aromatisation. Estrogen formation of the diol directly is impossible, which is not so for the diones. The target hormone can always aromatize of course, but there is no risk of estrogen formation directly off a diol prohormone, which keep the estrogen balance in check and decreases the risk of estrogen-related side-effects. It simply cannot aromatize because its structure doesn't allow it."

Blaquier J., Forchielli E. and Dorfman R., Acta Endocrinologica, 55, 697-704


The majority of users are experiencing bloating and gyno symptoms (puffy nips). Thats estrogen related water retention. Androgenic induced water retention is mostly increased within muscle glycogen and rarely do you ever get puffy nips in a short peroid of time.

There might be some specualtion be its much more logical to believe its estrogen realted side effects considering the converiosn rate is rather high compared to other PH's AND the bioavailability is extremely high.

Obviously I have a hard time articulating myself. I know that diols convert with a higher affinity than diones do. I was really talking about, when i was reffering to speculation, that no one knows about how anabolic the M1,4diol may or may not be.
-AT

 

[Lakevillethor]

You mean Pregnenolone via p450ssc. Then its either progesterone or 17-OH Pregnenolone.

No, i don't. You only have pathways for sex hormones in that pic. you don't have any corticosteroids on that chart. nevermind - I don't want to go into it.
-AT

 

[Dwight Schrute]

You said ALL steroids, and not ALL do. That might not be what you meant, but thats what you said. Since you said it go either two ways and mentioned progesterone, I figured you mixed them up becuase clearly not ALL steroids convert into progesterone.


The bottom line was that estrogen does cause an increase in aldosterone. You can fiund numerous studies and articels on this fact (its the reason women get water retention during their menstrual cycle).

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Obviously I have a hard time articulating myself. I know that diols convert with a higher affinity than diones do. I was really talking about, when i was reffering to speculation, that no one knows about how anabolic the M1,4diol may or may not be.
-AT

The conlcusion comes from knowing the base structure, how much it aromatizes and how potent the estrogen metabolite is after conversion. Combine that with the reported side effects of the first two logs (puffy nips) its not that hard to conclude that its mostly estrogen related.

 

[bigpetefox]

Regardless of the mumbo-jumbo, where can I get some?

List me!

 

[db682]

Lake,
I heard LG has you training peoplefor them now. Whats that about?
$200 bucks a pop!!
Can you turn pete into ronnie coleman for that chunk of change?


Good luck with it bro,
db

 

[badbart]

Regardless of the mumbo-jumbo, where can I get some?

List me!

Thats right! as long as it works its all good.