- 01-29-2004, 07:53 PM
This is my 4th day of dosing nolva at 40mg/day. I've worked out twice, Day 1 and Day 2, both workouts were killer, set new PR's in bench (day 1) and Deadlift (day 2, 385X9 ), and no lower back pain while deadlifting.
Back to the task at hand. Testosterone 18.30 ng/dl; LH 0.00 mIU/ml; FSH 0.00 mIU/ml; Estradiol 7.70 pg/ml; Prolactin 11.07 ng/ml; Progesterone 0.51 ng/ml; Cortisol 21.63/ug/dl; NOW FOR THE INTERESTING PART. AST 93 IU/L; ALT 131 IU/L; LD 219 IU/L; ALB 3.6 g/dl; TBIL 1.1 mg/dl; DBIL 0.2 mg/dl; ALP 62 IU/L; GGT 11IU/L; CK 681 IU/L; Cholesterol 93 mg/dl; HDL 6.3 mg/dl
So my liver enzymes actually went up, a lot. WTF???
Another thing that's weird, my sex drive is through the roof. I've been seeing this chick lately, lucky for me she's a trooper. I've been spitting out rockets too. Also I've never had a wet dream in my life, not when I was 13, nada. Day 2 off cycle I wake up and "Oh ****!". It was like no sex for a week/on massive amounts of clomid/Pornstar nut. Sorry if I grossed anybody out, but I don't know what's going on with me.
- 01-29-2004, 09:47 PM
What brand Nolva are you taking? I'm on my 9th day of 40mg Nolva(PN) and I have no sex drive. I did 4 weeks M1T alone, down 6lbs so far. Any thing else you are taking PCT? I'm taking with the Nolva, ZMA, NAC, Milk Thistle and Swole V2, also 300mg 6OXO in the morning(had a bottle left over from 1AD cycle)
- 01-29-2004, 09:58 PM
Lion Nutrition nolva. Also using lots of flax oil but I use that constantly, on cycle, off cycle. Come to think of it I need to buy some zinc and magnesium. My sex drive was pretty decent on M1T, but only if I took some ephedrine or something, otherwise I didn't want to do anything but lay around the house. M1T definitely gave me super-dick though, and it seems I still have it. Maybe the M1T hasn't totally cleared my system yet??? I really don't know what to think anymore. This PCT should be interesting.
Okay, I'm dying.
AST 139; ALT 191; LD 321; TBIL 1.1; DBIL 0.2; ALP 67; GGT 13; ALB 4.4; Cholesterol 74; HDL 6.7; Testosterone 26.03; Cortisol 16.32; Estradiol 5.88; LH 0.07; FSH 0.31; Prolactin 5.75; Progesterone 0.49; PSA 0.26
Why the **** are my liver enzymes skyrocketing 5 days post cycle when they pretty much held steady over the course of the entire 35 day cycle?
Bobo if you have any PubMed studies like "Liver continuing to get more and more ****ed up after cessation of oral methylated steroids" please post.
This is the first time I've been scared about this ****.
Nope, sorry don't have that one
I'm not sure why your levels are skyrocketing. I'll have to think about this one.
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Not sure how relevant this all is, but I had heard nolva can be hard on the liver.
Found these on pubmed. Hopefully someone with a bio background can add further light.
Unrecognized hepatic steatosis and non-alcoholic steatohepatitis in adjuvant tamoxifen for breast cancer patients.
Murata Y, Ogawa Y, Saibara T, Nishioka A, Fujiwara Y, Fukumoto M, Inomata T, Enzan H, Onishi S, Yoshida S.
Department of Radiology, Kochi Medical School, Oko-cho, Nankoku 783-8505, Japan. firstname.lastname@example.org
Adjuvant tamoxifen has become the treatment of choice against estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer. Adverse effects are rarely observed and since symptoms of hepatic steatosis, non-alcoholic steatohepatitis and cirrhosis are usually negligible, such effects are not well characterized despite large cohort studies of adjuvant tamoxifen. This issue remains to be systematically studied. The present study consisted of 136 breast cancer patients treated with or without tamoxifen. Patients had laboratory tests once each month and underwent abdominal computed tomography (CT) annually for 5 years. The extent of hepatic steatosis was assessed by CT as the liver/spleen ratio. While receiving adjuvant tamoxifen, 40 of 105 patients developed hepatic steatosis (liver/spleen ratio <0.9) without obvious changes in body mass index. Twenty-one had a liver spleen ratio of <0.5, whereas none of the 31 patients treated without tamoxifen had a ratio <0.9 or <0.5 (p<0.0001 and p<0.0001, respectively). Hepatic steatosis was recognized in 35 of the 40 patients within the first 2 years of receiving adjuvant tamoxifen and 21 of the 40 had increased transaminase levels. Liver biopsy revealed NASH in 6 of 7 patients among the 21 with a liver/spleen ratio of <0.5. A subset of individuals given adjuvant tamoxifen developed progressive hepatic steatosis without significant changes in the body mass index. We suggest a liver/spleen ratio of <0.5 as a criterion upon which liver biopsy should be recommended since NASH frequently occurred in such patients.
PMID: 11032933 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Follow-up CT findings of tamoxifen-induced non-alcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH) of breast cancer patients treated with bezafibrate.
Ogawa Y, Murata Y, Saibara T, Nishioka A, Kariya S, Yoshida S.
Department of Radiology, Kochi Medical School, Kochi-Prefecture 783-8505, Japan. email@example.com
One-third of the breast cancer patients who underwent tamoxifen intake showed less than 0.9 of their liver/spleen CT (computed tomography) ratio on their annual CT study, and were diagnosed as having fatty liver (hepatic steatosis). Among them, patients who showed a lower liver/spleen CT ratio of less than 0.5 were recommended to undergo needle biopsy of the liver in order to obtain histopathological confirmation of non-alcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH), with 15 patients undergoing needle biopsy of the liver. As a result, 14 out of the 15 patients were diagnosed as having NASH, and these patients were additionally administered bezafibrate in order to prevent possible progressive changes of NASH into liver cirrhosis. In this study, we show the changes of follow-up CT findings of 6 patients with histopathologically-proven NASH who continued to undergo bezafibrate intake after the diagnosis of NASH. Two patients showed almost complete improvement as indicated by the liver/spleen CT ratio several months after completion of a tamoxifen intake of 5 years, and another 3 showed partial improvement on their liver/spleen CT ratio by bezafibrate intake in spite of continuing tamoxifen intake. Another patient with diabetes mellitus (type II) showed a continually decreasing liver/spleen CT ratio during adjuvant tamoxifen in spite of bezafibrate intake. Therefore, we concluded that the progression of NASH could be prevented by bezafibrate without any interruption of adjuvant tamoxifen treatment. For patients with diabetes mellitus, critical follow-up using CT study and laboratory tests is considered essential.
Tamoxifen-induced cirrhotic process.
Kotiloglu G, Aki ZS, Ozyilkan O, Kutlay L.
Department of Internal Medicine, Bayindir Medical Center, Sogutozu/Ankara, Turkey
It may be the result of your CA trip and your alcohol/substance intake while on M1T. If I understand the notation below correctly, from the American Liver Association, a chemical injury may show some time after the initial exposure. The section was pertaining to liver disease, but it may have some relivance.
"How is the Diagnosis of Chemical Liver Injury Made?
Usually it must be based on circumstantial evidence, as there are no specific tests. In any patient with liver disease, close attention needs to be given to the drugs used and the environmental and occupational exposures. No chemical is too trivial to be considered. Timing may be helpful, since many forms of chemical liver injury will occur days to weeks after the first exposure. However, there are exceptions in which a drug is taken for many months before liver injury or exposure to the toxic substance. In most cases, there will be rapid improvement in days or weeks after removal of the chemical."
My guess is if this is the case you may show elevated enzyme level for a period until your liver 'catches back up' and normalizes.
Very good info to have, Scottyo.Originally Posted by Scottyo
I was still on Nolva (20mg) 20 days after I finished 3 weeks of M1T (10mg per day), and had my bloodwork done my All my liver values were normal.
So either its not the nolva, or yours will go down by day 20.
I also kept getting stronger for the first week of PCT, which made me think maybe there was some M1T (or anabolic metabolites) hanging around.
I hit some PRs on my first week PCT after my cycle of 1-test/4ad/m-1-t as well. 2nd week felt crap. Third week got bad cold.
AST 136; ALT 203; LD 237; TBIL 1.4, DBIL 0.3; Cholesterol 77; HDL 15.5 ; ALP 74; GGT 15; ALB 4.3; Testosterone 22.39; LH 0.97; FSH 0.28; Progesterone 0.40; Prolactin 9.74; PSA 0.24 Cortisol and Estradiol weren't run
I bought some milk thistle (80% symilarin), vitex, and zinc yesterday. Does anybody know whether to take the milk thistle with food or empty stomach?
I don't think it matters.Originally Posted by supersoldier
I took ALA, (1200-1800mg/day) NAC (100-1500mg/day), & high quality symilarin (3 175mg extract/day) all thoughout my cycle, as well as post cycle in lesser amounts. Maybe that helped my liver values, or maybe they would have returned to normal in the 20 days anyway. I would take massive doses of all three if I were you.
I didn't know before this thread that Nolva can cause fatty liver and elevated liver enzymes, kinda disturbing...
I don't know what they were on cycle, (assume high) but they were normal 20 days into PCT when I had my bloodwork done.Originally Posted by 2gcorey
I get my bloodwork done every 6 months due to medical conditons. I try not to get it done while on cycle so as not to freak out my doctor.
i just got mine done today, results tomorrow. i got a huge lecture when i told her what i was taking. i shoulda just done it pct. greenguy do you use nolva and still come up normal 20 days pct? if so are you on nolva when you get the bloodwork done?
Really don't know why liver values would climb so much post cycle but it may be the Nolva. Drinking like a ****ing fish doesn't help either I wish there was a better alternative to Nolva out there..the **** scares me more and more.
My theory about the increased sex drive and continued workout performance Post Cycle is that certain, unknown metabolites of M1T, and by products of these metabolites get elevated or are left without the counteraction of M1T after the cycle is over.
Hypothetically, methyl-DHT or some such compound is produced while on cycle but the effects of M1T mask or inhibit it. Numerous people, including myself experienced wieght and strength gain for a few days PC and then poof! I was in the PC pooper, feeling like crap for a week or so until natural test levels came up.
Also a compound like methyl-DHT could explain the incredibly rapid body comp changes experienced on M1T which is why I hypothesize that M1T might have some indirect anti-e ability. Purely hypothetical on my part. I don't wish to imply I have any real insight on the matter just observations.
All purely hypothetical but it makes ya go Hmmm.
Okay, I don't think it's the nolva causing it. I did a PCT thread for my cycle after a T1-Pro cycle that you may recall, using nolva, and my liver enzymes weren't really ****ed up at all. I think AST was ever so slightly high, but nowhere close to 136-139. Everything else was normal.
Also I don't drink regularly. I just went 3 months without drinking at all, then I drank New Year's Eve, on my 21st birthday, and pretty much for a week straight in Cali I haven't drank since, and probably won't until Dave Matthews Band's summer tour
On a side note, a friend of mine who is running Test Enth and Deca had me run labs for him, and everything was perfectly normal, save LH which was 0.00 but that's a given. His cholesterol was pretty high (194) and his HDL was low (20ish), but nowhere near my completely ****ed up results.
I definitely won't be doing too many more methyl only cycles. I'm gonna beta-test methyl-dien for sldge as soon as my lab results look normal, but after that it's on to darts. I think methyls should be used as a kicker to a test cycle (or similar) at a low dose, not as a stand alone cycle. It was always stated by anybody that knows anything about roids that an oral only cycle is a bad idea. Then M1T came out and I guess we all lost our minds.
I second that, I still have about 70 more tabs of my m1t that I might sell to a friend and replace it with 1-test cyp. Orals... never again...Originally Posted by supersoldier
Urine is the same as always. Usually clearish, neon yellow after taking my multi vitamin, and more yellow if I'm not as hydrated as I usually am, like when I wake up.Originally Posted by 2gcorey
AST 105; ALT 175; LD 248; TBIL 1.3; DBIL 0.3; GGT 16; ALP 72; ALB 4.1; CK 1500; Cholesterol 62; HDL 17.0; Testosterone 37.65; Estradiol 5.59; LH 1.67; FSH 0.32; Cortisol 6.33; Prolactin 5.61; Progesterone 0.32; PSA 0.23
My workout today was garbage. I did chest, and almost every set was down from last week. Did abs too and strength was good. May be because I had 24hr. duty yesterday and then slept only 7hrs.
Well it seems that my LH is back and rising, but I still don't have any testosterone worth mentioning. Also liver enzymes are down a decent amount from yesterday
I agree with the low dose theory. I think M1T has a role to play when using test or high amounts of 4AD..but I'm thinking 5 to 10 mg for most people is sufficient.
Good to see your levels are recovering even after sleep deprevation.
This is normal. LH always repsonds quickly with testosterone following in the following weeks (usually atrophy is reversed at this time too). This is why HCG is so useful because it makes the testes more responsive to LH and basically forces Leydig cells to produce testosterone (whether your on OR off)Originally Posted by supersoldier
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Worked out today and PR'd my deadlift again (405X8 ). Reps were perfect. The most I ever deadlifted was 405X1, that was about a month and a half ago. I've lost a few pounds but I think it's mainly water or fat, despite eating everything in sight (still clean, though).
I'm starting to feel a little better overall. Definitely better than on cycle and much better than the past few days. The ****ers at work stuck me on dayshift tomorrow, so I'll run some more tests then (Day 10).
HCG definitely seems like a great idea to run through all cycles from now on. Bobo pointed me to cuttingedgemuscle, and there's a great thread over there about the use of HCG while on. I'll probably use allthingsmale if I can't find a source.
Day 10: ALT 152; AST 95; LD 231; TBIL 1.3; DBIL 0.3; ALP 90; GGT 15; ALB 4.1; Testosterone 68.14; Cortisol 11.40; LH 1.93; FSH 0.00; Estradiol 15.01; Prolactin 9.44; Progesterone 0.62; Cholesterol 61; HDL 18.9
Day 12: ALT 135; AST 105; LD 237; TBIL 1.2; DBIL 0.3; ALP 76; GGT 15; Cholesterol 64; HDL 21.7; CK 2008; Testosterone 117.36; Cortisol 16.73; Estradiol 15.35; LH 6.60; FSH 0.78; Progesterone 0.62; Prolactin 6.73
ALT is down a bit, Testosterone is up . I'm suprised it's not higher than that. I actually feel fine today without caffeine and/or ephedrine, and my balls feel a whole lot bigger I've been dosing clomid at 50mg for the past 3 days, nolva still at 40mg. Also I didn't take nolva for 2 days in the beginning of the week because I ran out (senses the flames coming ), so I dosed 1.25 mg of Letro for those two days. Thanks to Lion Nutrition for getting my Nolva and Clomid here QUICK
Last edited by supersoldier; 02-06-2004 at 09:26 PM.
Always keep Nolva on hand bla bla bla..JK.
Looking good man. I'm starting to wonder about the ultra low cholesterol levels in relation to the tapering off of gains on M1T. Hmmmmmm.
Bobo, do you think there could be a connection between crashing cholesterol and test levels and the rapid tapering off of gains? Might make a good science project..force feed an M1T user eggs, coconut, bacon and avocados and see what happens lol.
Definetly could be, figuring testosterone originates from cholesterol.Originally Posted by bioman
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AST 89; ALt 121, LD 209; Cholesterol 69; HDL 21.6; Testosterone 153.74; Estradiol 13.73; LH 8.43 (any day now testosterone should be sky high ); FSH 1.47; Cortisol 14.98; Prolactin 7.56; Progesterone 0.69
I have been thinking about the cholesterol thing lately too. Hmmmmmm... maybe someone should make a pure cholesterol supplement, or maybe someone does. Does anyone make an egg yolk powder? I know that Syntrax Isomatrix supposedly uses it as part of the blend.
I've been taking clomid for the past 5 days now. I've taken it before (LR), this one is from Lion, and I've never experienced any emotional sides before. Two nights ago I went to bed, fell asleep for about 20 minutes or so, and woke up and my heart was beating really hard and really fast, and I felt like I was having an emotional breakdown . I was really hot too, like running a fever hot, and I was like this and couldn't sleep for the next 3 hours. I think the LR stuff was probably garbage, it tasted like pure alcohol anyway, and the lion stuff is really, really thick. I think I'll discontinue the clomid ASAP and just continue with nolva. I'm gonna start tapering down the nolva when my testosterone hits the 500ng/dl mark.
Also I think I'll update twice a week for now, I think getting stuck everyday is ****ing up my veins. It looks like someone turned down the pressure in my waterhoses
maybe you have low cholesterol because M1T speeds up metabolism and increase nutritional intake to increase fuel for the muscle........just my stupid theory
Originally Posted by supersoldier
Sounds like a hormonally induced anxiety attack.. My wife gets them all the time. Think I'll stick with Nolva
The cholesterol observation came even before your thread. I was pondering why M1T would elicit such awesome gains then just stop abruptly. I figured the body must be running out of "something" that it needs to build tissue. While a lack of natural test would certainly be suspect it gets ruled out when you consider there's people pinning test base or using gobs of 4AD with M1T and seeing the same results.
When we consider the fact that cholesterol levels plunge after day 7 or so it seems like we may have a connection. If memory serves me, cholesterol is not only a precursor to test et al but is a constituent of cell membranes, tissues, skin, ligaments et cetera. You can eat all the protein in the world but without cholesterol acting as the "mortar" for the amino bricks..ya got nothin'.
I'm in the last week of a LGP OHT cycle. I was planning on rounding it out with several days of M1T. I'll go heavy on the eggs and garlic pills and see what happens..albeit this is a poor experiment. Going to stink my poor wife out
AST 67 ; ALT 97 ; LD 197 ; Cholesterol 63; HDL 25.9 ; Testosterone 179.68; Cortisol 9.79; Estradiol 14.32; LH 10.07 ; FSH 1.51; Prolactin 6.54; Progesterone 0.30
Liver enzymes are almost normal, I'd say about another week. My HDL is going up rapidly, but my total cholesterol is still very low. Hmmm.... LH is pretty damn high, I'm waiting for my testosterone to jump a few hundred ng/dl, any day I hope.
IF YOU ARE A NEWBIE, DO NOT POST YOUR PERSONAL QUESTIONS OR ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT PERTAIN TO THIS THREAD.
All educated comments are welcome and appreciated.
you ast,alt is on the down fast thats good ,but ld like to see a comparison btween drinkin or taking m1t which one is worse. example: does 2 weeks of m1t compare to two weeks of partying if so liver values on a lot of people have been as high and dont even know it. also my thoght on your natty test this is good to know, how rapidly test levels rise.
If you think I EVER said to do no PCT after M1T you are GREATLY mistaken. That would be ****ing stupid advise. And there are lots of threads out there to ask your own personal questions, or maybe start a new thread, or SEARCH. I'm not a mod, but I think I put a lot of valuable information out there for everybody, being that I work in a lab and many of us use the same experimental ph's. And I had a thread called This is your liver..., which ended up being 5 or 6 pages long, and about a page and a half (at least) was just people asking dumb questions, a lot of which would have been answered just by reading the whole thread. So when a lot of people are reading my thread and want to know how long it takes for liver enzymes to go down and how long HPTA recovery takes, and they KNOW ALREADY that nolva is superior to clomid for PCT, and if they did use clomid they'd already know what dose to use, because they SEARCHED, they don't want to read in the same thread about "Is this enough clomid for my PCT?" from somebody who is unknown.Originally Posted by college_lifter2
alright im glad thats over, now supesldr have you been doing blood work again if so i am interested in you numbers , soas to try and equate how fast my liver val's are dropping and test is riseing oh and cholesterol...
I haven't seen such a great, informative thread at ANY boards ever. It's great to view labwork of someone else to give me some piece of mind as to where I should stand during and after a cycle. Although no one is the same, it's good to have a general idea of how things should be.
AST 64; ALT 76; LDH 228; Cholesterol 67; HDL 30.5; Testosterone 262.43; Cortisol 22.09; LH 13.25; FSH 1.97; Estradiol 7.73; Prolactin 15.05; Progesterone 0.47
I might want to add that I drank 4 beers two nights ago. I barely caught a buzz.
As a reference, Day 16 of PCT after an 8 week cycle of T1-pro I was at 246.04 for Testosterone and 6.72 for LH. Day 21 was 367.96 Testosterone and 7.28 LH.Expected to be low but HOLY...
Does anybody else find it weird that my LH is almost double that of the Day 21 PCT T1-Pro cycle yet my testosterone is a lot lower? Bobo?
Also WTF is up with my cholesterol??? HDL is almost healthy now but total cholesterol is still very low.
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