Retaining mega water on M1,4

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    So, with all that in mind, are you coming to the conclusion that M1,4DIOL must be converting to DBOL with high affinity and then to methylestradiol, causing water retention. All of this happening in 12 hours??? Is that what you are saying?
    -AT
    It happens with Dbol. 17 methyl E2 is very fast acting and VERY potent. LIke I said, HRT shows LESS potent forms of estrogen given in mcg's. THere is a reason why Dbol prorably causes more cases of gyno that other other (and the fact its popular)
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  2. I have to lift now.


    Talk amongst yourselves...
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  3. He isn't going to lift

    He is going to choke his chicken He'll be back in a minute.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Aldosterone is one of the mechanisms by which estrogen causes water retention. Very potent adnrogens can cause water retention through other pathways but M1,4diol intrinsically is not as potent as say, M1T.

    AVP agonists do not cause water retetion like estrogen would. If that was the case Nolva would cause drastic water rentention since it is an AVP agonist.

    As a diol it cannot aromatize. Its impossible. The only other means that it can aromatize is through its target hormone, in which in has a high conversion rate anyway and the bioavailability is drastically increased.
    I am unaware of anything that suggests increasing estradiol serum levels increases aldosterone. Basically all steroids convert to progesterone from cholesterol. Then they can go two ways one they reach progesterone: Either a conversion from progesterone to 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone via the 17-alpha hydroxylase enzyme (sex steroids) or to 11-deoxycorticosterone via 21-alpha hydroxylase (mineral corticos). Since these two take very very different pathways, I don't even see how incresing estradiol would increase aldosterone levels at all. I may be wrong though if you have a study inducating the opposite. However, it is a widely understood phenomenon that increasing estrogens increases water retention. I am just unsure exactly how this takes place.

    All of this "high conversion rate" is pure speculation. There are no hard facts. I find it much easier to believe that the compound M1,4diol is intrinsically anabolic and is causing water retention through some other means besides estrogen conversion and therefore, I gained 3 pound in one day. That's what it was, BTW, I gained 3 pounds from one dose for those of you who are intersted..

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    I am unaware of anything that suggests increasing estradiol serum levels increases aldosterone. Basically all steroids convert to progesterone from cholesterol. Then they can go two ways one they reach progesterone: Either a conversion from progesterone to 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone via the 17-alpha hydroxylase enzyme (sex steroids) or to 11-deoxycorticosterone via 21-alpha hydroxylase (mineral corticos). Since these two take very very different pathways, I don't even see how incresing estradiol would increase aldosterone levels at all. I may be wrong though if you have a study inducating the opposite. However, it is a widely understood phenomenon that increasing estrogens increases water retention. I am just unsure exactly how this takes place.

    "I did a little research on the two mechanisms whereby estrogen induces water retention (increases in antidiuretic hormone, or AVP, and aldosterone) and discovered that for AVP, tamoxifen is actually an agonist, just like estrogen, so should enhance water retention by that route:


    "However, in the presence of the nuclear oestrogen receptor antagonist tamoxifen (10 microM), E2 still produced an inhibition of Cl- secretion...We conclude that E2 inhibits colonic Cl- secretion via a non-genomic pathway that involves intracellular Ca2+ and PKC. It is possible that this gender-specific mechanism contributes to the salt and water retention associated with high E2 states.

    "ARGININE8-VASOPRESSIN (AVP) is a nonapeptide, which acts as a neurohypophyseal hormone involved in water metabolism and blood pressure regulation, and also as a CNS neurotransmitter or neuromodulator. The classical VP projections to the neurohypophysis arising from the magnocellular neurons of the supraoptic (SON) and the paraventricular (PVN) nuclei of the hypothalamus have been well described (1, 2)


    Gonadal steroid modulation of vasopressin pathways.

    De Vries GJ, Crenshaw BJ, al-Shamma HA.

    Department of Psychology, University of Massachusetts, Amherst 01003


    Estrogen effects on osmotic regulation of AVP and fluid balance.

    Stachenfeld NS, Keefe DL.

    The John B. Pierce Laboratory and Departments of Epidemiology and Public Health, Yale University School of Medicine and Women and Infants Hospital, Brown University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA. [email protected]

    To determine estrogen effects on osmotic regulation of arginine vasopressin (AVP) and body fluids, we suppressed endogenous estrogen and progesterone using the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analog leuprolide acetate (GnRHa). Subjects were assigned to one of two groups: 1) GnRHa alone, then GnRHa + estrogen (E, n = 9, 25 +/- 1 yr); 2) GnRHa alone, then GnRHa + estrogen with progesterone (E/P, n = 6, 26 +/- 3). During GnRHa alone and with hormone treatment, we compared AVP and body fluid regulatory responses to 3% NaCl infusion (HSI, 120 min, 0.1 ml. min(-1). kg body wt(-1)), drinking (30 min, 15 ml/kg body wt), and recovery (60 min of seated rest). Plasma [E(2)] increased from 23.9 to 275.3 pg/ml with hormone treatments. Plasma [P(4)] increased from 0.6 to 5.7 ng/ml during E/P and was unchanged (0.4 to 0.6 ng/ml) during E. Compared with GnRHa alone, E reduced osmotic AVP release threshold (275 +/- 4 to 271 +/- 4 mosmol/kg, P < 0.05), and E/P reduced the AVP increase in response during HSI (6.0 +/- 1.3 to 4.2 +/- 0.6 pg/ml at the end of HSI), but free water clearance was unaffected in either group. Relative to GnRHa, pre-HSI plasma renin activity (PRA) was greater during E (0.8 +/- 0.1 vs. 1.2 +/- 0.2 ng ANG I. ml(-1). h(-1)) but not after HSI or recovery. PRA was greater than GnRHa during E/P at baseline (1.1 +/- 0.2 vs. 2.5 +/- 0.6) and after HSI (0.6 +/- 0.1 vs. 1.1 +/- 1.1) and recovery (0.5 +/- 0.1 vs. 1.3 +/- 0.2 ng ANG I. ml(-1). h(-1)). Baseline fractional excretion of sodium was unaffected by E or E/P but was attenuated by the end of recovery for both E (3.3 +/- 0.6 vs. 2.4 +/- 0.4%) and E/P (2.8 +/- 0.4 vs 1.7 +/- 0.4%, GnRHa alone and with hormone treatment, respectively). Fluid retention increased with both hormone treatments. Renal sensitivity to AVP may be lower during E due to intrarenal effects on water and sodium excretion. E/P increased sodium retention and renin-angiotensin-aldosterone stimulation.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor

    All of this "high conversion rate" is pure speculation. There are no hard facts. I find it much easier to believe that the compound M1,4diol is intrinsically anabolic and is causing water retention through some other means besides estrogen conversion and therefore, I gained 3 pound in one day. That's what it was, BTW, I gained 3 pounds from one dose for those of you who are intersted..
    No its not. Its a fact diols convert at much higher rate tah diones.

    "In real world terms however we can see that the diol converts at a much higher rate than the dione (15.76% as opposedto 5.61%) and is therefore more anabolic and has less chance of aromatisation. Estrogen formation of the diol directly is impossible, which is not so for the diones. The target hormone can always aromatize of course, but there is no risk of estrogen formation directly off a diol prohormone, which keep the estrogen balance in check and decreases the risk of estrogen-related side-effects. It simply cannot aromatize because its structure doesn't allow it."

    Blaquier J., Forchielli E. and Dorfman R., Acta Endocrinologica, 55, 697-704


    The majority of users are experiencing bloating and gyno symptoms (puffy nips). Thats estrogen related water retention. Androgenic induced water retention is mostly increased within muscle glycogen and rarely do you ever get puffy nips in a short peroid of time.

    There might be some specualtion be its much more logical to believe its estrogen realted side effects considering the converiosn rate is rather high compared to other PH's AND the bioavailability is extremely high.
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  7. Today is my second day off, and I still have semi puffy nips.


    And yes dammit, I am doing PCT

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Basically all steroids convert to progesterone from cholesterol. Then they can go two ways one they reach progesterone: Either a conversion from progesterone to 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone via the 17-alpha hydroxylase enzyme (sex steroids) or to 11-deoxycorticosterone via 21-alpha hydroxylase (mineral corticos).
    You mean Pregnenolone via p450ssc. Then its either progesterone or 17-OH Pregnenolone.
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  9. Bobo where did you get that from? I have been on pubmed a lot lately, but I am not finding that type of information.

  10. My hard drive.
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  11. one day at the end of an article i'm gonna see this

    The Bobo Laboratory and Departments of I don't lose an arguement on Health, AM University School of Medicine and Women and Infants Hospital, Bobo University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA. bobo@****off.org

  12. Mwahahahahaha that is funny **** 2G, but Bobo ahhh I am going to need to confiscate your hard drive.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by 2gcorey
    I don't lose an arguement on Health

    You have to take that part out. I was wrong thinking HCG couldn't increase test levels during a cycle. SWALE and Realgains showed me I was wrong. You can't win them all
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    No its not. Its a fact diols convert at much higher rate tah diones.

    "In real world terms however we can see that the diol converts at a much higher rate than the dione (15.76% as opposedto 5.61%) and is therefore more anabolic and has less chance of aromatisation. Estrogen formation of the diol directly is impossible, which is not so for the diones. The target hormone can always aromatize of course, but there is no risk of estrogen formation directly off a diol prohormone, which keep the estrogen balance in check and decreases the risk of estrogen-related side-effects. It simply cannot aromatize because its structure doesn't allow it."

    Blaquier J., Forchielli E. and Dorfman R., Acta Endocrinologica, 55, 697-704


    The majority of users are experiencing bloating and gyno symptoms (puffy nips). Thats estrogen related water retention. Androgenic induced water retention is mostly increased within muscle glycogen and rarely do you ever get puffy nips in a short peroid of time.

    There might be some specualtion be its much more logical to believe its estrogen realted side effects considering the converiosn rate is rather high compared to other PH's AND the bioavailability is extremely high.
    Obviously I have a hard time articulating myself. I know that diols convert with a higher affinity than diones do. I was really talking about, when i was reffering to speculation, that no one knows about how anabolic the M1,4diol may or may not be.
    -AT

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You mean Pregnenolone via p450ssc. Then its either progesterone or 17-OH Pregnenolone.
    No, i don't. You only have pathways for sex hormones in that pic. you don't have any corticosteroids on that chart. nevermind - I don't want to go into it.
    -AT

  16. You said ALL steroids, and not ALL do. That might not be what you meant, but thats what you said. Since you said it go either two ways and mentioned progesterone, I figured you mixed them up becuase clearly not ALL steroids convert into progesterone.


    The bottom line was that estrogen does cause an increase in aldosterone. You can fiund numerous studies and articels on this fact (its the reason women get water retention during their menstrual cycle).
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Obviously I have a hard time articulating myself. I know that diols convert with a higher affinity than diones do. I was really talking about, when i was reffering to speculation, that no one knows about how anabolic the M1,4diol may or may not be.
    -AT
    The conlcusion comes from knowing the base structure, how much it aromatizes and how potent the estrogen metabolite is after conversion. Combine that with the reported side effects of the first two logs (puffy nips) its not that hard to conclude that its mostly estrogen related.
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  18. Regardless of the mumbo-jumbo, where can I get some?

    List me!

  19. Lake,
    I heard LG has you training peoplefor them now. Whats that about?
    $200 bucks a pop!!
    Can you turn pete into ronnie coleman for that chunk of change?


    Good luck with it bro,
    db

  20. Quote Originally Posted by bigpetefox
    Regardless of the mumbo-jumbo, where can I get some?

    List me!

    Thats right! as long as it works its all good.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by db682
    Lake,
    I heard LG has you training peoplefor them now. Whats that about?
    $200 bucks a pop!!
    Can you turn pete into ronnie coleman for that chunk of change?


    Good luck with it bro,
    db
    Obviously. If that really is Pete in that photo, he doesn't need my help.
    -AT

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The conlcusion comes from knowing the base structure, how much it aromatizes and how potent the estrogen metabolite is after conversion. Combine that with the reported side effects of the first two logs (puffy nips) its not that hard to conclude that its mostly estrogen related.
    I guess, now that I examine the facts and that people are getting puffy nips, it would make sense that it must be converting to the target steroid with a decent effeciency and therefore, converting to methylestradiol. Let's switch gears here briefly:

    Can anyone explain, by the exact mecahnism, how aromatase works. I cannot find this anywhere and I was never explained this in my biochem classes. The thing that confuses me is how loosely people use the term aromatize -- as a lot of people use the term but don't really know what the hell is going on. As I mentioned previously, the following needs to occur to transform testosterone into estradiol:

    1. the loss of the 19th carbon
    2. The institution of double bonds placed at 1,2, and 5,6 (actually this is not really right as this benzene ring type structure actually shares the bond as in any aromatic hydrocarbon)
    3. Replacement of the existing double bonded O at 3, with an OH.

    My question comes into play when you examine the structures of adione and test. Both aromatize but come to different isomers. adione aromatizes to estrone which, chemically, has a double bonded O at 17 and a double bonded OH at 3. For this to occur, aromatase must place double bonds at 1,2 and 5,6, and convert the 3rd O to a OH.

    By comparing the two structure, one could infer that aromatase converts the 3rd position to an OH and places double bonds at 1,2, and 5,6, while leaving whatever is at 17 alone.

    however, does anyone know what aromatase does to 1,4? Obviously it converts it to estradiol...however, does it just place another bond at 5,6 (again, this is not really right). Or does it tear off whatever was the A ring and slap on a benzene? And why can diols not aromatize? I know that they physically cannot but why?
    -AT

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You said ALL steroids, and not ALL do. That might not be what you meant, but thats what you said. Since you said it go either two ways and mentioned progesterone, I figured you mixed them up becuase clearly not ALL steroids convert into progesterone.


    The bottom line was that estrogen does cause an increase in aldosterone. You can fiund numerous studies and articels on this fact (its the reason women get water retention during their menstrual cycle).
    I would like to go into the whole aldosterone thing too...although I do not really have the time. Since that study suggests increases in many things, it's most likely that it is not just aldosterone that increases the water absorption. ADH and AVP are also increased so therefore, you would have more water absorption. I am know I am stating the obvious here I just wanted to clarify that...I still do not see how, from a biochem standpoint, increasing estradiol would increase aldosterone (these are RADICALLY different pathways in steroid synthesis and are not even related)...that's the thing about medicine though...when it comes doen to it, no one knows why **** works.
    -AT

  24. Well, the m 1,4 diol must have some mega intristic value, because 10mgs of dbol does nothing for most, alls it does for me is give me a headache. I dont think my GF can gain weight on 10mgs of dbol (j/k)

  25. Quote Originally Posted by theprolangtum
    Well, the m 1,4 diol must have some mega intristic value, because 10mgs of dbol does nothing for most, alls it does for me is give me a headache. I dont think my GF can gain weight on 10mgs of dbol (j/k)
    We need someone to chime in who has used both dbol and M1,4 diol and tell use the diffrent effects.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by theprolangtum
    Well, the m 1,4 diol must have some mega intristic value, because 10mgs of dbol does nothing for most, alls it does for me is give me a headache. I dont think my GF can gain weight on 10mgs of dbol (j/k)
    Interesting.
    -AT

  27. Quote Originally Posted by theprolangtum
    Well, the m 1,4 diol must have some mega intristic value, because 10mgs of dbol does nothing for most, alls it does for me is give me a headache. I dont think my GF can gain weight on 10mgs of dbol (j/k)
    You and lake are polar opposites. He gains 10lbs in a week off of M1T, you barely react to anything.
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  28. Quote Originally Posted by badbart
    We need someone to chime in who has used both dbol and M1,4 diol and tell use the diffrent effects.
    The effects they are seeing are exactly the same as I get with Dbol (just not as much).
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  29. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You and lake are polar opposites. He gains 10lbs in a week off of M1T, you barely react to anything.
    tragically this is very true. 100mgs of e-HCL is a nice pre WO boost only, most would have a heart attack. M dien is the only thing so far I have taken save tren, and said, wow, this **** works good (scientifically speaking).

  30. I wouldnt worry so much about which way it is going. I believe there is a higher rate of conversion to dbol, 1. because it is a diol of a already higher bioavailabilty and converting ph, 2. it is methylated

    But if it were very intrinsic on its own, and having a small amount of conversion, or having a large amount of conversion and what isnt converted is anabolic, either way it is still anabolic. Since the diol cannot convert to estrogen without being converted to dbol first, and there are estrogen related sides, it wold seem to go that way. But either way it is working great.

    Its good having Prolangtum as a tester, when nothing works well for him, and he tries something and it works really well, then it should work for everyone. On the other side, Lakeville responds very well to much smaller dosing.
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