Retaining mega water on M1,4

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    one day at the end of an article i'm gonna see this

    The Bobo Laboratory and Departments of I don't lose an arguement on Health, AM University School of Medicine and Women and Infants Hospital, Bobo University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA. bobo@****off.org

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    Mwahahahahaha that is funny **** 2G, but Bobo ahhh I am going to need to confiscate your hard drive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2gcorey
    I don't lose an arguement on Health

    You have to take that part out. I was wrong thinking HCG couldn't increase test levels during a cycle. SWALE and Realgains showed me I was wrong. You can't win them all
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    No its not. Its a fact diols convert at much higher rate tah diones.

    "In real world terms however we can see that the diol converts at a much higher rate than the dione (15.76% as opposedto 5.61%) and is therefore more anabolic and has less chance of aromatisation. Estrogen formation of the diol directly is impossible, which is not so for the diones. The target hormone can always aromatize of course, but there is no risk of estrogen formation directly off a diol prohormone, which keep the estrogen balance in check and decreases the risk of estrogen-related side-effects. It simply cannot aromatize because its structure doesn't allow it."

    Blaquier J., Forchielli E. and Dorfman R., Acta Endocrinologica, 55, 697-704


    The majority of users are experiencing bloating and gyno symptoms (puffy nips). Thats estrogen related water retention. Androgenic induced water retention is mostly increased within muscle glycogen and rarely do you ever get puffy nips in a short peroid of time.

    There might be some specualtion be its much more logical to believe its estrogen realted side effects considering the converiosn rate is rather high compared to other PH's AND the bioavailability is extremely high.
    Obviously I have a hard time articulating myself. I know that diols convert with a higher affinity than diones do. I was really talking about, when i was reffering to speculation, that no one knows about how anabolic the M1,4diol may or may not be.
    -AT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You mean Pregnenolone via p450ssc. Then its either progesterone or 17-OH Pregnenolone.
    No, i don't. You only have pathways for sex hormones in that pic. you don't have any corticosteroids on that chart. nevermind - I don't want to go into it.
    -AT
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    You said ALL steroids, and not ALL do. That might not be what you meant, but thats what you said. Since you said it go either two ways and mentioned progesterone, I figured you mixed them up becuase clearly not ALL steroids convert into progesterone.


    The bottom line was that estrogen does cause an increase in aldosterone. You can fiund numerous studies and articels on this fact (its the reason women get water retention during their menstrual cycle).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Obviously I have a hard time articulating myself. I know that diols convert with a higher affinity than diones do. I was really talking about, when i was reffering to speculation, that no one knows about how anabolic the M1,4diol may or may not be.
    -AT
    The conlcusion comes from knowing the base structure, how much it aromatizes and how potent the estrogen metabolite is after conversion. Combine that with the reported side effects of the first two logs (puffy nips) its not that hard to conclude that its mostly estrogen related.
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    Regardless of the mumbo-jumbo, where can I get some?

    List me!
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    Lake,
    I heard LG has you training peoplefor them now. Whats that about?
    $200 bucks a pop!!
    Can you turn pete into ronnie coleman for that chunk of change?


    Good luck with it bro,
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpetefox
    Regardless of the mumbo-jumbo, where can I get some?

    List me!

    Thats right! as long as it works its all good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by db682
    Lake,
    I heard LG has you training peoplefor them now. Whats that about?
    $200 bucks a pop!!
    Can you turn pete into ronnie coleman for that chunk of change?


    Good luck with it bro,
    db
    Obviously. If that really is Pete in that photo, he doesn't need my help.
    -AT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The conlcusion comes from knowing the base structure, how much it aromatizes and how potent the estrogen metabolite is after conversion. Combine that with the reported side effects of the first two logs (puffy nips) its not that hard to conclude that its mostly estrogen related.
    I guess, now that I examine the facts and that people are getting puffy nips, it would make sense that it must be converting to the target steroid with a decent effeciency and therefore, converting to methylestradiol. Let's switch gears here briefly:

    Can anyone explain, by the exact mecahnism, how aromatase works. I cannot find this anywhere and I was never explained this in my biochem classes. The thing that confuses me is how loosely people use the term aromatize -- as a lot of people use the term but don't really know what the hell is going on. As I mentioned previously, the following needs to occur to transform testosterone into estradiol:

    1. the loss of the 19th carbon
    2. The institution of double bonds placed at 1,2, and 5,6 (actually this is not really right as this benzene ring type structure actually shares the bond as in any aromatic hydrocarbon)
    3. Replacement of the existing double bonded O at 3, with an OH.

    My question comes into play when you examine the structures of adione and test. Both aromatize but come to different isomers. adione aromatizes to estrone which, chemically, has a double bonded O at 17 and a double bonded OH at 3. For this to occur, aromatase must place double bonds at 1,2 and 5,6, and convert the 3rd O to a OH.

    By comparing the two structure, one could infer that aromatase converts the 3rd position to an OH and places double bonds at 1,2, and 5,6, while leaving whatever is at 17 alone.

    however, does anyone know what aromatase does to 1,4? Obviously it converts it to estradiol...however, does it just place another bond at 5,6 (again, this is not really right). Or does it tear off whatever was the A ring and slap on a benzene? And why can diols not aromatize? I know that they physically cannot but why?
    -AT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You said ALL steroids, and not ALL do. That might not be what you meant, but thats what you said. Since you said it go either two ways and mentioned progesterone, I figured you mixed them up becuase clearly not ALL steroids convert into progesterone.


    The bottom line was that estrogen does cause an increase in aldosterone. You can fiund numerous studies and articels on this fact (its the reason women get water retention during their menstrual cycle).
    I would like to go into the whole aldosterone thing too...although I do not really have the time. Since that study suggests increases in many things, it's most likely that it is not just aldosterone that increases the water absorption. ADH and AVP are also increased so therefore, you would have more water absorption. I am know I am stating the obvious here I just wanted to clarify that...I still do not see how, from a biochem standpoint, increasing estradiol would increase aldosterone (these are RADICALLY different pathways in steroid synthesis and are not even related)...that's the thing about medicine though...when it comes doen to it, no one knows why **** works.
    -AT
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    Well, the m 1,4 diol must have some mega intristic value, because 10mgs of dbol does nothing for most, alls it does for me is give me a headache. I dont think my GF can gain weight on 10mgs of dbol (j/k)
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    Quote Originally Posted by theprolangtum
    Well, the m 1,4 diol must have some mega intristic value, because 10mgs of dbol does nothing for most, alls it does for me is give me a headache. I dont think my GF can gain weight on 10mgs of dbol (j/k)
    We need someone to chime in who has used both dbol and M1,4 diol and tell use the diffrent effects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theprolangtum
    Well, the m 1,4 diol must have some mega intristic value, because 10mgs of dbol does nothing for most, alls it does for me is give me a headache. I dont think my GF can gain weight on 10mgs of dbol (j/k)
    Interesting.
    -AT
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    Quote Originally Posted by theprolangtum
    Well, the m 1,4 diol must have some mega intristic value, because 10mgs of dbol does nothing for most, alls it does for me is give me a headache. I dont think my GF can gain weight on 10mgs of dbol (j/k)
    You and lake are polar opposites. He gains 10lbs in a week off of M1T, you barely react to anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbart
    We need someone to chime in who has used both dbol and M1,4 diol and tell use the diffrent effects.
    The effects they are seeing are exactly the same as I get with Dbol (just not as much).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You and lake are polar opposites. He gains 10lbs in a week off of M1T, you barely react to anything.
    tragically this is very true. 100mgs of e-HCL is a nice pre WO boost only, most would have a heart attack. M dien is the only thing so far I have taken save tren, and said, wow, this **** works good (scientifically speaking).
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    I wouldnt worry so much about which way it is going. I believe there is a higher rate of conversion to dbol, 1. because it is a diol of a already higher bioavailabilty and converting ph, 2. it is methylated

    But if it were very intrinsic on its own, and having a small amount of conversion, or having a large amount of conversion and what isnt converted is anabolic, either way it is still anabolic. Since the diol cannot convert to estrogen without being converted to dbol first, and there are estrogen related sides, it wold seem to go that way. But either way it is working great.

    Its good having Prolangtum as a tester, when nothing works well for him, and he tries something and it works really well, then it should work for everyone. On the other side, Lakeville responds very well to much smaller dosing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Obviously. If that really is Pete in that photo, he doesn't need my help.
    -AT
    No, it's not really me.. It's actually Barry Bonds in hiding from the THG scandal...

    There's no IF, ask str8flexed who I am, I met him face to face..
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    Trust me that is the Pete there in the picture...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpetefox
    No, it's not really me.. It's actually Barry Bonds in hiding from the THG scandal...

    There's no IF, ask str8flexed who I am, I met him face to face..
    I believe you, bro. How old are you?
    -AT
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpetefox
    28
    Give me 5 years and we'll see what's up. BTW, incase anyone is interested, after one dose on Monday night of 10 MG, i am now up 4 pounds total. I have the lower back cramps to prove it. No, i am not kidding so don't even ask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Give me 5 years and we'll see what's up. BTW, incase anyone is interested, after one dose on Monday night of 10 MG, i am now up 4 pounds total. I have the lower back cramps to prove it. No, i am not kidding so don't even ask.
    -AT
    Mr Sensitivity over here.

    db
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The conlcusion comes from knowing the base structure, how much it aromatizes and how potent the estrogen metabolite is after conversion. Combine that with the reported side effects of the first two logs (puffy nips) its not that hard to conclude that its mostly estrogen related.
    Bobo,

    I still don't know if i am buying on your estrogen conversion theory as the primary reason for water retention within the first 12 hours (notice I said within the first 12 hours). I still think the compound has some substantial intrinsic activity. According to your theory, one would not be able to retain water on M1T as it supposedly does not aromatize (and therefore, you would not have the increased ADH, Aldosterone, AVP levels). I stand as living proof that you can retain quite a bit of water on M1T. I am still waiting on this explaination of how 4-Adiol and 1-test do not aromatize. I don't know why aromatase would not treat these compounds as substrates and convert them into an estrogen like compound. It is true that enzymes rarely work with diols, however, in these instances the diols are on adjacent carbon atoms (e.g., 2 & 3). I am starting to suspect that there is a serious lack of data on this subject and that people are using manufacturers claims as scripture. No one can tell me exactly how aromatase works nor can i find anyhting on this. perhaps my research tactics need revision.
    -AT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Bobo,

    I still don't know if i am buying on your estrogen conversion theory as the primary reason for water retention within the first 12 hours (notice I said within the first 12 hours). I still think the compound has some substantial intrinsic activity. According to your theory, one would not be able to retain water on M1T as it supposedly does not aromatize (and therefore, you would not have the increased ADH, Aldosterone, AVP levels). I stand as living proof that you can retain quite a bit of water on M1T. I am still waiting on this explaination of how 4-Adiol and 1-test do not aromatize. I don't know why aromatase would not treat these compounds as substrates and convert them into an estrogen like compound. It is true that enzymes rarely work with diols, however, in these instances the diols are on adjacent carbon atoms (e.g., 2 & 3). I am starting to suspect that there is a serious lack of data on this subject and that people are using manufacturers claims as scripture. No one can tell me exactly how aromatase works nor can i find anyhting on this. perhaps my research tactics need revision.
    -AT
    M1T could easily cause water retention because its metabolite is HIGHLY androgenic (17 methyl DHT). I never said you couldn't retain water with something that doesn't aromatize. Androgens can easily cause increased sodium retention but not nearly as much as estrogen would.

    Given the structure of M1,4diol, 1,4diol, dione, boldenone and Dbol, the only one that is potent enough to cause significant and fast acting effects is Dbol. Why? 17 methyl E2.

    There is a serious lack of data with all PH's.

    You don't have to buy the estrogen theory. Thats your choice. But puffy nips aren't caused by its androgenic effects. You keep saying you believe intrisically its very potent. What evidence do you have? I have given my reasons, what are yours? That androgenic stimuation at the kidneys causes increased sodium retention? So does estrogen and more drastically than androgenic stimulation would, not to metnion the several other pathways.


    17 methyl E2 would cause water retention much faster than any androgenic effect would. The dosage needed to cause an effect is extremely small an the reason methyl test and Dbol act so fast. It would have a much faster effect than the intrinsic properties. Those properties occur over time due to several factors (mRNA gene transcription, protein synthesis, increased IGF-1, etc...) along with estrogen.

    If you really want to know, take some Dbol and see what happens. With your reaction, I bet you gain 3lbs.

    I've already used it several time so I know th effects it can cause (since I got gyno from it)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    M1T could easily cause water retention because its metabolite is HIGHLY androgenic (17 methyl DHT). I never said you couldn't retain water with something that doesn't aromatize. Androgens can easily cause increased sodium retention but not nearly as much as estrogen would.

    Given the structure of M1,4diol, 1,4diol, dione, boldenone and Dbol, the only one that is potent enough to cause significant and fast acting effects is Dbol. Why? 17 methyl E2.

    There is a serious lack of data with all PH's.

    You don't have to buy the estrogen theory. Thats your choice. But puffy nips aren't caused by its androgenic effects. You keep saying you believe intrisically its very potent. What evidence do you have? I have given my reasons, what are yours? That androgenic stimuation at the kidneys causes increased sodium retention? So does estrogen and more drastically than androgenic stimulation would, not to metnion the several other pathways.


    17 methyl E2 would cause water retention much faster than any androgenic effect would. The dosage needed to cause an effect is extremely small an the reason methyl test and Dbol act so fast. It would have a much faster effect than the intrinsic properties. Those properties occur over time due to several factors (mRNA gene transcription, protein synthesis, increased IGF-1, etc...) along with estrogen.

    If you really want to know, take some Dbol and see what happens. With your reaction, I bet you gain 3lbs.

    I've already used it several time so I know th effects it can cause (since I got gyno from it)
    Androgenic side effects, from how it was explained to me via PA, purely pertain to how the steroid effects other sex organs. Water retention via the androgen bonding to the kidney would not be an androgenic side per say; it would just be a side effect of the drug. Anyway, the term "androgenic side effect" is used so widely now days that I will just roll with it.

    I am not at all suggesting that this compound does not cause water retnention via estrogen converison. In the contrary, I believe that this indeed occurs. My argument here is the time frame --- I don't think it is feasible for M1,4 to convert to Dbol and then to methly estradiol in the amount of time I took it (12 hours) then put 3 pounds on me. Doesn't it just seem more likely that it caused sodium retention in the kidney by itself? Like I already said, had I been taking this compound for a few days, I think this is very likely and I would have water retention via estrogen. However, 12 hours...cmon? That or the diol itself aromatizes (did I just say that??? I am not so sure that it doesn't regardless of manufactures claims.) You talk about water retention via 17 methyl DHT. At this point the mechanism by which 1-test converts to methylDHT is not known. Moreover, the amount of which converts to methylDHT is also unknown. I can say though, in support of your claims, that it is a significant conversion as I can feel my prostate when I am on any 1-T product.

    Also, how do you know that M1,4 does not convert to MDHT and then causes water retention that way? BTW, what happens when 5-AR converts M1,4? Do you get M1T?
    -AT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    Androgenic side effects, from how it was explained to me via PA, purely pertain to how the steroid effects other sex organs. Water retention via the androgen bonding to the kidney would not be an androgenic side per say; it would just be a side effect of the drug. Anyway, the term "androgenic side effect" is used so widely now days that I will just roll with it.

    I am not at all suggesting that this compound does not cause water retnention via estrogen converison. In the contrary, I believe that this indeed occurs. My argument here is the time frame --- I don't think it is feasible for M1,4 to convert to Dbol and then to methly estradiol in the amount of time I took it (12 hours) then put 3 pounds on me. Doesn't it just seem more likely that it caused sodium retention in the kidney by itself? Like I already said, had I been taking this compound for a few days, I think this is very likely and I would have water retention via estrogen. However, 12 hours...cmon? That or the diol itself aromatizes (did I just say that??? I am not so sure that it doesn't regardless of manufactures claims.) You talk about water retention via 17 methyl DHT. At this point the mechanism by which 1-test converts to methylDHT is not known. Moreover, the amount of which converts to methylDHT is also unknown. I can say though, in support of your claims, that it is a significant conversion as I can feel my prostate when I am on any 1-T product.

    Also, how do you know that M1,4 does not convert to MDHT and then causes water retention that way? BTW, what happens when 5-AR converts M1,4? Do you get M1T?
    -AT
    Yes I am aware of how Pat has a problem with the terminology of "adrogenic effect", but you and I know both know what people mean when they say "androgenic effects". I already has that disucussion with him. Its a pointless argument now unless you want to go on a crusade to correct all mistakes in terminology. In that case you can call someone on hepatoxicity because its really hepatotoxicity. The former isn't even in any medical dictionary. Now back to the point....

    I don't understand what you mean by time frame. Conversion takes place within nanoseconds. Its almost instantaneous. Ask Pat, he will tell you the same.


    Even though the pathway is unknown in 1-test, it still happens. And from many peoples reselts, seem to happen very much. I think the oringal text say it does happen to a pretty significant degree but I don't have that on hand. I could check as Chemo has it.

    As for how long it takes, here is a study in which water rentention was induced 180 minutes after E2 administration and 17 methyl E2 is much more potent than E2.

    Estrogen influences osmotic secretion of AVP and body water balance in postmenopausal women.

    Stachenfeld NS, DiPietro L, Palter SF, Nadel ER.

    John B. Pierce Laboratory, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA.


    "Water intake was similar between control and E2 (24 vs. 22 ml/kg), but by 180 min of drinking, urine output and free water clearance (CH2O) were reduced by 5.6 +/- 2.3 ml/kg and 2.6 +/- 2.0 ml/min, respectively (P < 0.05) after E2.

    How do I know it doesnt? I never said it didn't but its base has a very small conversion rate to DHT (if at all). Just because you methylate it doesn't mean the converison rate is increased, just the potetny of its metabolites. Boldenone and Dbol aromatize at the saem rate but Dbol's metabolite is much more potent causing the increased water retention.


    To me its simple. What causes much more water retnetion, 17 methyl E2 or 17 methyl DHT? Which is more likely to be present here given the chemical structure? What should one be concerned about mostly when taking this substance? I think everyone here knows the answer.

    What happens in your body specifically nobody knows. Hell I could gain 3lbs in 12 hours from eating. I don't understand why you keep harping on this point unless your bored or something.

    And there really isn't any manufacturer claims. It all comes from the same place. Its not like it a heavily marketed product yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
    However, 12 hours...cmon?
    -AT
    Take Dbol. See what happens. With way you react you might gain 5lbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Yes I am aware of how Pat has a problem with the terminology of "adrogenic effect", but you and I know both know what people mean when they say "androgenic effects". I already has that disucussion with him. Its a pointless argument now unless you want to go on a crusade to correct all mistakes in terminology. In that case you can call someone on hepatoxicity because its really hepatotoxicity. The former isn't even in any medical dictionary. Now back to the point....

    I don't understand what you mean by time frame. Conversion takes place within nanoseconds. Its almost instantaneous. Ask Pat, he will tell you the same.


    Even though the pathway is unknown in 1-test, it still happens. And from many peoples reselts, seem to happen very much. I think the oringal text say it does happen to a pretty significant degree but I don't have that on hand. I could check as Chemo has it.

    As for how long it takes, here is a study in which water rentention was induced 180 minutes after E2 administration and 17 methyl E2 is much more potent than E2.

    Estrogen influences osmotic secretion of AVP and body water balance in postmenopausal women.

    Stachenfeld NS, DiPietro L, Palter SF, Nadel ER.

    John B. Pierce Laboratory, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06519, USA.


    "Water intake was similar between control and E2 (24 vs. 22 ml/kg), but by 180 min of drinking, urine output and free water clearance (CH2O) were reduced by 5.6 +/- 2.3 ml/kg and 2.6 +/- 2.0 ml/min, respectively (P < 0.05) after E2.

    How do I know it doesnt? I never said it didn't but its base has a very small conversion rate to DHT (if at all). Just because you methylate it doesn't mean the converison rate is increased, just the potetny of its metabolites. Boldenone and Dbol aromatize at the saem rate but Dbol's metabolite is much more potent causing the increased water retention.


    To me its simple. What causes much more water retnetion, 17 methyl E2 or 17 methyl DHT? Which is more likely to be present here given the chemical structure? What should one be concerned about mostly when taking this substance? I think everyone here knows the answer.

    What happens in your body specifically nobody knows. Hell I could gain 3lbs in 12 hours from eating. I don't understand why you keep harping on this point unless your bored or something.

    And there really isn't any manufacturer claims. It all comes from the same place. Its not like it a heavily marketed product yet.
    Its just an informative debate - that's all. So what would happen to M1,4 when it reacts with 5-AR? I was wrong - I should have said, would you get M1-AD? That's a little crazy...
    -AT
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    I have no clue. You would to have ask Pat or Chemo that one. That is not my area of expertise.


    I guess its a debate. IMO its more brainstorming than anything. What your stating could discussed with all hormones to a degree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    you barely react to anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by theprolangtum
    Tragically this is very true.
    Wouldn't this suggest that theprolangtum would get less sides?

    Keep seeing people writing "Pro's not having any real sides" and thinking this is evidence of something being safe.

    Traps
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    Take his doses and divide by two for a sane, normal human being.

    I, too, am cursed by a bit of a non-responder problem, but not as much as Pro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTrap
    Wouldn't this suggest that theprolangtum would get less sides?

    Keep seeing people writing "Pro's not having any real sides" and thinking this is evidence of something being safe.

    Traps
    Maybe, maybe not. How thats for being conclusive

    With methydienolone there really is no basic for comparison. However we can compare M1,4 with other hormones as to what should happen, but even that isn't always true...Most of these are very loose guidelines and should never be taken as fact. Its FAR from it.
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