Retaining mega water on M1,4

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Obviously. If that really is Pete in that photo, he doesn't need my help.
    -AT
    No, it's not really me.. It's actually Barry Bonds in hiding from the THG scandal...

    There's no IF, ask str8flexed who I am, I met him face to face..


  2. Trust me that is the Pete there in the picture...
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by bigpetefox
    No, it's not really me.. It's actually Barry Bonds in hiding from the THG scandal...

    There's no IF, ask str8flexed who I am, I met him face to face..
    I believe you, bro. How old are you?
    -AT

  4. Quote Originally Posted by bigpetefox
    28
    Give me 5 years and we'll see what's up. BTW, incase anyone is interested, after one dose on Monday night of 10 MG, i am now up 4 pounds total. I have the lower back cramps to prove it. No, i am not kidding so don't even ask.
    -AT

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Give me 5 years and we'll see what's up. BTW, incase anyone is interested, after one dose on Monday night of 10 MG, i am now up 4 pounds total. I have the lower back cramps to prove it. No, i am not kidding so don't even ask.
    -AT
    Mr Sensitivity over here.

    db

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The conlcusion comes from knowing the base structure, how much it aromatizes and how potent the estrogen metabolite is after conversion. Combine that with the reported side effects of the first two logs (puffy nips) its not that hard to conclude that its mostly estrogen related.
    Bobo,

    I still don't know if i am buying on your estrogen conversion theory as the primary reason for water retention within the first 12 hours (notice I said within the first 12 hours). I still think the compound has some substantial intrinsic activity. According to your theory, one would not be able to retain water on M1T as it supposedly does not aromatize (and therefore, you would not have the increased ADH, Aldosterone, AVP levels). I stand as living proof that you can retain quite a bit of water on M1T. I am still waiting on this explaination of how 4-Adiol and 1-test do not aromatize. I don't know why aromatase would not treat these compounds as substrates and convert them into an estrogen like compound. It is true that enzymes rarely work with diols, however, in these instances the diols are on adjacent carbon atoms (e.g., 2 & 3). I am starting to suspect that there is a serious lack of data on this subject and that people are using manufacturers claims as scripture. No one can tell me exactly how aromatase works nor can i find anyhting on this. perhaps my research tactics need revision.
    -AT

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Bobo,

    I still don't know if i am buying on your estrogen conversion theory as the primary reason for water retention within the first 12 hours (notice I said within the first 12 hours). I still think the compound has some substantial intrinsic activity. According to your theory, one would not be able to retain water on M1T as it supposedly does not aromatize (and therefore, you would not have the increased ADH, Aldosterone, AVP levels). I stand as living proof that you can retain quite a bit of water on M1T. I am still waiting on this explaination of how 4-Adiol and 1-test do not aromatize. I don't know why aromatase would not treat these compounds as substrates and convert them into an estrogen like compound. It is true that enzymes rarely work with diols, however, in these instances the diols are on adjacent carbon atoms (e.g., 2 & 3). I am starting to suspect that there is a serious lack of data on this subject and that people are using manufacturers claims as scripture. No one can tell me exactly how aromatase works nor can i find anyhting on this. perhaps my research tactics need revision.
    -AT
    M1T could easily cause water retention because its metabolite is HIGHLY androgenic (17 methyl DHT). I never said you couldn't retain water with something that doesn't aromatize. Androgens can easily cause increased sodium retention but not nearly as much as estrogen would.

    Given the structure of M1,4diol, 1,4diol, dione, boldenone and Dbol, the only one that is potent enough to cause significant and fast acting effects is Dbol. Why? 17 methyl E2.

    There is a serious lack of data with all PH's.

    You don't have to buy the estrogen theory. Thats your choice. But puffy nips aren't caused by its androgenic effects. You keep saying you believe intrisically its very potent. What evidence do you have? I have given my reasons, what are yours? That androgenic stimuation at the kidneys causes increased sodium retention? So does estrogen and more drastically than androgenic stimulation would, not to metnion the several other pathways.


    17 methyl E2 would cause water retention much faster than any androgenic effect would. The dosage needed to cause an effect is extremely small an the reason methyl test and Dbol act so fast. It would have a much faster effect than the intrinsic properties. Those properties occur over time due to several factors (mRNA gene transcription, protein synthesis, increased IGF-1, etc...) along with estrogen.

    If you really want to know, take some Dbol and see what happens. With your reaction, I bet you gain 3lbs.

    I've already used it several time so I know th effects it can cause (since I got gyno from it)
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    M1T could easily cause water retention because its metabolite is HIGHLY androgenic (17 methyl DHT). I never said you couldn't retain water with something that doesn't aromatize. Androgens can easily cause increased sodium retention but not nearly as much as estrogen would.

    Given the structure of M1,4diol, 1,4diol, dione, boldenone and Dbol, the only one that is potent enough to cause significant and fast acting effects is Dbol. Why? 17 methyl E2.

    There is a serious lack of data with all PH's.

    You don't have to buy the estrogen theory. Thats your choice. But puffy nips aren't caused by its androgenic effects. You keep saying you believe intrisically its very potent. What evidence do you have? I have given my reasons, what are yours? That androgenic stimuation at the kidneys causes increased sodium retention? So does estrogen and more drastically than androgenic stimulation would, not to metnion the several other pathways.


    17 methyl E2 would cause water retention much faster than any androgenic effect would. The dosage needed to cause an effect is extremely small an the reason methyl test and Dbol act so fast. It would have a much faster effect than the intrinsic properties. Those properties occur over time due to several factors (mRNA gene transcription, protein synthesis, increased IGF-1, etc...) along with estrogen.

    If you really want to know, take some Dbol and see what happens. With your reaction, I bet you gain 3lbs.

    I've already used it several time so I know th effects it can cause (since I got gyno from it)
    Androgenic side effects, from how it was explained to me via PA, purely pertain to how the steroid effects other sex organs. Water retention via the androgen bonding to the kidney would not be an androgenic side per say; it would just be a side effect of the drug. Anyway, the term "androgenic side effect" is used so widely now days that I will just roll with it.

    I am not at all suggesting that this compound does not cause water retnention via estrogen converison. In the contrary, I believe that this indeed occurs. My argument here is the time frame --- I don't think it is feasible for M1,4 to convert to Dbol and then to methly estradiol in the amount of time I took it (12 hours) then put 3 pounds on me. Doesn't it just seem more likely that it caused sodium retention in the kidney by itself? Like I already said, had I been taking this compound for a few days, I think this is very likely and I would have water retention via estrogen. However, 12 hours...cmon? That or the diol itself aromatizes (did I just say that??? I am not so sure that it doesn't regardless of manufactures claims.) You talk about water retention via 17 methyl DHT. At this point the mechanism by which 1-test converts to methylDHT is not known. Moreover, the amount of which converts to methylDHT is also unknown. I can say though, in support of your claims, that it is a significant conversion as I can feel my prostate when I am on any 1-T product.

    Also, how do you know that M1,4 does not convert to MDHT and then causes water retention that way? BTW, what happens when 5-AR converts M1,4? Do you get M1T?
    -AT

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Androgenic side effects, from how it was explained to me via PA, purely pertain to how the steroid effects other sex organs. Water retention via the androgen bonding to the kidney would not be an androgenic side per say; it would just be a side effect of the drug. Anyway, the term "androgenic side effect" is used so widely now days that I will just roll with it.

    I am not at all suggesting that this compound does not cause water retnention via estrogen converison. In the contrary, I believe that this indeed occurs. My argument here is the time frame --- I don't think it is feasible for M1,4 to convert to Dbol and then to methly estradiol in the amount of time I took it (12 hours) then put 3 pounds on me. Doesn't it just seem more likely that it caused sodium retention in the kidney by itself? Like I already said, had I been taking this compound for a few days, I think this is very likely and I would have water retention via estrogen. However, 12 hours...cmon? That or the diol itself aromatizes (did I just say that??? I am not so sure that it doesn't regardless of manufactures claims.) You talk about water retention via 17 methyl DHT. At this point the mechanism by which 1-test converts to methylDHT is not known. Moreover, the amount of which converts to methylDHT is also unknown. I can say though, in support of your claims, that it is a significant conversion as I can feel my prostate when I am on any 1-T product.

    Also, how do you know that M1,4 does not convert to MDHT and then causes water retention that way? BTW, what happens when 5-AR converts M1,4? Do you get M1T?
    -AT
    Yes I am aware of how Pat has a problem with the terminology of "adrogenic effect", but you and I know both know what people mean when they say "androgenic effects". I already has that disucussion with him. Its a pointless argument now unless you want to go on a crusade to correct all mistakes in terminology. In that case you can call someone on hepatoxicity because its really hepatotoxicity. The former isn't even in any medical dictionary. Now back to the point....

    I don't understand what you mean by time frame. Conversion takes place within nanoseconds. Its almost instantaneous. Ask Pat, he will tell you the same.


    Even though the pathway is unknown in 1-test, it still happens. And from many peoples reselts, seem to happen very much. I think the oringal text say it does happen to a pretty significant degree but I don't have that on hand. I could check as Chemo has it.

    As for how long it takes, here is a study in which water rentention was induced 180 minutes after E2 administration and 17 methyl E2 is much more potent than E2.

    Estrogen influences osmotic secretion of AVP and body water balance in postmenopausal women.

    Stachenfeld NS, DiPietro L, Palter SF, Nadel ER.

    John B. Pierce Laboratory, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA.


    "Water intake was similar between control and E2 (24 vs. 22 ml/kg), but by 180 min of drinking, urine output and free water clearance (CH2O) were reduced by 5.6 +/- 2.3 ml/kg and 2.6 +/- 2.0 ml/min, respectively (P < 0.05) after E2.

    How do I know it doesnt? I never said it didn't but its base has a very small conversion rate to DHT (if at all). Just because you methylate it doesn't mean the converison rate is increased, just the potetny of its metabolites. Boldenone and Dbol aromatize at the saem rate but Dbol's metabolite is much more potent causing the increased water retention.


    To me its simple. What causes much more water retnetion, 17 methyl E2 or 17 methyl DHT? Which is more likely to be present here given the chemical structure? What should one be concerned about mostly when taking this substance? I think everyone here knows the answer.

    What happens in your body specifically nobody knows. Hell I could gain 3lbs in 12 hours from eating. I don't understand why you keep harping on this point unless your bored or something.

    And there really isn't any manufacturer claims. It all comes from the same place. Its not like it a heavily marketed product yet.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
    •   
       


  10. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    However, 12 hours...cmon?
    -AT
    Take Dbol. See what happens. With way you react you might gain 5lbs.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Yes I am aware of how Pat has a problem with the terminology of "adrogenic effect", but you and I know both know what people mean when they say "androgenic effects". I already has that disucussion with him. Its a pointless argument now unless you want to go on a crusade to correct all mistakes in terminology. In that case you can call someone on hepatoxicity because its really hepatotoxicity. The former isn't even in any medical dictionary. Now back to the point....

    I don't understand what you mean by time frame. Conversion takes place within nanoseconds. Its almost instantaneous. Ask Pat, he will tell you the same.


    Even though the pathway is unknown in 1-test, it still happens. And from many peoples reselts, seem to happen very much. I think the oringal text say it does happen to a pretty significant degree but I don't have that on hand. I could check as Chemo has it.

    As for how long it takes, here is a study in which water rentention was induced 180 minutes after E2 administration and 17 methyl E2 is much more potent than E2.

    Estrogen influences osmotic secretion of AVP and body water balance in postmenopausal women.

    Stachenfeld NS, DiPietro L, Palter SF, Nadel ER.

    John B. Pierce Laboratory, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA.


    "Water intake was similar between control and E2 (24 vs. 22 ml/kg), but by 180 min of drinking, urine output and free water clearance (CH2O) were reduced by 5.6 +/- 2.3 ml/kg and 2.6 +/- 2.0 ml/min, respectively (P < 0.05) after E2.

    How do I know it doesnt? I never said it didn't but its base has a very small conversion rate to DHT (if at all). Just because you methylate it doesn't mean the converison rate is increased, just the potetny of its metabolites. Boldenone and Dbol aromatize at the saem rate but Dbol's metabolite is much more potent causing the increased water retention.


    To me its simple. What causes much more water retnetion, 17 methyl E2 or 17 methyl DHT? Which is more likely to be present here given the chemical structure? What should one be concerned about mostly when taking this substance? I think everyone here knows the answer.

    What happens in your body specifically nobody knows. Hell I could gain 3lbs in 12 hours from eating. I don't understand why you keep harping on this point unless your bored or something.

    And there really isn't any manufacturer claims. It all comes from the same place. Its not like it a heavily marketed product yet.
    Its just an informative debate - that's all. So what would happen to M1,4 when it reacts with 5-AR? I was wrong - I should have said, would you get M1-AD? That's a little crazy...
    -AT

  12. I have no clue. You would to have ask Pat or Chemo that one. That is not my area of expertise.


    I guess its a debate. IMO its more brainstorming than anything. What your stating could discussed with all hormones to a degree.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    you barely react to anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by theprolangtum
    Tragically this is very true.
    Wouldn't this suggest that theprolangtum would get less sides?

    Keep seeing people writing "Pro's not having any real sides" and thinking this is evidence of something being safe.

    Traps

  14. Take his doses and divide by two for a sane, normal human being.

    I, too, am cursed by a bit of a non-responder problem, but not as much as Pro.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by MrTrap
    Wouldn't this suggest that theprolangtum would get less sides?

    Keep seeing people writing "Pro's not having any real sides" and thinking this is evidence of something being safe.

    Traps
    Maybe, maybe not. How thats for being conclusive

    With methydienolone there really is no basic for comparison. However we can compare M1,4 with other hormones as to what should happen, but even that isn't always true...Most of these are very loose guidelines and should never be taken as fact. Its FAR from it.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  

  
 

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