SWALES PCT protocol

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    SWALES PCT protocol


    Since this is the current hot topic, I figured I would post this:

     

    Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

    Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

    Here it is:

    I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

    I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.


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    thanks for bringing that over, prolang.
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    Great post.
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    No Doubt! The answer to many of my questions. Great post bro!

    Just two questions..
    1-How do you feel about Letrozole in place of arimidex?
    and
    2-Using SWALE's method... Theoretically- how long could one stay on a AAS cycle and still expect a speedy recovery?
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    1. No Letrozole unless you don't plan using Nolvadex. Letro and nolvadex don't mix. Nolvadex seems to decrease Letro concentrations.

    Drug and hormone interactions of aromatase inhibitors.

    Dowsett M.

    Academic Department of Biochemistry, The Royal Marsden NHS Trust, London, UK.

    The clinical development of aromatase inhibitors has been largely confined to postmenopausal breast cancer patients and strongly guided by pharmacological data. Comparative oestrogen suppression has been helpful in circumstances in which at least one of the comparitors has caused substantially non-maximal aromatase inhibition. However, the triazole inhibitors, letrozole and anastrozole, and the steroidal inhibitor, exemestane, all cause >95% inhibition. Comparisons between these drugs therefore require more sensitive approaches such as the direct measurement of enzyme activity by isotopic means. None of these three agents has significant effects on other endocrine pathways at its clinically applied doses. Pharmacokinetic analyses of the combination of tamoxifen and letrozole have revealed that these drugs interact, resulting in letrozole concentrations approximately 35-40% lower than when letrozole is used alone.



    2. The longer you are on, the longer the recovery no matter what you use.
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    Bobo-
    Thanks for the info...

    As far as PCT I do plan on using Nolva...

    I was referring to using Letro while on cycle.. In case any feminization symptoms occur.

    Are you saying that I souldn't use Letro while on cycle if I plan to use Nolva post cycle?
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    No, don't use them together. If your worried about gyno symptoms then Nolva is the best. Letro will help bloat and keep circulating estrogen low but it doesn't guarantee you won't get gyno. Nolva is a receptor blocker and works better at preventing gyno.
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    bobo , whats ur opinion on the use of hcg (say 2 shots of 2500 iu ) once in 4-6 weeks as opposed to swale's method , i dont see much diff , and the goal of both protocols would be to keep up leydig cell count ...

    In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle.
    also , what about this ? doesnt long term use of hcg decrease receptor affinity for LH and increase negative feedback ?
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    Yes but at such a low dose I think its fine as long as your cycle isn't an insane amount of time.

    As for your first question:

    "Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully)."

    I cna't add anything to that.

    Ask Swale over at CEM and see what he thinks
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    but too much aromatase activity ? say under the influence of test enanthate ? then ?
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    Not sure what he meant by that.
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    Nice posts, thanks guys.

    Dr. Prolangtum, I'm curious, though, what's the cutoff point of cycle length that hcg every week is not needed? I doubt for example, that someone cycling androgens for 2 weeks needs hcg both weeks.

    8 weeks?

    or does this apply to cycles of any duration?

    Thanks
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    I think Swale had said he starts his patients on HCG when they first start HRT.
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    I think HCG should be included in any Test cycle over 8 weeks, or any cycle including Tren or Deca
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    What do you think of this reading? http://www.gotfina.com/forum/showthr...threadid=13311
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    I think anymore than 500-1000 Ius of hcg is overkill. After using it and seeing how sensitive to it I was, I would never advocate using any more than you have to. Start with 500 and go from there. Gauge your progress and if teste size isnt returning to normal then bump it up, but hcg isnt something you want to over do, and the less fluctuations your body goes through with all these hormones the better off you are.

    Oh and be prepared to be horny. I ran a test only cycle and lost all sex drive. I added the hcg and I was a sexual fiend...
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    Originally posted by supersoldier
    What do you think of this reading? http://www.gotfina.com/forum/showthr...threadid=13311
    although SWALE advocates Sat and Sun HCG, Nandi and others think e3d is better, which I agree with.
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    I dont want to hijack this thread, but I'd like to hear SWALE's opinion on running cycles of one week on/one week off so on and so forth instead of running longer cycles to try and cause less post cycle therapy. It seems some people think only going for a week and then taking a week off and repeating a few times will keep your system from totally crashing like it can at the end of a longer cycle. I wonder though if the fluctuations in hormones is almost worst than going for a full eight weeks or so.

    prolangtum?

    SWALE?
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    Originally posted by tagurta
    I wonder though if the fluctuations in hormones is almost worst than going for a full eight weeks or so.

    u answered ur own question .
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    Generally its much easier to suppress the axis(as in time), then have it recover. In other words, you could have suppression in 5 days, but then it could take 2 weeks to a month to totally recover.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    No, don't use them together. If your worried about gyno symptoms then Nolva is the best. Letro will help bloat and keep circulating estrogen low but it doesn't guarantee you won't get gyno. Nolva is a receptor blocker and works better at preventing gyno.
    hey bobo what do u think i should run for ancillaries for this stack
    testenan 500mg/wk (15 weeks)
    deca 400mg/wk (14 weeks)
    drol 100mg/ed (first 4 weeks)
    nolva week17

    and run hcg 250iu 2 times a week for 14 weeks is that good or do i need anything else
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    This thread is like three years old...
  

  
 

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