How to be a message board "guru"...

sethroberts

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It is actually quite simple. All you have to do is repeat the following phrases where appropriate. You never have to have an original thought, never have to explain anything and since you will probably have other "gurus" parroting right along with you, nobody will oppose you:

1. Time off should equal time on
2. Test must be the base of every cycle, no exceptions
3. Higher doses are always better
4. Low doses don't do anything
5. No orals only cycles
6. Never combine orals - your liver will rot out
7. You must use an anti-e on cycle, preferably a high dose AI
8. Tapering is a waste, any dose of AAS shuts you down completely
9. Pyramidding is a waste of time and drug
10. More frequent injections equal more stable blood levels

Since everybody responds exactly the same and has exactly the same goals, these rules work perfectly all the time.
 
Jayhawkk

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Pfft, been saying all this for years! I am The Guru
 

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HA HA

It is actually quite simple. All you have to do is repeat the following phrases where appropriate. You never have to have an original thought, never have to explain anything and since you will probably have other "gurus" parroting right along with you, nobody will oppose you:

1. Time off should equal time on
2. Test must be the base of every cycle, no exceptions
3. Higher doses are always better
4. Low doses don't do anything
5. No orals only cycles
6. Never combine orals - your liver will rot out
7. You must use an anti-e on cycle, preferably a high dose AI
8. Tapering is a waste, any dose of AAS shuts you down completely
9. Pyramidding is a waste of time and drug
10. More frequent injections equal more stable blood levels

Since everybody responds exactly the same and has exactly the same goals, these rules work perfectly all the time.
How true.
 
mooch2321

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tell us how you really feel......but no seriously the only one i dont agree with is ten....greater frequency of injections doesnt = more stable blood levels?
 
suncloud

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6. Never combine orals - your liver will rot out
purely subjective, and entirely depends on what is being taken, though your liver can self regenerate from 10% functioning to 100% functioning within 2 weeks of taking care of it. it takes a lot to kill the liver, but that doesn't mean someone should try :) IMO.

"M-Drol's a great supplement! It worked so well while I was on it my friends thought I was on steroids, lol. It says to take it for no more than 4wks but I cheated a little & took it for 12wks along with P-Plex. They worked great but the last 6wks I didn’t get anymore gains & I felt really sick at times. I finished last week & just started H-Drol. Great products!
 
mooch2321

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purely subjective, and entirely depends on what is being taken, though your liver can self regenerate from 10% functioning to 100% functioning within 2 weeks of taking care of it. it takes a lot to kill the liver, but that doesn't mean someone should try :) IMO.
so you know its a joke right?
 
sethroberts

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tell us how you really feel......but no seriously the only one i dont agree with is ten....greater frequency of injections doesnt = more stable blood levels?
As you increase the frequency of injections, it takes longer to reach plasma steady state -- once you reach steady state, the blood levels may be slightly more stable but depending on how frequent the injections are it could take longer to reach steady state than the length of the cycle.
 
mooch2321

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As you increase the frequency of injections, it takes longer to reach plasma steady state -- once you reach steady state, the blood levels may be slightly more stable but depending on how frequent the injections are it could take longer to reach steady state than the length of the cycle.
huh....so with long esthers are you a once a week advocate?
 
mooch2321

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but wait...following this line of reasoning wouldnt ramping in with more frequent injections make it take longer to reach the "plasma steady state".....does your book explain this in more detail....im waiting on nutra right now....lol
 
sethroberts

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but wait...following this line of reasoning wouldnt ramping in with more frequent injections make it take longer to reach the "plasma steady state".....does your book explain this in more detail....im waiting on nutra right now....lol
It would basically achieve the same thing as frontloading -- get you to a certain plasma level faster. One could front load I guess and then do twice weekly injections but it is hard to anticipate plasma levels without blood tests.

My book does not go into as much detail of this as I would like but so much of it is an unknown quantity and still requires some trial and error
 
Zero V

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It is actually quite simple. All you have to do is repeat the following phrases where appropriate. You never have to have an original thought, never have to explain anything and since you will probably have other "gurus" parroting right along with you, nobody will oppose you:

1. Time off should equal time on
2. Test must be the base of every cycle, no exceptions
3. Higher doses are always better
4. Low doses don't do anything
5. No orals only cycles
6. Never combine orals - your liver will rot out
7. You must use an anti-e on cycle, preferably a high dose AI
8. Tapering is a waste, any dose of AAS shuts you down completely
9. Pyramidding is a waste of time and drug
10. More frequent injections equal more stable blood levels
Awesome, does this lesson come with a certificate of authenticity? :D
 

small_guy

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Why is once a week best for a long ester?? Why not once ever 6 days? Once every 10 days? You get my point. Could you explain why once every 7 days is ideal over some other frequency pattern. Should the half-life not tell us how to inject as it measures the release of the steroid from the injection site and when half the drug is absorbed or used. The issue I realize is that everyone has a different metabolism and such and hence different half-life but it seems very unlikely that once a week just works out by pure luck to be the best.

Not trying to be a prick but rather trying to learn and absorb something new other than the standard twice a week injection protocol.
 
sethroberts

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Why is once a week best for a long ester?? Why not once ever 6 days? Once every 10 days? You get my point. Could you explain why once every 7 days is ideal over some other frequency pattern. Should the half-life not tell us how to inject as it measures the release of the steroid from the injection site and when half the drug is absorbed or used. The issue I realize is that everyone has a different metabolism and such and hence different half-life but it seems very unlikely that once a week just works out by pure luck to be the best.

Not trying to be a prick but rather trying to learn and absorb something new other than the standard twice a week injection protocol.
Generally, you want to dose at the half-life. If the half-life is 7 days then inject every 7 days. If it is 10 days then dose 10 days. You are correct though -- it will vary from person to person as well as with injection volume and where it is injected (glute, delt, thigh, etc...). For testosterone cypionate the half-life is about eight days but for enathate it has been reported to be about 10 days.
 
SilentBob187

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I totally thought this was going to be a thread about the ORIGINAL guru. What ever happened to that kid?
 
Mulletsoldier

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I feel that depends primarily on which compounds you are speaking about, and what constitutes 'bad' in this context.

As somebody mentioned, acute hepatic stress can be recuperated from easily; however, differing oral steroids [like any steroid] have different binding affinities to SHBG, ER2/ProgRs/ARs, and will consequently elicit a wide-range of both positive and negative effects.

I believe Seth was merely trying to point out that specificity [very precise and clear] is necessary in choosing oral compounds to stack, like all other compounds, due to the wide-range of genetic and metabolic factors involved with A.A.S., use.
 

SeanyK

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sethroberts ..... you are the man... mannn. no for real tho.
 
sethroberts

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I feel that depends primarily on which compounds you are speaking about, and what constitutes 'bad' in this context.

As somebody mentioned, acute hepatic stress can be recuperated from easily; however, differing oral steroids [like any steroid] have different binding affinities to SHBG, ER2/ProgRs/ARs, and will consequently elicit a wide-range of both positive and negative effects.

I believe Seth was merely trying to point out that specificity [very precise and clear] is necessary in choosing oral compounds to stack, like all other compounds, due to the wide-range of genetic and metabolic factors involved with A.A.S., use.
It definitely depends on which orals you are combining but it also comes down to dose and duration. Which is worse, combining 25 mg of dbol with 25 mg of anadrol or taking 50 mg of either compound alone? Nobody really knows but I suspect there is not much difference from a hepatotoxicity point of view.
 
Mulletsoldier

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It definitely depends on which orals you are combining but it also comes down to dose and duration. Which is worse, combining 25 mg of dbol with 25 mg of anadrol or taking 50 mg of either compound alone? Nobody really knows but I suspect there is not much difference from a hepatotoxicity point of view.
Yes, definitely. When considering the combination of steroids, "effective dose" [I am defining that as the lessermost dose necessary to acheive positive anabolism without a high distribution of harmful effects] needs to be considered as a key component of compound choice as a whole.
 
Problem

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Why higher doses are always better if you can achieve what you want with a low dose?
 
EasyEJL

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1. Time off should equal time on
Honestly with this if someone is asking in the first place, then its pretty obvious they don't have blood tests to go on "my balls were all woke up by first week of pct so I even cut PCT short, when can I run again" is more of what you see. So in the absence of blood tests, what would you suggest Seth? To me the time off = time on + pct is likely their safest option sans blood tests.
 
sethroberts

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Honestly with this if someone is asking in the first place, then its pretty obvious they don't have blood tests to go on "my balls were all woke up by first week of pct so I even cut PCT short, when can I run again" is more of what you see. So in the absence of blood tests, what would you suggest Seth? To me the time off = time on + pct is likely their safest option sans blood tests.
Why not a longer period of time (Time off = 2X time on+PCT)? If you are that anxious to jump back on, maybe you should have done a longer cycle to begin with. I am just really opposed to the cookie cutter approach and the parroting of rules without any though being put in.
 
Trauma1

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It definitely depends on which orals you are combining but it also comes down to dose and duration. Which is worse, combining 25 mg of dbol with 25 mg of anadrol or taking 50 mg of either compound alone? Nobody really knows but I suspect there is not much difference from a hepatotoxicity point of view.
Seth - I can see some of your point here, but i don't necessarily agree with it either. Dose and duration of a drug certainly does play a large factor in the degree of applied and evinced hepatic involvement. Anytime you combine different drugs (whatever they may be), or deal with some type of polypharmacy issue, there is no way to accurately gauge what the possible interactions, adverse effects, or overall clinical outcome will be without extensive research to document and report those findings.

I've witnessed these types of issues many times in my professional experience over the years. As it is today, there are still a TON of drugs that haven't been tested for compatibility or possible dangerous interactions (possibly spanning the involvement of multiple body or organ systems.)

It very well may not be any more of a significant factor in general, but it also could drastically potentiate the amount of hepatic stress; or even involve renal clearance issues. Each individual is different, and there are a myriad of unknown factors that could further complicate the issue; or the potential for an issue. I don't completely disagree with you here either, but i'm not convinced there isn't a reasonable potential for pathological interactions to take place based on the lack of research to support or negate it.
 
Frank Reynolds

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Seth - I can see some of your point here, but i don't necessarily agree with it either. Dose and duration of a drug certainly does play a large factor in the degree of applied and evinced hepatic involvement. Anytime you combine different drugs (whatever they may be), or deal with some type of polypharmacy issue, there is no way to accurately gauge what the possible interactions, adverse effects, or overall clinical outcome will be without extensive research to document and report those findings.

I've witnessed these types of issues many times in my professional experience over the years. As it is today, there are still a TON of drugs that haven't been tested for compatibility or possible dangerous interactions (possibly spanning the involvement of multiple body or organ systems.)

It very well may not be any more of a significant factor in general, but it also could drastically potentiate the amount of hepatic stress; or even involve renal clearance issues. Each individual is different, and there are a myriad of unknown factors that could further complicate the issue; or the potential for an issue. I don't completely disagree with you here either, but i'm not convinced there isn't a reasonable potential for pathological interactions to take place based on the lack of research to support or negate it.
Would this not be the case when stacking any drugs in general, regardless of their delivery?
 
Trauma1

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Would this not be the case when stacking any drugs in general, regardless of their delivery?
Absolutely. Some more than others, but this definitely spans many drugs in general. There are many meds that have been documented with possible interactions, but there are even more that haven't been. This is why it's important to always fully understand the drug you're taking; as well as the side effects, adverse effects, or possible drug interactions that may be.
 

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It is actually quite simple. All you have to do is repeat the following phrases where appropriate. You never have to have an original thought, never have to explain anything and since you will probably have other "gurus" parroting right along with you, nobody will oppose you:

1. Time off should equal time on
2. Test must be the base of every cycle, no exceptions
3. Higher doses are always better
4. Low doses don't do anything
5. No orals only cycles
6. Never combine orals - your liver will rot out
7. You must use an anti-e on cycle, preferably a high dose AI
8. Tapering is a waste, any dose of AAS shuts you down completely
9. Pyramidding is a waste of time and drug
10. More frequent injections equal more stable blood levels

Since everybody responds exactly the same and has exactly the same goals, these rules work perfectly all the time.
Or, take a few chem classes, read 3-4 books and just paraphrase and regurgitate everything you have read, smoke and mirrors...

I met a guy from the boards once, not this one, but another one and he was powerless without his google rod!
 
sethroberts

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Absolutely. Some more than others, but this definitely spans many drugs in general. There are many meds that have been documented with possible interactions, but there are even more that haven't been. This is why it's important to always fully understand the drug you're taking; as well as the side effects, adverse effects, or possible drug interactions that may be.
You are correct. There is no way to tell if drug:drug interactions will exist between two drugs without extensive research and drugs will most likely influence the metabolism of other drugs. I was referring to one isolated side effect of a class of drugs which has been largely typified across the class. We also have evidence in the literature to show that large doses of oral androgens can be given for fairly long periods of time. Would I say that combining alcohol with Dbol would be the same as combining dbol with anadrol, no because there are likely to be class differences that may be synergistic instead of additive. Like you said, there is no hard evidence but that is where we have to apply our knowledge in a reasonable way taking into account our education and experience with what we observe to form workng hypotheses.

Imprezivr has a good point though that stacking even injectables with orals will alter the metabolism of either drug and could increase the metabolic load on the liver -- never mind when a person usesmultiple injectables plus nolvadex plus an AI plus HCG. Is combining any two orals in any dose by everybody a good idea? no -- that is just as bad as saying never combine two orals.
 
HardTrainer

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Like you said, there is no hard evidence but that is where we have to apply our knowledge in a reasonable way taking into account our education and experience with what we observe to form workng hypotheses.
So do we have any working hypotheses about which orals are safe to stack?

Is combining any two orals in any dose by everybody a good idea? no -- that is just as bad as saying never combine two orals.
Just for the sake of playing the devils advocate, what you're saying could well be true from a scientific/empirical stand-point. But telling people not to combine orals is probably the safer of the two options and It's probably better to have people spreading misinformation that errs on the side of caution, rather than misinformation could be dangerous, no?
 
Frank Reynolds

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It's probably better to have people spreading misinformation that errs on the side of caution, rather than misinformation could be dangerous, no?
So misinformation is fine, as long as it is "probably" the safer route?

How come this doesn't apply to the use(overuse) of SERMs in pct? We KNOW they have adverse effects.. We KNOW that people have had successful restarts with fairly low doses of SERMs, yet people are constantly recommending 50-150mg clomid, plus 40-60mg novla.

Now i am not saying this is right or wrong, i do have my own "opinion" on the subject. What i am saying is people get so worked up over the toxic effects of oral steroids, and possibly stacking two, yet don't seem the least bit concerned to run a hefty dose of SERMs after coming of of said "abusive" cycle.
 
HardTrainer

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So misinformation is fine, as long as it is "probably" the safer route?

How come this doesn't apply to the use(overuse) of SERMs in pct? We KNOW they have adverse effects.. We KNOW that people have had successful restarts with fairly low doses of SERMs, yet people are constantly recommending 50-150mg clomid, plus 40-60mg novla.

Now i am not saying this is right or wrong, i do have my own "opinion" on the subject. What i am saying is people get so worked up over the toxic effects of oral steroids, and possibly stacking two, yet don't seem the least bit concerned to run a hefty dose of SERMs after coming of of said "abusive" cycle.
I was in a bit of hurry when I wrote that so I'll try wording my argument a bit better.

From what Seth and others have said, it seems that there is no conrete answer to the issue of how safe stacking orals really is. So based on that, the scientific answer is: "We don't know", which I'm not debating. Seth made the argument that saying "Never stack orals" is just as bad as saying "Anybody can mix any orals they like".

But from a practical point of view, it seems to me that a world where everyone parrots the phrase "Never stack orals" would ultimately result in fewer hospitalised bodybuilders than a world where everyone says things like: "Dude, if you're gonna run superdrol then you have to stack it with phera and h-drol."

I'm not saying that we should ignore the science. But if the scientific answer is "We don't really know", then I think assuming the worst and playing it safe is probably a pretty good 'working hypothesis'. Especially for those of us with very little scientific understanding. We can't expect that everyone who juices can be as learned and knowledgeable as someone like Seth. It's like saying: "Eat five portions of fruit and veg a day". It's a simplified half-truth for people that don't know any better that, on the whole, does more good than harm.

If the same logic were applied to SERMs then it seems to me that always using the lowest possible dose would be the obvious conclusion (at least for a scientific ignoramus like myself).

I definatly argee with you about the inconsistency among juicers between stacking orals steroids and stacking SERMs or other hepatotoxic things.
 
Trauma1

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You are correct. There is no way to tell if drug:drug interactions will exist between two drugs without extensive research and drugs will most likely influence the metabolism of other drugs. I was referring to one isolated side effect of a class of drugs which has been largely typified across the class. We also have evidence in the literature to show that large doses of oral androgens can be given for fairly long periods of time. Would I say that combining alcohol with Dbol would be the same as combining dbol with anadrol, no because there are likely to be class differences that may be synergistic instead of additive. Like you said, there is no hard evidence but that is where we have to apply our knowledge in a reasonable way taking into account our education and experience with what we observe to form workng hypotheses.

Imprezivr has a good point though that stacking even injectables with orals will alter the metabolism of either drug and could increase the metabolic load on the liver -- never mind when a person usesmultiple injectables plus nolvadex plus an AI plus HCG. Is combining any two orals in any dose by everybody a good idea? no -- that is just as bad as saying never combine two orals.
Exactly. A cumulative effect of many different drugs (this also includes drugs outside androgen compounds and via different routes of delivery) can cause an increased workload on the body to metabolize it, and then excrete it. This workload can play a factor in many different body systems in general, and can even influence the efficiacy of other systems. The significance or degree of that can vary between the compounds that are involved - to the the individual themselves.

I agree that our applied knowledge, education, and personal experiences can help to validate some things for us on an individual basis. However, ancedotal experiences just aren't going to demonstrate much at all in terms of demonstrating actual safety either way. Blood work is considered by many to be objective information to support a hypothesis (and it can be in a controlled and fully disclosed environment/setting), however, as i said before, there are so many unknown variables that can play a factor into the equation (mainly in this particular setting), that it's in all honesty a moot aspect all together in terms of support.

The liver is most certainly a very resilient organ, and the only organ in the human body capable of actual tissue regeneration (but it can be beaten into submission.) The "broscience" in regard to actual hepatic function and potential toxic stress is seriously laughable at times, but that whole issue can and will be drastically different on an individual basis.

I'm not here to rain on the parade though - just offering another view point. I'd be a hypocrite to say that i haven't stacked compounds in the past; because i most certainly have done that. This doesn't mean that i necessarily support that methodology either, but we're all adults here and can make informed decisions based on the information at hand. Being a man of medicine myself - i tend to err on the side of caution more often than not when there isn't at least some type of meaningful evidence to support safety.

I've finally had the opportunity to start reading your book, seth. Looks like a good read my friend. :)

I have a quick off topic question though - do you plan to make a more in- depth book in terms of the content in the future?
 
Frank Reynolds

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I was in a bit of hurry when I wrote that so I'll try wording my argument a bit better.

From what Seth and others have said, it seems that there is no conrete answer to the issue of how safe stacking orals really is. So based on that, the scientific answer is: "We don't know", which I'm not debating. Seth made the argument that saying "Never stack orals" is just as bad as saying "Anybody can mix any orals they like".

But from a practical point of view, it seems to me that a world where everyone parrots the phrase "Never stack orals" would ultimately result in fewer hospitalised bodybuilders than a world where everyone says things like: "Dude, if you're gonna run superdrol then you have to stack it with phera and h-drol."

I'm not saying that we should ignore the science. But if the scientific answer is "We don't really know", then I think assuming the worst and playing it safe is probably a pretty good 'working hypothesis'. Especially for those of us with very little scientific understanding. We can't expect that everyone who juices can be as learned and knowledgeable as someone like Seth. It's like saying: "Eat five portions of fruit and veg a day". It's a simplified half-truth for people that don't know any better that, on the whole, does more good than harm.

If the same logic were applied to SERMs then it seems to me that always using the lowest possible dose would be the obvious conclusion (at least for a scientific ignoramus like myself).

I definatly argee with you about the inconsistency among juicers between stacking orals steroids and stacking SERMs or other hepatotoxic things.
I know what your saying but i think the point(or atleast one of the points) he is making is that parroting "don't stack orals" can give someone an equal false sense of security.. You see people running large doses of one compound with the "assumption" that it is safe(er).. Yet you see someone else post a cycle with two orals, but at a much more moderate dose(total mg), and everyone jumps on them..

I find "bro-science" also changes based on popularity, or post count. Someone with a low post count can post a proposed cycle, and be ran off the board, yet a "vet" can post the same cycle and the same people are saying "hell ya, awesome cycle" lol

If the same logic were applied to SERMs then it seems to me that always using the lowest possible dose would be the obvious conclusion
This is my exact feeling..
 
Trauma1

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I know what your saying but i think the point(or atleast one of the points) he is making is that parroting "don't stack orals" can give someone an equal false sense of security.. You see people running large doses of one compound with the "assumption" that it is safe(er).. Yet you see someone else post a cycle with two orals, but at a much more moderate dose(total mg), and everyone jumps on them..

I find "bro-science" also changes based on popularity, or post count. Someone with a low post count can post a proposed cycle, and be ran off the board, yet a "vet" can post the same cycle and the same people are saying "hell ya, awesome cycle" lol


This is my exact feeling..
I completely agree, bud. :laugh:
 
HardTrainer

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I know what your saying but i think the point(or atleast one of the points) he is making is that parroting "don't stack orals" can give someone an equal false sense of security.. You see people running large doses of one compound with the "assumption" that it is safe(er)..
Fair point. I hadn't considered that.

You've convinced me :laugh:
 
jambarino

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I find "bro-science" also changes based on popularity, or post count. Someone with a low post count can post a proposed cycle, and be ran off the board, yet a "vet" can post the same cycle and the same people are saying "hell ya, awesome cycle" lol


completely agree.i find it funny how if ur 22 yrs old and have run three epistane cycles ur all the sudden a "vet" and know every thing about prohormones and steroids and pct.not trying to call out names cuz i dont want to hijack the thread but a certain someone who is only 22 goes around various message boards and preaches to everybody about any cycle they lay out like he wrote the book on AAS and prohormones yet a year and a half ago he couldnt post in the anabolics section.its irritating asking for advice sometimes cuz u got all these 6'0 170 pound prohormone guru's and E-thugs that want to chime in and flame you asking for legit advice.there have been only a few to give me constructive advice and try to help.sometimes i dont even want to ask questions cuz i know i'll get bulls**t responses from people usually younger,smaller and weaker than me and have only ran an hdrol cycle. i mean if u were in a gym and wanted workout advice on how to get bigger and stronger would you go up to a personal trainer who is younger than you and is 5'10 160 or would you walk up to ronnie coleman and ask him.
 
Mulletsoldier

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I know what your saying but i think the point(or atleast one of the points) he is making is that parroting "don't stack orals" can give someone an equal false sense of security.. You see people running large doses of one compound with the "assumption" that it is safe(er).. Yet you see someone else post a cycle with two orals, but at a much more moderate dose(total mg), and everyone jumps on them..

I find "bro-science" also changes based on popularity, or post count. Someone with a low post count can post a proposed cycle, and be ran off the board, yet a "vet" can post the same cycle and the same people are saying "hell ya, awesome cycle" lol



This is my exact feeling..
Agreed. This becomes especially problematic when people accord more consideration to the "stars" beside someone's name than the content of the post.
 

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