For your consideration: A sane, conservative approach to Methyl 1-test Cycling

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    For your consideration: A sane, conservative approach to Methyl 1-test Cycling


    I am certain that I join many others in frustration surrounding methylated PH/PS (Methyl 1-test in particular) cycles and questions. I've been thinking quite a bit about a sane, conservative cycling alternative to counter all of the questions such as, "How many 2 on 2 off cycles can I run in a row?"

    The first thing that jumped in my mind for short cycling was MuscleTrainee's "Initial thoughts on short cycling" thread at Anabolic Extreme. He is a proponent of short 2, 3, and 4 week cycles with fast acting injectibles and methylated orals/injectibles followed by standard PCT protocol and then a minimum 2 weeks of being clean. Since the methylated PH/PS, transdermal PH/PS, and 4-AD prop are fast acting PH/PS I was thinking this could be the basis for a sane cycling regiment.

    2 Week Cycle:
    • Days 1-14: Methyl 1-test - as low as possible dose that will still illicit gains
    • Days 1-14: 4-AD - as low as possible dose that will still illicit gains and counter M1T sides(166.67 mg - 666.67 mg transdermal or 750+ mg injectible propionate).
    • Days 15-25: 40 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 26-30: 20 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 31-35: 10 mg of Nolvadex or 50 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 35-49 (even better would be day 63): 100% clean. That means zero anabolics, androgenics, anti-estrogens, or SERMs.
    • Assess cycle and repeat if desired.


    3 Week Cycle:
    • Days 1-21: Methyl 1-test - as low as possible dose that will still illicit gains
    • Days 1-21: 4-AD - as low as possible dose that will still illicit gains and counter M1T sides(166.67 mg - 666.67 mg transdermal or 750+ mg injectible propionate).
    • Days 22-32: 40 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 33-37: 20 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 38-42: 10 mg of Nolvadex or 50 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 43-56 (even better would be day 70): 100% clean. That means zero anabolics, androgenics, anti-estrogens, or SERMs.
    • Assess cycle and repeat if desired.


    4 Week Cycle:
    • Days 1-28: Methyl 1-test - as low as possible dose that will still illicit gains
    • Days 1-28: 4-AD - as low as possible dose that will still illicit gains and counter M1T sides(166.67 mg - 666.67 mg transdermal or 750+ mg injectible propionate).
    • Days 29-41: 40 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 42-46: 30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 47-51: 20 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 52-56: 10 mg of Nolvadex or 50 mg of Clomid (use SERMs only)
    • Days 57-70 (even better would be day 84): 100% clean. That means zero anabolics, androgenics, anti-estrogens, or SERMs.
    • Assess cycle and repeat if desired.


    Benefits:
    • Athlete would always have off time greater than on time
    • The tapering of SERMs and 100% clean time would allow sufficient time to recover.
    • The 100% clean time would allow athlete to train naturally with the new muscle, and some time to get their bodies used to adding weight or reps each workout without hormonal assistance.
    • The 100% clean time would allow time to re-establish caloric intake necessary to keep making gains.
    • Bodybuilding is a sport for life, and continuous 2 on, 2 off cycling is not a lifetime approach to the sport.


    I gave Chemo & Bobo a preview of my thoughts, and after a few alterations I am anxious to hear everyone's thoughts.

    ~Todd

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    I think this is a good approach.

    However, I see one potential problem.
    Adding weight too quickly can often result in loss of weight quickly. This can be adjusted thru diet but I think it is difficult to completely avoid. Longer cycle (for me at least) result in more sustainable gains even though the gains may be slower.
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    Quick sanity check - 166.67 mg - 666.67 mg transdermal each day = 8 squirts of T4 brand 4-AD each day, correct?

    M
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    Looks like a solid sane safe approach, well thought and layed out. On the topic of a two week cycle I think one can run two two weekers(2on 2off 2on 2off) with pct on off weeks on the order of say 40mg Nolva week one, 20mg week two then follow with your protocol and still have good recovery. Im allways for more off time but I think It would be hard for me personally to go two on then eight off. Then again if I can gain between 10-15lbs quality mass in the time on and keep a majority of it then maybe folks should consider it. I don't know about the rest of you but If in ten weeks time I can gain say 10lbs lbm and be fully restored and recovered and ready to go again I think the majority who chose not to use real gear would be very happy with that. Actually your post has really made me think about what I realistically expect from using these new strong compounds on a long term basis. I think alot of us including me have gotten so excited with the fast impressive gains of M1T, not seeing anything like this before for those of us who only use prohormones/prosteroids that it's easy to get carried away in our planning of cycles. I know I've been excited with the possibility of breaking through certain weight plautues that I thought never were possible without real gear and pinning as I got the greatest results of my life with my first two M1T cycles. It's a great topic for discussion especially since many have stocked up years of these compounds so long term use seems inevitable. Talk amongst yourselves.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark
    Quick sanity check - 166.67 mg - 666.67 mg transdermal each day = 8 squirts of T4 brand 4-AD each day, correct?

    M
    Please note that I did say, "as low as possible dose that will still illicit gains and counter M1T sides" right before giving a suggested range of doses. Below is my thought process on the range:

    166.67 mg is based on putting 5 g in the build your own transdermal at PowerNutrition, and doing 2 squirts per day.

    250 mg is based on putting 7.5 g in the build your own transdermal at PowerNutrition, and doing 2 squirts per day.

    333.33 mg is based on putting 10 g in the build your own transdermal at PowerNutrition, and doing 2 squirts per day.

    500 mg is based on putting 7.5 g in the build your own transdermal at PowerNutrition, and doing 4 squirts per day.

    666.67 mg is based on putting 10 g in the build your own transdermal at PowerNutrition, and doing 4 squirts per day. Your math on putting 5 g in the build your own transdermal at PowerNutrition and doing 8 squirts per day would work too, but that's not as cost effective.

    ~Todd
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    Tator, I applaud what you've done.

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    Thanks alot Todd
    especially the reply to Marks question, i was wondering the same.
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    Todd,

    Thanks for the clarification - sorry for hijacking with the math question. Excellent post, especially in a field where some choice to ignore warnings (read - facts), having a sane approach outlined clearly every so often is refreshing, and cause for reflection.

    M
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    Kudos Todd!

    I'm a strong proponent of low doses and short cycles for M1T. I've fooled around with doses enough now to be able to say, for myself at least, that more is not better. 5mg ed yielded the same as 10 and even 15 mg ed. The addition of 4 AD didn't seem to accelerate gains for me it simply made life a little easier on M1T.

    The only part of the recommendation I haven't followed as closely is the time off. I definitely agree that the time off needs to be as long as you've suggested for both safety's sake and to allow the HPTA to resensitize.

    My cycles were basically 2 on and 3-4 off. I don't "think" I harmed my health so much but I do know the gains were less and less on each subsequent cycle which signals desensitization and the warnings that come with that.
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    Great Post! I like your thinking, & I fully agree about minimal dosing. I think this should be a sticky. Now there is somewhere to point all the 20 year old newbies who come on here & ask whether they should start with 20mg or 30mg M1t for 6 weeks with 2 weeks of 6-oxo for pct.
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    6 OXO is for "light" prohormone use only-if even that. I think its over-hyped PA crap myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tatortodd
    Benefits:
    • Athlete would always have off time greater than on time
    • The tapering of SERMs and 100% clean time would allow sufficient time to recover.
    • The 100% clean time would allow athlete to train naturally with the new muscle, and some time to get their bodies used to adding weight or reps each workout without hormonal assistance.
    • The 100% clean time would allow time to re-establish caloric intake necessary to keep making gains.
    • Bodybuilding is a sport for life, and continuous 2 on, 2 off cycling is not a lifetime approach to the sport.



    ~Todd
    Athlete would always have off time greater than on time
    This is a negative, as the athlete would be making less gains.

    The tapering of SERMs and 100% clean time would allow sufficient time to recover. What and where is your proof of this?

    The 100% clean time would allow athlete to train naturally with the new muscle, and some time to get their bodies used to adding weight or reps each workout without hormonal assistance. Again, I see how this is conservative, but it is nowhere near a "benefit" as far as seeing muscle mass gains.

    Bodybuilding is a sport for life, and continuous 2 on, 2 off cycling is not a lifetime approach to the sport. Yes, continuous two weeks on two off cycling is moronic, if one were to do that they should be on full time. However, I do not believe anyone who really cares about their natural testosterone levels is doing continuous cycles like this without periods of recovery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex_banana-eater
    Athlete would always have off time greater than on time
    This is a negative, as the athlete would be making less gains.

    The tapering of SERMs and 100% clean time would allow sufficient time to recover. What and where is your proof of this?

    The 100% clean time would allow athlete to train naturally with the new muscle, and some time to get their bodies used to adding weight or reps each workout without hormonal assistance. Again, I see how this is conservative, but it is nowhere near a "benefit" as far as seeing muscle mass gains.

    Bodybuilding is a sport for life, and continuous 2 on, 2 off cycling is not a lifetime approach to the sport. Yes, continuous two weeks on two off cycling is moronic, if one were to do that they should be on full time. However, I do not believe anyone who really cares about their natural testosterone levels is doing continuous cycles like this without periods of recovery.
    1. But he would have better recovery. Thats the point. We're not looking for maximum gains. We're looking for safe and conservative use of potentially hazordous androgens while still achieveing very moderate and keepable gains, not to mention the health benefits.

    2. Experience. Also the tapering of SERMS allows for a more gradual rise in circulating estrogen rather than fully stopping as maximum dosge which could cause a negative rebound. Based on Nandi's and SWALES beliefs and also several Clomid studies.

    3. Explain why? Once again this is for a more healthier way of androgen uses and not for maximum gains. To those seeking better recovery, it is a benefit.

    4. Consdiering what we see around here lately, yes they would. This thread serves a purpose to those less experienced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. But he would have better recovery. Thats the point. We're not looking for maximum gains. We're looking for safe and conservative use of potentially hazordous androgens while still achieveing very moderate and keepable gains, not to mention the health benefits.

    This has nothing to do with what he claimed though in the first benefit. All he said is that athlete would have more time off than time on, which isn't always optimal.

    2. Experience. Also the tapering of SERMS allows for a more gradual rise in circulating estrogen rather than fully stopping as maximum dosge which could cause a negative rebound. Based on Nandi's and SWALES beliefs and also several Clomid studies.
    Okay, you show me the clomid studies using his dosages and lengths.

    3. Explain why? Once again this is for a more healthier way of androgen uses and not for maximum gains. To those seeking better recovery, it is a benefit.

    Here's the thing though, I am not getting the impression at all that this method is the best way for better recovery. Infact it isn't, since his method does not employ any use of HCG at all. The person could be back juicing in much less time and seeing REAL benefits quicker.

    4. Consdiering what we see around here lately, yes they would. This thread serves a purpose to those less experienced.
    God help us
    .
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    1. What he claimed? It was based on another persons beliefs on short cycles and whats needed for recovery.

    2. Using the exact doses? They don't exist but many do that show recovery can be much longer and that a sudden stop in SERMS can cause hypogonadism.

    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse
    Robert S. Tan M.D., , a and Deepa Vasudevan M.D.a a Programs in Geriatrics and Andrology, Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas, USA
    Received 19 February 2002; accepted 15 May 2002. ; Available online 7 January 2003.

    3. Not everyone has acccess to HCG. Of course that would be the best but this is for the majoirty of people within the PH forum.

    4. Yes, God help us. Now people want to stack methyls. This thread is a good way to use whats available withouth stacking orals (methyls) and allowing for recovery for whch many people are not. They are just using the 2on 2off regiment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex_banana-eater
    Athlete would always have off time greater than on time
    This is a negative, as the athlete would be making less gains.
    Oh that would just be terrible! Taking a full year instead of 6-8 months to gain as much as could be gained in how long naturally?

    The tapering of SERMs and 100% clean time would allow sufficient time to recover. What and where is your proof of this?
    Well if the guy isn't recovered then he should have more time off. First you argue that it is bad to have more time off, now you are not sure it is enough time off.

    The 100% clean time would allow athlete to train naturally with the new muscle, and some time to get their bodies used to adding weight or reps each workout without hormonal assistance. Again, I see how this is conservative, but it is nowhere near a "benefit" as far as seeing muscle mass gains.
    You're right, it is ridiculous to think anybody should be able to make progress or maintain muscle naturally.

    Bodybuilding is a sport for life, and continuous 2 on, 2 off cycling is not a lifetime approach to the sport. Yes, continuous two weeks on two off cycling is moronic, if one were to do that they should be on full time. However, I do not believe anyone who really cares about their natural testosterone levels is doing continuous cycles like this without periods of recovery.
    A bunch of young guys are trying just what you say is moronic, trying to go from one cycle to the next as soon as possible. Why? Because they've got the attitude you just expressed:

    Quote Originally Posted by ex_banana-eater
    Athlete would always have off time greater than on time
    This is a negative, as the athlete would be making less gains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTrap
    Oh that would just be terrible! Taking a full year instead of 6-8 months to gain as much as could be gained in how long naturally?
    It takes much more time for muscle to be gained naturally


    Well if the guy isn't recovered then he should have more time off. First you argue that it is bad to have more time off, now you are not sure it is enough time off.I never said it is bad to have more time off, I argued that it is a benefit to have more muscle increases in less time while still preserving normal HPTA function. IE, going on for 6 weeks, going off for 6 weeks, and going back on again if levels returned to normal. If one's hormone levels have stabilized in less time than the time-frame outlined by tator Todd, it would be an option for them to use AAS again and gain more muscle than if they used his program.


    You're right, it is ridiculous to think anybody should be able to make progress or maintain muscle naturally. One makes more muscular gains while on AAS. They do not necesarrily have to take an ultra-conservative aproach to cycling if the health impact is negligably different.


    A bunch of young guys are trying just what you say is moronic, trying to go from one cycle to the next as soon as possible. Why? Because they've got the attitude you just expressed:
    I never expressed that attitude to do unsafe and idiotic cycling.
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    Bobo, for some reason I cannot access pubmed right now
    But I'll look up the study later. Still I know what the effects are and understand why you are defending it, I was just originally being nitpicky at his dosage times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex_banana-eater
    It takes much more time for muscle to be gained naturally
    Right, that's the point. Even with tatortodd's approach, they are still gaining way faster than they would naturally. No need to be greedy at the risk of health. Big deal if it takes a few more months to gain it all.

    I argued that it is a benefit to have more muscle increases in less time while still preserving normal HPTA function. IE, going on for 6 weeks, going off for 6 weeks, and going back on again if levels returned to normal.
    Go six weeks with these basically untested methyls? That's taking a big chance. Also most guys aren't testing to make sure their HPTA is back to normal. If somebody isn't testing, they need to give it more time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ex_banana-eater
    Bobo, for some reason I cannot access pubmed right now
    But I'll look up the study later. Still I know what the effects are and understand why you are defending it, I was just originally being nitpicky at his dosage times.

    Here's a chart form the full text. Basically it shows when CLomids is used test rises, but after he discontinued all doses his levels dropped back down again until CLomid was reintroduced. Moral of the story is, recovery can take much longer than expected when androges are used.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex_banana-eater
    Athlete would always have off time greater than on time
    This is a negative, as the athlete would be making less gains.

    The tapering of SERMs and 100% clean time would allow sufficient time to recover. What and where is your proof of this?

    The 100% clean time would allow athlete to train naturally with the new muscle, and some time to get their bodies used to adding weight or reps each workout without hormonal assistance. Again, I see how this is conservative, but it is nowhere near a "benefit" as far as seeing muscle mass gains.

    Bodybuilding is a sport for life, and continuous 2 on, 2 off cycling is not a lifetime approach to the sport. Yes, continuous two weeks on two off cycling is moronic, if one were to do that they should be on full time. However, I do not believe anyone who really cares about their natural testosterone levels is doing continuous cycles like this without periods of recovery.
    Bobo & MrTrap, thank you for addressing EBE's concerns while I was away for a few days.

    ~Todd
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    Tatortodd thank you for this very informative post,saved my lazy ass using the search option.
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    I definitely recommend reading Pogue's FAQ (with updates), and using the search option.

    At minimum, you need to search on:
    • Possible side affects to look out for
    • Ancillaries for cramping, blood pressure, liver protection, etc. since I haven't discussed them.


    ~Todd
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    Hey mods, how about making this a sticky?

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    Give me $20
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