Letro for PCT???

[supersoldier]

I'm starting PCT tomorrow, coming off a 5 week cycle of M1T. I have Nolva, and was origionally planning on running just that. I also have a bottle of Letro/Finasteride combo from Lion (thanks bro ) just staring at me. I don't plan on doing a cycle of test or any aromatizables in the near future, so I'm interested in running the Letro/Finasteride along with my nolva for PCT. Full labwork will be done either way. I know that Letro is mainly used while on, but I believe that I read that it raises testosterone, and I've heard little info and mixed reviews on using it for PCT. I figure for the first two weeks the Letro will raise my test and also make me feel a little better while the Nolva goes to work on my HPTA and makes my LH kick in. I really don't think the finasteride will have any effect, but I figure it won't hurt. The only way I don't want to use it is if Letro is androgenic/suppressive in any way. What are your opinions?

[buyb12]

Letro is not suppresive and it will rise IGF levels but I don't know if it will do what you want. I run it though PCt my self. Let see the data

[Dwight Schrute]

IMO using AI's during PCT isn't worth it because your lowering estrogen levels to subphysiological levels (unhealthy levels too) which in turn can cause a nasty rebound when all Anti-E's are stopped. SWALE advocates NEVER to use them post cycle for a host of reasons. The IGF-1 levels that are raised with Letro are really of no signifigance because they don't seem to have an effect on localized IGF-1 (most important for growth).

So to me, its a waste and won't help in raising testosterone any faster. Its the response of the testes to LH pulses which will signal natural production to occur, and Letro will not have an positrive effect on this. In this area more is not better as the body will only repsond so fast. Stacking Anti-e's won't have much of an effect. I tohught it would a year ago until I tried it, then read SWALES recommendations. TO me, recovery wasn't any faster. I have better recovery with blunting cortisol with the addition of Nolva than anything out there (didn't need HCG though).

[Dwight Schrute]

I figure for the first two weeks the Letro will raise my test and also make me feel a little better while the Nolva goes to work on my HPTA and makes my LH kick in.

It doens't work that way. LH pulses stimulate the Leydig Cells which then in turn produce testosterone. Without the rise in LH pulses, there will be no rise in testosterone. Its good your having lab work done but keep in mind that recovery is not measured in weeks. Most studies conduct lab work in these cases that last up to a year. Usually levels are taken the first 2 weeks, then a month, then 3,6,9 months after that.

Basically this is the results of a case study on recovery.

[supersoldier]

Bobo good advice, and I don't disagree with you in any way, but I've been meaning to try out Letro for awhile now. Lucky for me I have the lab handy. The last time I PCT'd I felt like **** for about 2 weeks, and it took about 2 weeks+ for my LH and test to start to normalize. I'm really hoping the Letro will make me feel better, and since it's not suppressive it would act like a sort of bridge, while running nolva the whole time. This is in theory. I'm thinking like 1.25mg Letro/40mg Nolva ED for 1 week, .5mg Letro/40mg Nolva ED for week 2, then drop the Letro and decrease nolva as I see fit according to my lab tests. What problems do you see me experiencing with this protocol?

[Dwight Schrute]

Estrogen rebound will be the biggest. Your lowering estrogen to a point that is below normal. Now usually the body will compensate in the long run when the dosage is discontinued. Thats why tests need to be contnued for months. As you see in the chart above, recovery from a suppressed state can take much longer and test levels can drop drastically when use is discontinued. THe inverse is true also. Testosterone levels usually go above normal then slowly fall back to normal after a cycle. Estrogen will do the same if you suppress it enough.

As for your bridge theory, I don't understand what your point is. You not feeling well is a result of an imbalance in hormones (probably) and I don't see how Letro can help this. It won't raise testosterone until LH pulses and the testes recover first, and thats what Nolva does better than any anti-e. Your basically adding another anti-e that won't help much, if at all and may cause esstrogen levels to peak much higher wehn PCT is complete. I would save it for another cycle (maybe 1,4 diol) but thats your choice.

THe problem with your lab test also is that its not showing true recovery. Its showing the effects of the drugs being used. As you can see in that study that can give you a false sense of recovery because as soon as the treatment was stopped, test levels fell back to below normal. Now of course that won't happen with everyone but its easily a possibility. What you need is a baseline fomr when no PCT is used to determine what is natually occiring and what is drug induced. Luckily there have been many studies already conducted on this subject that are available. The general consensus is that LH returns fairly quickly, wth or without SERMS, but the response of the testes is better when SERMS are used (best when HCG is used). Also testosterone levels usually peak higher than normal then slowly fall back down when succesfful PCT is done. So for your lab results to be conclusive as I stated earlier, it needs to be followed out for a much longer peroid of time. YOu will basically report what is already known, that Nolva helps you recover. I say use that lab of yours for other issues. If you need suggestions I have a million of them, especially with cortisol and SHBG post cycle!

But its up to you...I think for a thorough and complete test on PCT, this needs to be done for a minimum fo 3 months. And there really is no way of distinguishing what each is doing. Your profile would probably look similar to the study above with much less circulating estrogen.

[supersoldier]

The cortisol I can do, but my lab doesn't do the SHBG. I'm always open to suggestions though. Hit me with a PM if you want. I'd like to get the most out of all of this testing that I can for everyone. I hope you ment M1,4 diol I'm not gonna bother with normal ph's anymore. I wanna test some more of the methyls since there's so many questions about toxicity and what not, and I have the benefit of working in a lab, and from there move on to the real deal. Bring on the test prop

[Dwight Schrute]

Yes I meant the 1,4 diol OR dienolone. Either one would answer many questions. As for cortisol just keep a check on that with this upcoming PCT then if you do another one let me know. I'd like to see the difference a 7-oxo product would make when added. I've used it myself post cycle and loved it.

[scotty2]

Bob is dragging the CEM argument over here. Starting to sound like Nandi, bob.

[Dwight Schrute]

Thats not possible, I don't know that many big words