Susta/Deca/Winny - Cycle Advise

[thelix]

Hey Guys,

I need some experienced help in adjusting my cycle here. It is my first real gear cycle after a few PS/PH ones.

Sustanon250: wk 1 to 10 - 500mg
Deca: wk 3 to 12 - 200mg
Winny: wk 6 to 12 - 50mg
Adex: wk 3 to 14 - 0.5mg
HCG: wk 6 - 300ui/day for 5 days

TPC
HCG: wk 13 and 14 - 300ui/day for 5 days
Clomid: wk 13 to 16 - 50mg

I don't want to **** it up, so please criticize as much as you can.

My main questions are on the TPC. Is 4-week tpc enough ? Do I have the right dose on the HCG ?

Thanks a lot guys.
(stats: 36, 5-9, 162lbs)

 

[EVILADAMS]

Deca should be twice that per week IMO. Probably no HCG during PCT. Use it just during the cycle. Might need to run clomid longer than just 3 weeks. Do not run clomid while running AAS. Begin clomid 2-3 weeks after your last injection.

 

[mooch2321]

Hey Guys,

I need some experienced help in adjusting my cycle here. It is my first real gear cycle after a few PS/PH ones.

Sustanon250: wk 1 to 10 - 500mg
Deca: wk 3 to 12 - 200mg
Winny: wk 6 to 12 - 50mg
Adex: wk 3 to 14 - 0.5mg
HCG: wk 6 - 300ui/day for 5 days

TPC
HCG: wk 13 and 14 - 300ui/day for 5 days
Clomid: wk 13 to 16 - 50mg

I don't want to **** it up, so please criticize as much as you can.

My main questions are on the TPC. Is 4-week tpc enough ? Do I have the right dose on the HCG ?

Thanks a lot guys.
(stats: 36, 5-9, 162lbs)

fixed :wave2:...
sust-1-12 500mg
deca1-10 200mgs (is fine...first cycle)
winn 8-14 50mgs ed

hcg-12-14 250 iu eod
clomid14-18 50/50/50/50
nolva 14-18 20/20/20/20

if you can get more hcg run it throughout the whole cycle....

 

[mooch2321]

oops sorry forgot your arimidex....run that 1-12 .5mg eod....but id only worry about starting if you get too much bloat or gyno signs....no need to waste if not

 

[sethroberts]

oops sorry forgot your arimidex....run that 1-12 .5mg eod....but id only worry about starting if you get too much bloat or gyno signs....no need to waste if not

Actually, I think you had it fine the first time with the nolva, just make it weeks 1-14 with no AI.

 

[mooch2321]

Actually, I think you had it fine the first time with the nolva, just make it weeks 1-14 with no AI.

ha....i know...i know....you hate ai's....but ive had good experiences with adex in basically every cycle ive ran.....

 

[sethroberts]

ha....i know...i know....you hate ai's....but ive had good experiences with adex in basically every cycle ive ran.....

Just kills the HDL and crushes SHBG.

 

[thelix]

fixed :wave2:...
sust-1-12 500mg
deca1-10 200mgs (is fine...first cycle)
winn 8-14 50mgs ed

hcg-12-14 250 iu eod
clomid14-18 50/50/50/50
nolva 14-18 20/20/20/20

if you can get more hcg run it throughout the whole cycle....

Just kills the HDL and crushes SHBG.

This is great advice guys....but what's the rationale for using both clomid and nolva in the TPC, since I am using hcg wks 12-14, do I really need both ?

Seth, many people advocate using low dose of Nolva during cycle. You suggesting not using anything AI or SERM ? Isn't that taking a big risk given the high conversion to estro from the test, and the prolactin promoted by Deca ?


mooch, what's the protocol for running hcg during the whole cycle ? Wouldn't that promote a lot of bloating due to high estrogen levels is causes ?

 

[thelix]

sorry Seth, another questions for you.

You promote the use of Clomid during cycle in your articles. Can you elaborate on that ?

Tks

 

[mooch2321]

Just kills the HDL and crushes SHBG.

HDL...SHBG....is that german?...never heard of it...lol

op...as far as clomid and nolva they are better at doing different things...seth may disagree here but clomid is much better at jumpstarting lh function and nolva is better at blocking estro from binding at the receptor site....on paper ive seen many studys tell me this is not true...but thats how it pans out in real life....ive always used a low dose of both in PCT....as far as hcg goes...its not imperative...but it would definately help recovery to run 200iu say mon,wed,fri all through the cycle....now as easily explained as possible...hcg will simulate lh function while clomid stimulates it...so yes you need both....

 

[sethroberts]

This is great advice guys....but what's the rationale for using both clomid and nolva in the TPC, since I am using hcg wks 12-14, do I really need both ?

Seth, many people advocate using low dose of Nolva during cycle. You suggesting not using anything AI or SERM ? Isn't that taking a big risk given the high conversion to estro from the test, and the prolactin promoted by Deca ?


mooch, what's the protocol for running hcg during the whole cycle ? Wouldn't that promote a lot of bloating due to high estrogen levels is causes ?

Deca doesn't promote prolactin. I was suggesting Nolva be used for the whole cycle. I don't recall promoting clomid for on cycle use but it could be used as a substitute for nolva -- but nolva seems to be better for this purpose.

 

[thelix]

Deca doesn't promote prolactin. I was suggesting Nolva be used for the whole cycle. I don't recall promoting clomid for on cycle use but it could be used as a substitute for nolva -- but nolva seems to be better for this purpose.

sorry, Deca is a 19-nor steroid which has a high binding affinity to to progesterone receptors and therefore create some progestin-like effects, such as HPTA shutdown. Is there anything we could do to minimize that ?

There was an article on Mesomorphosis.com called Anabolic Pharmacology (like your book) which promotes Clomid during a cycle to minimize shutdown. I looked back and the author is actually Bill Roberts...sorry for the mistake here. But it is actually an interesting article. I was interested to see your comments on that.

 

[sethroberts]

sorry, Deca is a 19-nor steroid which has a high binding affinity to to progesterone receptors and therefore create some progestin-like effects, such as HPTA shutdown. Is there anything we could do to minimize that ?

There was an article on Mesomorphosis.com called Anabolic Pharmacology (like your book) which promotes Clomid during a cycle to minimize shutdown. I looked back and the author is actually Bill Roberts...sorry for the mistake here. But it is actually an interesting article. I was interested to see your comments on that.

Deca is a 19-nor steroid and does bind to the progesterone receptor but the affinity is actually pretty weak. Whether it is this progesterone receptor activity or the strong androgen binding activity of nandrolone is really an unknown. Clomid might be used on cycle to try to keep LH levels up but I am not sure it would be very effective since androgenic stimulation in the hypothalamus also reduces LH output.

 

[thelix]

HDL...SHBG....is that german?...never heard of it...lol

op...as far as clomid and nolva they are better at doing different things...seth may disagree here but clomid is much better at jumpstarting lh function and nolva is better at blocking estro from binding at the receptor site....on paper ive seen many studys tell me this is not true...but thats how it pans out in real life....ive always used a low dose of both in PCT....as far as hcg goes...its not imperative...but it would definately help recovery to run 200iu say mon,wed,fri all through the cycle....now as easily explained as possible...hcg will simulate lh function while clomid stimulates it...so yes you need both....

got it...and thanks for clarifying it. I was under the impression, after studying and seeing on Anabolics 2006 book (page 69), that anti-estrogens alone are very ineffective in bringing Test levels back up. They are good are bringing LH levels back quickly by Test productions lags LH levels by several weeks. Therefore the focus should be put on testicular mass recovery by stimulating it with LH levels much higher than the normal ones, and anti-estrogens used as a supporting drug.

Also have learned that the use of HCG should not exceed 2 weeks consecutively, in order to avoid LH receptor to loose sensitivity to LH. Isn't that the case ?

 

[sethroberts]

got it...and thanks for clarifying it. I was under the impression, after studying and seeing on Anabolics 2006 book (page 69), that anti-estrogens alone are very ineffective in bringing Test levels back up. They are good are bringing LH levels back quickly by Test productions lags LH levels by several weeks. Therefore the focus should be put on testicular mass recovery by stimulating it with LH levels much higher than the normal ones, and anti-estrogens used as a supporting drug.

Also have learned that the use of HCG should not exceed 2 weeks consecutively, in order to avoid LH receptor to loose sensitivity to LH. Isn't that the case ?

Not necessarily -- there is a pretty often cited paper that shows fairly low doses of HCG to be good at keeping intratesticular testosterone levels up over time.

 

[thelix]

Not necessarily -- there is a pretty often cited paper that shows fairly low doses of HCG to be good at keeping intratesticular testosterone levels up over time.

ah ok, so the desensitize of LH issue may be the case for high doses only...