excellent study on pheraplex

nunes

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Characterisation of the pharmacological profile of desoxymethyltestosterone (Madol), a steroid misused for doping.Diel P, Friedel A, Geyer H, Kamber M, Laudenbach-Leschowsky U, Schänzer W, Thevis M, Vollmer G, Zierau O.
Center for Preventive Doping Research, Institute of Cardiovascular Research and Sports Medicine, Department of Molecular and Cellular Sports Medicine, German Sports University Cologne, 50927 Cologne, Germany. [email protected]

Desoxymethyltestosterone (DMT), also known as Madol, is a steroid recently identified to be misused as a doping agent. Since, the knowledge of functions of this substance is rather limited, it was our aim to characterise the pharmacological profile of DMT and to identify potential adverse side effects. DMT was synthesised, its purity was confirmed and its biological activity was tested. The potency of Madol (DMT) to transactivate androgen receptor (AR) dependent reporter gene expression was two times lower as compared to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Receptor binding tests demonstrate that DMT binds with high selectivity to the AR, binding to the progesterone receptor (PR) was low. In vivo experiments in orchiectomised rats demonstrated that treatment with DMT resulted only in a stimulation of the weight of the levator ani muscle; the prostate and seminal vesicle weights remained unaffected. Like testosterone, administration of DMT resulted in a stimulation of IGF-1 and myostatin mRNA expression in the gastrocnemius muscle. In the prostate proliferation was stimulated by TP (testosteronepropionate), but remained unaffected by DMT. Remarkably, treatment with DMT, in contrast to TP, resulted in a significant increase of the heart weight. In the liver, DMT slightly stimulates the expression of the tyrosine aminotransferase gene (TAT). Our results demonstrate that DMT is a potent AR agonist with an anabolic activity. Besides the levator ani weight, DMT also modulates the gene expression in the musculus gastrocnemius. The observed stimulation of TAT expression in the liver and the significant increase of the heart weight after DMT treatment can be taken as an indication for side effects. Summarizing these data it is obvious that DMT is a powerful anabolic steroid with selective androgen receptor modulators (SARM) like properties and some indications for toxic side effects. Therefore, there is a need for a strict control of a possible misuse.




Characterisation of the pharmacological profile of...[Toxicol Lett. 2007] - PubMed Result
 

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so i guess phera does cause heart enlargement to some degree. I wonder what other hormones out there do too
 
nunes

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so i guess phera does cause heart enlargement to some degree. I wonder what other hormones out there do too
yeah,my only comments goes to the fact that in the study they say that phera is less anabolic than test prop and I thought the opposite and the problem of the heart weight, maybe its better not to overdose it cause the heart enlargement was greater than with test prop.
 
ibanezman08

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hmm...so what are the dangers of heart enlargement?
 
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Google hypetrophic mardiomyopathy. It is one of the main causes of death in heroin/cocaine users.
 
ibanezman08

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wow

and test prop causes heart enlargement too?
 
bb4life

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So phera will for sure cause heart enlargement? sorry for restating this i just want to be absolutely sure.
 
JKurz802

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FOCK!!!

And Im about to start 4 weeks of P Plex!!!! Should I toss it?
Or maybe just does it lower?
 

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Posted a study a long time ago about DMT and heart enlargement. There are studies on Resveratrol showing to reverse this effect.
 
boo99

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Google hypetrophic mardiomyopathy. It is one of the main causes of death in heroin/cocaine users.

he is right here.

when I worked in the cardiac cath lab-- we had lotsa patients with cardiomyopathy----from drugs ------also---
in post open heart recovery-- there were many patients that were past/present drug users that got open heart surgery on their valves.

we are talking abuse though of MANY years years though so who really knows about PP unless there were studies and echocardiograms of before and after.

the echo would be a simple non invasive way to see hypertrophy changes in the heart
 
dsade

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yeah,my only comments goes to the fact that in the study they say that phera is less anabolic than test prop
I'm not seeing where you are getting this. They say it binds with less affinity than DHT, but I don't see an anabolic comparison with TP.
 

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gdamn some of these designers are scary stuff huh, i wanna see a study on mdrol and the heart, EPI also..
 
jamesb2525

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i remember reading something about phera causing heart enlargement to some degree when it first came out. that's why i have not used it yet . i believe it said more enlargement happened on the left side of the heart for some reason i could be wrong..it was a long time ago but something worth looking into. it also said when you stopped taking it the heart would return back to norm size. i wish i could remember more of what the article was all about
 
nunes

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I'm not seeing where you are getting this. They say it binds with less affinity than DHT, but I don't see an anabolic comparison with TP.
you can see it on the full study
PheraPlex enlarges the heart

you can see the all study with graphs here, moral of the story don't use phera if you can use test prop, at least is the way I see it...
 
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bioman

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Though I liked the muscle building effects of PP/Madol, it made me very short of breath to the point where I would wake up a lot at night gasping for breath. Not doing that again.

Dr D brought up this cardiomyopathy issue a long time ago and given the sides I had, it made too much sense to mess with this stuff again.
 

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I have a bunch of PP that I'm not using as well for this reason - unless I decide on a very low dose...
 
mj34

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But test prop does make your a.s.s. hurt more
I was under the assumption that all steroids did increase your heart size to some degree and the same with heavy weight training as well. It does seem like that a lot of these Designers tend to have more risks, but I cant speak persoanlly because the only prohoromone that I used was back in 02 and it was ergo's 1-AD.
 
vidapreta

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I was under the assumption that all steroids did increase your heart size to some degree and the same with heavy weight training as well. It does seem like that a lot of these Designers tend to have more risks, but I cant speak persoanlly because the only prohoromone that I used was back in 02 and it was ergo's 1-AD.
I agree but according to that study pheraplex appears to be one of the worst..
 
mj34

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I agree but according to that study pheraplex appears to be one of the worst..
Wow, kinda crazy huh? I planned on starting with Phera or Epi also, new to designers but been on AAS for a few years now.
 
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nunes

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I`m a mild steroid user, 3 short cycles /year and I do a echocardiography every year, better safe than sorry
 
LakeMountD

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There is quite a bit of evidence in the literature showing androgens to cause cardiomyopathy. Not really all that shocking. Do you think that stimulants don't cause cardiovascular damage and people pop those like candy too.
Yeah, but androgens do so to a much larger degree. Frankly just from being muscular in general you begin getting an S3 and S4 heart sound which is not heard in the normal human heart. S1 is the sound of mitral valve closure and S2 is the sound of aortic valve closure which makes up the lub-dub sound you hear. When you demand more of the heart it begins to enlarge and there are two downsides to the process. The first downside is that there is now less room in the chamber of the heart so you begin affecting EDV (end diastolic volume) and therefore reduce CO (cardiac output). It is actually reversed under normal conditions in which the hypertrophy that occurs is a great benefit but with steroidal use and lifting for your entire life it changes. The second downside is that now the heart requires more oxygen just like any other muscle. More oxygenated blood is taken away from systemic circulation to go to the heart and typically MI occurs later in life due to this.

The "silent killer" referred to here: http://scienceofmuscle.com/forum/steroids/203-high-blood-pressure-silent-killer-true-story.html is chronic hypertension. There are various types (malignant being the worst) but chronic hypertension usually goes unnoticed until MI.

Bottom line, be safe, stay healthy, get regular checkups. ECG's are not that expensive with insurance and frankly if you are going to take these substances you should at least be safe while doing it.
 
sethroberts

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Yeah, but androgens do so to a much larger degree. Frankly just from being muscular in general you begin getting an S3 and S4 heart sound which is not heard in the normal human heart. S1 is the sound of mitral valve closure and S2 is the sound of aortic valve closure which makes up the lub-dub sound you hear. When you demand more of the heart it begins to enlarge and there are two downsides to the process. The first downside is that there is now less room in the chamber of the heart so you begin affecting EDV (end diastolic volume) and therefore reduce CO (cardiac output). It is actually reversed under normal conditions in which the hypertrophy that occurs is a great benefit but with steroidal use and lifting for your entire life it changes. The second downside is that now the heart requires more oxygen just like any other muscle. More oxygenated blood is taken away from systemic circulation to go to the heart and typically MI occurs later in life due to this.

The "silent killer" referred to here: http://scienceofmuscle.com/forum/steroids/203-high-blood-pressure-silent-killer-true-story.html is chronic hypertension. There are various types (malignant being the worst) but chronic hypertension usually goes unnoticed until MI.

Bottom line, be safe, stay healthy, get regular checkups. ECG's are not that expensive with insurance and frankly if you are going to take these substances you should at least be safe while doing it.
Very good info but I am not sure I would say that androgens are worse for your heart than stims. Hell, chronic coffee consumption can cause PVC's and tachycardia. The most alarming part of AAS changes in the heart is the disruption in the development of the capillary bed which can result in a low level ischemic state, particularly in the LV wall and the IVS. In any case, I agree with your message that monitoring is cheap compared to the potential consequences.
 
LakeMountD

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Very good info but I am not sure I would say that androgens are worse for your heart than stims. Hell, chronic coffee consumption can cause PVC's and tachycardia. The most alarming part of AAS changes in the heart is the disruption in the development of the capillary bed which can result in a low level ischemic state, particularly in the LV wall and the IVS. In any case, I agree with your message that monitoring is cheap compared to the potential consequences.
I'll tell ya what. I'll drink coffee 2x/day every day for the rest of my life and you can stick to the androgens and we will see who has the stronger heart later in life. Tachycardia is a fancy way of saying elevated heart rate. Distance runners live by it and if a fast heartbeat meant a higher mortality rate then cross country wouldn't be a sport. If you have a direct growth factor, PLUS you are adding in the fact that you are lifting weights regularly, which means your body requires higher CO (cardiac output) then your heart is going to grow, period. Smaller EDV, greater O2 demand. Both equals disaster.

I am not saying AAS doesn't have other effects on the heart and vascular systems.
 
Trauma1

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Yeah, but androgens do so to a much larger degree. Frankly just from being muscular in general you begin getting an S3 and S4 heart sound which is not heard in the normal human heart. S1 is the sound of mitral valve closure and S2 is the sound of aortic valve closure which makes up the lub-dub sound you hear. When you demand more of the heart it begins to enlarge and there are two downsides to the process. The first downside is that there is now less room in the chamber of the heart so you begin affecting EDV (end diastolic volume) and therefore reduce CO (cardiac output). It is actually reversed under normal conditions in which the hypertrophy that occurs is a great benefit but with steroidal use and lifting for your entire life it changes. The second downside is that now the heart requires more oxygen just like any other muscle. More oxygenated blood is taken away from systemic circulation to go to the heart and typically MI occurs later in life due to this.

The "silent killer" referred to here: High Blood Pressure - "the Silent Killer" - a true story - Science of Muscle Forums is chronic hypertension. There are various types (malignant being the worst) but chronic hypertension usually goes unnoticed until MI.

Bottom line, be safe, stay healthy, get regular checkups. ECG's are not that expensive with insurance and frankly if you are going to take these substances you should at least be safe while doing it.
Stroke Volume (The difference between end diastolic/systolic volume) divided by End Diastolic Volume gives the Ejection Fraction, which is a very significant factor in cardiac output.(LVEF being more significant in terms of cardiac output and systemic perfusion.) LVEF is also very important in determining the prognosis of myocardial myopathies as well.

An EKG may pick up on some none-specific ST segment changes, T wave inversions, or voltage changes, but a 2D-Echo would be needed to accurately determine left ventricular ejection fraction, assess for the significance or potential of cardiomegaly/cardiomyopathy, and get baseline knowledge of the four heart chambers during the cardiac cycle. Previously unknown or undiagnosed congenital anomalies can also contribute to right and/or left ventricular wall thickening.


Cardiac Output

Left Ventricular Hypertrophy

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=x1872322868txt57&size=large


As you've said, hypertension is the most famous "silent killer" of them all, mainly because it's for the most part asymptomatic in nature (not always though.) If left in an uncontrolled state of hypertension for any significant amount of time, the prolonged state of vascular stenosis alone requires the heart muscle to enlarge to meet the increased and persistent state of vascular resistance. Not to mention the major risk factor it also plays in the potential development of hemmoragic stroke, coronary artery disease, and renal failure. I can't tell you how many people i've seen over the years develop renal failure and end up on dialysis all due to poorly controlled hypertension. If a given individual is getting a regular physical with baseline labs tests, there is no reason in this day and age for this epidemic to continue to rise.

The genetic risk factor(s) of a potential disease or disease state is by far the most significant factor in the end, and one that we can not alter. It's sad that i see so many people fall victim to disease states that were demonstrative of what were preventable risk factors. Not everyone has that luxury of having the ability to control the preventable risk factors, but many of the people who do ignore the initial warning signs, or are just ignorant to the thought all together. If you have a family history of a potentialy serious issue, get it evaluated early on with regular subsequent evaluations
 
sethroberts

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I'll tell ya what. I'll drink coffee 2x/day every day for the rest of my life and you can stick to the androgens and we will see who has the stronger heart later in life. Tachycardia is a fancy way of saying elevated heart rate. Distance runners live by it and if a fast heartbeat meant a higher mortality rate then cross country wouldn't be a sport. If you have a direct growth factor, PLUS you are adding in the fact that you are lifting weights regularly, which means your body requires higher CO (cardiac output) then your heart is going to grow, period. Smaller EDV, greater O2 demand. Both equals disaster.

I am not saying AAS doesn't have other effects on the heart and vascular systems.
Hey you are preaching to the choir here. The literature is pretty clear on the adverse cardiovascular effects of AAS -- was just pointing out that it is a little funny how people are freaking out in this thread when stim use seems to not be a concern at all. And while caffeine may be pretty benign I was pointing out how even a benign stim like caffeine has potential cardiovascular risks -- when you start talking about beta agonists, you are at the same level as AAS. When you take beta agonists and AAS together then you really have a cause for concern.
 
LakeMountD

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Stroke Volume (The difference between end diastolic/systolic volume) divided by End Diastolic Volume gives the Ejection Fraction, which is a very significant factor in cardiac output.(LVEF being more significant in terms of cardiac output and systemic perfusion.) LVEF is also very important in determining the prognosis of myocardial myopathies as well.

An EKG may pick up on some none-specific ST segment changes, T wave inversions, or voltage changes, but a 2D-Echo would be needed to accurately determine left ventricular ejection fraction, assess for the significance or potential of cardiomegaly/cardiomyopathy, and get baseline knowledge of the four heart chambers during the cardiac cycle. Previously unknown or undiagnosed congenital anomalies can also contribute to right and/or left ventricular wall thickening.


Cardiac Output

Left Ventricular Hypertrophy

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=x1872322868txt57&size=large


As you've said, hypertension is the most famous "silent killer" of them all, mainly because it's for the most part asymptomatic in nature (not always though.) If left in an uncontrolled state of hypertension for any significant amount of time, the prolonged state of vascular stenosis alone requires the heart muscle to enlarge to meet the increased and persistent state of vascular resistance. Not to mention the major risk factor it also plays in the potential development of hemmoragic stroke, coronary artery disease, and renal failure. I can't tell you how many people i've seen over the years develop renal failure and end up on dialysis all due to poorly controlled hypertension. If a given individual is getting a regular physical with baseline labs tests, there is no reason in this day and age for this epidemic to continue to rise.

The genetic risk factor(s) of a potential disease or disease state is by far the most significant factor in the end, and one that we can not alter. It's sad that i see so many people fall victim to disease states that were demonstrative of what were preventable risk factors. Not everyone has that luxury of having the ability to control the preventable risk factors, but many of the people who do ignore the initial warning signs, or are just ignorant to the thought all together. If you have a family history of a potentialy serious issue, get it evaluated early on with regular subsequent evaluations

Yeah, my knowledge up to this point in my doctorate is strongest with the cardio and renal systems. Ejection fraction must be used in conjunction with other values though since as the heart enlarges it decreases the size of the ventricular cavity and although you may be ejecting 50% of the volume of that cavity it doesn't tell you much about how much blood is actually getting pumped, which is why I mentioned cardiac output. With ventricular hypertrophy there is a large amount of collagen buildup which decreases contractility. This is a huge problem because now the autoregulatory mechanisms such as the Starling effect no longer can control blood pressure adequately.

As for the renal system, that is by far my favorite. People don't give enough credit to the kidneys but they are unbelievably important to the body, just as much so as the heart or brain. They receive a little more than 20% of all blood being pumped to the body. In fact the most important system in blood pressure regulation resides in the kidneys in the RAAS system. In many cases you can lose as much as 80% of the nephrons in your kidney and still be relatively asymptomatic, which is extremely scary. Bottom line, people just don't take care of their kidneys as they should. So keep up on the water intake!
 
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Scary stuff. Makes me regret my previous cycles :(
 

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There is quite a bit of evidence in the literature showing androgens to cause cardiomyopathy. Not really all that shocking. Do you think that stimulants don't cause cardiovascular damage and people pop those like candy too.
I wouldn't take the fact that 'everyone' does it to make it safe...There are thousands that do cocaine...I am not going to jump in line.

With that said, I ran two cycles of the original back in 06 ... never had any serious ramifications from it...
 
sethroberts

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I wouldn't take the fact that 'everyone' does it to make it safe...There are thousands that do cocaine...I am not going to jump in line.

With that said, I ran two cycles of the original back in 06 ... never had any serious ramifications from it...
If you took my statement to mean that people popping them like candy shows that they are safe then you misunderstood. I was pointing out that people should be concerned with the health ramification of AAS AND stimulants as well as any other supplements or drugs they are taking -- there is no free ride.
 
LakeMountD

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Yeah, I mean it is true that caffeine is one of the most abused compounds in the world. It has become normal to drink it though so society accepts it.

They prescribe beta blockers later in life for a reason ;).
 
monsterbox

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so if one took hawthorne berries and celery seed extract to keep bp pretty low.

And..coq10, maybe resveratrol.

Would pheraplex still be a risk to the heart?
 
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Yeah, my knowledge up to this point in my doctorate is strongest with the cardio and renal systems. Ejection fraction must be used in conjunction with other values though since as the heart enlarges it decreases the size of the ventricular cavity and although you may be ejecting 50% of the volume of that cavity it doesn't tell you much about how much blood is actually getting pumped, which is why I mentioned cardiac output. With ventricular hypertrophy there is a large amount of collagen buildup which decreases contractility. This is a huge problem because now the autoregulatory mechanisms such as the Starling effect no longer can control blood pressure adequately.

As for the renal system, that is by far my favorite. People don't give enough credit to the kidneys but they are unbelievably important to the body, just as much so as the heart or brain. They receive a little more than 20% of all blood being pumped to the body. In fact the most important system in blood pressure regulation resides in the kidneys in the RAAS system. In many cases you can lose as much as 80% of the nephrons in your kidney and still be relatively asymptomatic, which is extremely scary. Bottom line, people just don't take care of their kidneys as they should. So keep up on the water intake!
I agree with everything you've said about cardiac output. It is the primary equation when determining the adequacy of overall cardiac function. I brought up ejection fraction specifically because it's vital in the diagnosis, as well as the long term prognosis of those people who are affected by either a dilated, hypertrophic, or restrictive cardiomyopathy pathology.

The kidneys are most definitely overlooked in their role of fluid and blood pressure management. ACE inhibitors have come a long way in hypertensive management.....especially those with a prior cardiac histroy.


BTW - Great convo, lake.

I really do enjoy threads of this nature. Not only are the informative and interesting for all involved and observing, but they provide a great intellectual stimulus environment. :)
 
nattydisaster

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so if one took hawthorne berries and celery seed extract to keep bp pretty low.

And..coq10, maybe resveratrol.

Would pheraplex still be a risk to the heart?
Yes. These are just OTC supplements. Do they work? Yes, to an extent, but nothing like prescriptions, obviously. Steroids (not just phera) are going to put more stress on the heart than OTC meds will relieve.

But that's not to say that you don't need the OTC support supplements. They do help, and a little is always better than nothing.
 
monsterbox

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i have perscription beta blocker that I do not use...this could be used for the BP if it gets too high? So is it the BP increase from phera that could cause heart enlargement?

In otherwords if I keep BP low I should not have any enlargement?
 

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