How long can you hold onto your gains?

[citystreets]

I have been reading more about people claiming that the gains they make off cycle are not permanent and will eventualy come off. Some are lucky enough to hold onto most of their gain after pct is over, but lose it a month or 2 down the road..

Im a very hard gainer even with excess calories. When i started working out i was a pathetic 120lbs. for 2 years i fought to get up to 145lbs. Im currently sitting 158lbs and feel i have hit a plateau. I have to eat like a mad man just to hold onto my meager 158lbs. So researching and finding peopel claiming that they lose their muscle gained down the road is kinda heart breaking, seeing that youll keep some side effects such as hair loss / gyno.

How many of you have held onto the mass you gained off cycle for a year or longer without additional cycling?

 

[UnrealMachine]

This depends entirely on your genetics, the so-called "genetic potential."

Some people are lucky, some aren't.

 

[mase1]

You can hold onto some of your gains. You just have to be aware if you put on 10 lbs during a short cycle most likely that is half muscle glycogen/water. Then dependent on your genetics, eating a surplus in calories, some will go towards fat. So if you hold 2 or 3 lbs a month after PCT then you have to determine if you are happy with that. The thing is you are never going to look or feel(muscle hardening) off cycle as you did on regardless if you kept all the weight and strength. At the end of the day you are going to see your potential of lbm gains in your first year of working out, if you do not put on serious size then. You most likely will yo-yo up on down from cycle to cycle. But you never know until you try!

 

[citystreets]

This depends entirely on your genetics, the so-called "genetic potential."

Some people are lucky, some aren't.

I thought the point of taking anabolics is to get past yoru genetic potential. This doesnt sit well with me as your body is set to handle a certain amount of muscle, It only makes sense that once the steroids have been discontinued the body will return to its genetic setting.

 

[citystreets]

makes me think twice about cycling, gains to sides..

 

[Zero V]

depends...this is why I question everyone saying get close ot your max before using a PH/DS....because once you go over your bodies functional threshold, its gona be sapped away once your off. But if your using it to get there, or to recomp it seems they would be permanent.

I dont mean if your 5'10 135, I mena if your 5'10 160-175 or 180. And not just by weight, but by body composition.

 

[Gator 87]

depends...this is why I question everyone saying get close ot your max before using a PH/DS....because once you go over your bodies functional threshold, its gona be sapped away once your off. But if your using it to get there, or to recomp it seems they would be permanent.

I dont mean if your 5'10 135, I mena if your 5'10 160-175 or 180. And not just by weight, but by body composition.

Why would you use steroids to accomplish something that you normally could, for less cost and without the potential health (and even legal) consequences?

Use steroids to keep gaining once you are at or near your genetic limit, so that you can actually keep accomplishing something through your hard work.

 

[Zero V]

Why would you use steroids to accomplish something that you normally could, for less cost and without the potential health (and even legal) consequences?

Use steroids to keep gaining once you are at or near your genetic limit, so that you can actually keep accomplishing something through your hard work.

Technically whats the point in anyone except for ones doing shows and contests to use anything? The point is...

steroid use is a novelty consumer trend. At least today...

Say a 160lb guy(my size) uses steroids to add 15 lbs in a month, then adds 2-3 in PCT, and adds 4 the month after that while using normal supplements. So lets say 22 lbs in 3 months, now at 182, and still growing. It shrinks the time span. And he can just keep on growing.

I am bulking naturally to 180ish(attempting 30 lbs in 60 days), I am just saying. If I get to the point of not growing no more naturally....then steroids are pointless I will just inflate and deflate. Have to eat way more than I am comfortable with on a longer bases just to hold onto the gains as they slowly rip away, and work harder just to slow the process of loss. Then begins the mentality of holding on to as much as you can until you are clear to run another cycle.... and thus begins a cycle that stays with many...

Once your near your max, the only reason I see use for a PH/DS personally is for a hard nice cut, or to recomp.

If you look at most people on this board they have went up and down, naturally or not naturally. You get sick, you lose alot of muscle. You have a nice long spell of healthiness, good eating, you put on a alot. You start getting stressed you lose some. You get a lil extra fat so you decide to cut, and lose some muscle. It is fluctuation.

All a steroid really is is a catalyst. Not the cherry on top, but the means to a goal.

I was at 155 awhile back, got a triple infection, lost all my strength, and weight, and put on some fat on the belly. I started my log at 150, I am 161-162. I will meet my goal of 180, maybe not in due time(since I also hurt my back) but soon enough. Knowing life though, I know there will be times I will see the 170's again, and maybe even the 160s.

I dont know why people act like this is street fighter and steroids are your finishing move or this is MK II and they are your *Fatality* final once the fights over...


Yes make sure you know what you are doing, you know how to train, and you have a decent diet down. Make sure you got the dedication, and you are at least half way to your genetic potential. But what good is it if all the hardest work is done and over? I mean maybe not every one wants to weigh over 200 lbs. But want the strength increase, recovery increase, and recomp effects of a specific product.

No one should technically touch the stuff. In a sense to reason someone who can do it properly to not to is hypocritical.

Also this is all IMO, and should probably be disregarded

 

[Gator 87]

Technically whats the point in anyone except for ones doing shows and contests to use anything? The point is...

steroid use is a novelty consumer trend. At least today...

Say a 160lb guy(my size) uses steroids to add 15 lbs in a month, then adds 2-3 in PCT, and adds 4 the month after that while using normal supplements. So lets say 22 lbs in 3 months, now at 182, and still growing. It shrinks the time span. And he can just keep on growing.

I am bulking naturally to 180ish(attempting 30 lbs in 60 days), I am just saying. If I get to the point of not growing no more naturally....then steroids are pointless I will just inflate and deflate. Have to eat way more than I am comfortable with on a longer bases just to hold onto the gains as they slowly rip away, and work harder just to slow the process of loss. Then begins the mentality of holding on to as much as you can until you are clear to run another cycle.... and thus begins a cycle that stays with many...

Once your near your max, the only reason I see use for a PH/DS personally is for a hard nice cut, or to recomp.

If you look at most people on this board they have went up and down, naturally or not naturally. You get sick, you lose alot of muscle. You have a nice long spell of healthiness, good eating, you put on a alot. You start getting stressed you lose some. You get a lil extra fat so you decide to cut, and lose some muscle. It is fluctuation.

All a steroid really is is a catalyst. Not the cherry on top, but the means to a goal.

I was at 155 awhile back, got a triple infection, lost all my strength, and weight, and put on some fat on the belly. I started my log at 150, I am 161-162. I will meet my goal of 180, maybe not in due time(since I also hurt my back) but soon enough. Knowing life though, I know there will be times I will see the 170's again, and maybe even the 160s.

I dont know why people act like this is street fighter and steroids are your finishing move or this is MK II and they are your *Fatality* final once the fights over...


Yes make sure you know what you are doing, you know how to train, and you have a decent diet down. Make sure you got the dedication, and you are at least half way to your genetic potential. But what good is it if all the hardest work is done and over? I mean maybe not every one wants to weigh over 200 lbs. But want the strength increase, recovery increase, and recomp effects of a specific product.

No one should technically touch the stuff. In a sense to reason someone who can do it properly to not to is hypocritical.

Also this is all IMO, and should probably be disregarded

Getting close to your natural limit isn't that hard if you are dedicated and know what you're doing. However, many people don't have the best genes, and may not be satisfied with their natural potential...*enter AAS*.

 

[Zero V]

Getting close to your natural limit isn't that hard if you are dedicated and know what you're doing. However, many people don't have the best genes, and may not be satisfied with their natural potential...*enter AAS*.

True.

I have some genes that are a blessing, some that are a curse. I wonder if there is a correlation to people who are not physically built by nature, and have to work for it and those who are naturally that way when they use a steroi and go into PCT. As in will the individuals who are naturally inclined ot it bounce back faster, than those who are not made for the physical stressors that lifting would bring?

Naturally I have high endurance, stay lean, but get strong. Bulking actually leaves me weaker ??

 

[UnrealMachine]

True.

I have some genes that are a blessing, some that are a curse. I wonder if there is a correlation to people who are not physically built by nature, and have to work for it and those who are naturally that way when they use a steroi and go into PCT. As in will the individuals who are naturally inclined ot it bounce back faster, than those who are not made for the physical stressors that lifting would bring?

Naturally I have high endurance, stay lean, but get strong. Bulking actually leaves me weaker ??

Bulking should never make you weaker. With excess calories you allow for muscle growth, with muscle growth comes strength. That just doesn't make any sense.

And your metabolism can't be that fast if you can bulk on 2500 calories. That's one of the lower bulking requirements I've seen posted. People with genuinely fast metabolisms need often need well over 4000 calories to bulk.

Me, my metabolism is slow. At the exact moment i'm around 2200-2500 calories and very slowly trying to lean out. 2500-3000 to maintain, 3500-3700 to bulk. 4000+ to bulk if i want to accept fat gains and bulk fast.

 

[Zero V]

Bulking should never make you weaker. With excess calories you allow for muscle growth, with muscle growth comes strength. That just doesn't make any sense.

And your metabolism can't be that fast if you can bulk on 2500 calories. That's one of the lower bulking requirements I've seen posted. People with genuinely fast metabolisms need often need well over 4000 calories to bulk.

Me, my metabolism is slow. At the exact moment i'm around 2200-2500 calories and very slowly trying to lean out. 2500-3000 to maintain, 3500-3700 to bulk. 4000+ to bulk if i want to accept fat gains and bulk fast.

I am bulking, but consider I am also jobless at the moment, and other than my gym time I sit all day or drive.... I really aint burning anything. At my old warehouse job last year, I had about a 3K a day calorie intake, was taking a few good supps, but kept losing weight.I couldnt get above 141, and often would hit 137ish again. I mean I got bigger, but it was all cut.

The reason I am only eating 2500 atm is because of being jobless I dont wanna end up fat. Not to mention I could only imagine what my cortisol looks like...hahah

Everything changes based on situational facts.

 

[mixedup]

I thought the point of taking anabolics is to get past yoru genetic potential. This doesnt sit well with me as your body is set to handle a certain amount of muscle, It only makes sense that once the steroids have been discontinued the body will return to its genetic setting.

i'd say 95% of people who juice aren't at their genetic potential. (me included so i'm not judging anyone) Being at genetic potential to me would me spot on diet and workout for something like 18 months straight with no new muscle.

btw i have held on to oncycle gains at least weight wise long after pct i'm talking years. i mean strength gains and hardness etc may have gone down but overall weight and size ive kept

 

[Mars1107]

definately a question i though to myself,

but it really cant be answered

As long as you work you butt off, is my answer, thats not really an answer.

about the comments about genetic potential, its absolutely true.

If u think u have low test levels or something get it checked out, because in these days its very possible. Even if uv never taken steriods.

 

[jay21]

i walk around at 230lbs (21yr old) and what zero v is really true, no offence to any1 but no1 should use ASS if they cannot get about 200lbs natrually. also say u r 15%bf and u wanna lean if natrually u cant get down to 9% and below then u should not use ASS for cutting. you have to make urself work for it is my belive. my all time highest was 250lbs and i did it natrually, but how???? well my diet stayed the same except for one thing i add a whole box of WHOLE GRAIN PASTA to my diet. ronnie got nuttin on me! so yah i def agree with zero v and this is just MO.

 

[jay21]

btw ronnie BIG COUNTRY coleman will take the olympia and claim his thrown at 9x

 

[Iron Warrior]

depends...this is why I question everyone saying get close ot your max before using a PH/DS....because once you go over your bodies functional threshold, its gona be sapped away once your off. But if your using it to get there, or to recomp it seems they would be permanent.

I dont mean if your 5'10 135, I mena if your 5'10 160-175 or 180. And not just by weight, but by body composition.

Could not say it better myself although I'd still recommend that people get close to their potential before using in order to develop good training and nutrition habits, but that's just a philosophical thing.

 

[madds87]

I think you can keep a very good bit of your gains. I have. well besides getting sick and loosing my gains, but thats a whole nother story.
Some people think that once they are done with there cycle aka off cycle they can tend to ween away from there strict diet that is considering that they had a strict diet to begin with. I think and have delt with this myself, is that after you are done with the cycle that once you get off you think "ok well now that im done im going to treat myself special" This is when they could either start drinking, not enough calories to hold on to there new muscle, etc. etc.
I think the best way to hold on to your new gains is to eat enough calories to feed the muscles. this would be atleast your weight of protein and a good bit of carbs cause you do not want you body to start eating away at those new muscles for energy.
I also think that a high anti catabolic/anti inflam. diet. This could be high fatty diet consisted of fatty acids, multivitamin and herbs-to fight off toxins that could also harm you precious muscle. This is also considering a clean diet.

ORRRRRR you could just be screwed with really bad genes. lol. You just have to consider all aspects of this and be ready for your off cycle. Also remember that your on cycle is not a cycle until you take just as much time as it did to make your on cycle for your off cycle and further out. Stick with your diet (clean diet) and you 'should' keep it.

 

[mooch2321]

i walk around at 230lbs (21yr old) and what zero v is really true, no offence to any1 but no1 should use ASS if they cannot get about 200lbs natrually. also say u r 15%bf and u wanna lean if natrually u cant get down to 9% and below then u should not use ASS for cutting. you have to make urself work for it is my belive. my all time highest was 250lbs and i did it natrually, but how???? well my diet stayed the same except for one thing i add a whole box of WHOLE GRAIN PASTA to my diet. ronnie got nuttin on me! so yah i def agree with zero v and this is just MO.

what if your 5'2?
on another note...how tall are you jay?

 

[TexasTitan]

what if your 5'2?
on another note...how tall are you jay?

Bout to say. Im 5'5'' 170ish and I couldnt hit 200 naturally in my life without being fat.

 

[jay21]

im 5'8. well if ur under 5'5 i guess 170 id pretty good. but im talkin like on the line of avg height 5'7-6.

 

[Gator 87]

im 5'8. well if ur under 5'5 i guess 170 id pretty good. but im talkin like on the line of avg height 5'7-6.

Most ectos (meaning anyone with thin joints and a naturally light build) under 6ft tall would have an INSANELY hard time time hitting 200 lbs lean. 185-190 seems to be the approximate sticking point (for me at least), and according to those natural potential calculator programs.
But still, I def get what you're saying and share that same opinion.

 

[hardknock]

Technically whats the point in anyone except for ones doing shows and contests to use anything? The point is...

steroid use is a novelty consumer trend. At least today...

Say a 160lb guy(my size) uses steroids to add 15 lbs in a month, then adds 2-3 in PCT, and adds 4 the month after that while using normal supplements. So lets say 22 lbs in 3 months, now at 182, and still growing. It shrinks the time span. And he can just keep on growing.

I am bulking naturally to 180ish(attempting 30 lbs in 60 days), I am just saying. If I get to the point of not growing no more naturally....then steroids are pointless I will just inflate and deflate. Have to eat way more than I am comfortable with on a longer bases just to hold onto the gains as they slowly rip away, and work harder just to slow the process of loss. Then begins the mentality of holding on to as much as you can until you are clear to run another cycle.... and thus begins a cycle that stays with many...

Once your near your max, the only reason I see use for a PH/DS personally is for a hard nice cut, or to recomp.

If you look at most people on this board they have went up and down, naturally or not naturally. You get sick, you lose alot of muscle. You have a nice long spell of healthiness, good eating, you put on a alot. You start getting stressed you lose some. You get a lil extra fat so you decide to cut, and lose some muscle. It is fluctuation.

All a steroid really is is a catalyst. Not the cherry on top, but the means to a goal.

I was at 155 awhile back, got a triple infection, lost all my strength, and weight, and put on some fat on the belly. I started my log at 150, I am 161-162. I will meet my goal of 180, maybe not in due time(since I also hurt my back) but soon enough. Knowing life though, I know there will be times I will see the 170's again, and maybe even the 160s.

I dont know why people act like this is street fighter and steroids are your finishing move or this is MK II and they are your *Fatality* final once the fights over...


Yes make sure you know what you are doing, you know how to train, and you have a decent diet down. Make sure you got the dedication, and you are at least half way to your genetic potential. But what good is it if all the hardest work is done and over? I mean maybe not every one wants to weigh over 200 lbs. But want the strength increase, recovery increase, and recomp effects of a specific product.

No one should technically touch the stuff. In a sense to reason someone who can do it properly to not to is hypocritical.

Also this is all IMO, and should probably be disregarded

Honestly, you hit the nail on the head in the first sentence. NONE of it makes any sense unless your ultimate goal is to compete at some point, be it bodybuilding, power lifting, mma, etc. I only use any type of boosters, ai's, proteins, and hard work, to just maintain, or get a slight recomp. I am perfectly ok with 5'10 200-210. I have no possible reason at 35 to want to gain more weight or muscle mass. A nice lower BF would be decent, go from sub 14ish to sub 10, but there is really no drive for this purpose. I would rather increase my stamina and endurance than gain 20lbs of muscle at this stage of the game...

For the Op
There is no way to perfectly hold on to EVERY SINGLE OUNCE of your gains forever. This is just not biologically possible. You cannot beat father time, there is NO WAY to accomplish this, it is IMPOSSIBLE.

You can, however, hold on to short term gains. I have done it for 2 or so years by just constant yo-yo'ing my workouts and supplements, and diets.It has taken me over 10 years to go from 135 to 205ish ... BUT, it's there to stay and perhaps more permanent than if I had done all of this through just trying to use anabolics. I have used them, twice (m1t, phera plex) a few years ago, several years ago for m1t. But since then I've steered clear of them.

Don't get it wrong, I loved using them, but I understood that it was pointless when I wasn't going to compete in any sport where they would benefit me.

 

[UnrealMachine]

i was up almost at 240 naturally, but like 17% bf. All out bulk has got to be the quickest way to make progress. I cut down close to 200 then built myself back up leaner.

Jay idk how the hell you hit 250 at 5'8, but most people just can't do that. I could only hit that kind of a weight:height ratio if i let myself get powerlifter-fat or something lol

And the ectomorphs are screwed trying to get close to that. I only personally know 1 true ectomorph, I remember he lost like 14 pounds in a week because he was too busy studying to train or eat much. Myself, i'll never drop weight like that, even if i lower my cal intake a lot. Not 14 pounds. He was only 160. True ectos have it hard when it comes to piling on the weight.

Anyway, it's certainly possible for a true ecto to not be able to get to 200+ naturally, under 6'0 anyway. 6'2 and over shouldn't have much difficulty. But who am i to judge, right, i have a very different bodytype