Building my first pin test cycle .... need input

[steveo1312]

The plan

Test E + EQ / 10 wks Test + 12 wks EQ

This is my first pin and test cycle (NOT my first cycle ever I did orals). This is my basic layout but I am more or less looking for input on what to change and do. There seems to be a lot of variation that people do for test and I am not sure whats the safest bet.


Test E (8 wks at 300 with a 2 week taper off)

300/300/300/300/300/300/300/300/225/175


This is what I have seen done but not sure why if I am using nolva. Let me know if I dont need the taper.

EQ (12 wks at 400)

400x12

I figure since the test has a life of about 15 days this would work out great since EQ needs about 12 wks to be effective.




NOW PCT is confusing here

I have liquid Nolva so thats covered. But I also see people taking natural test boosters with the PCT. Is it needed ????




MAJOR QUESTIONS ----

- Natty test booster for PCT needed ???? Anything else I need to add to PCT ???

- Should I take an AI ???? I see some people take small doses the whole time where others dont take it at all.

- And does my cycle seem correct for a first time test user ???




Sorry its a rambled mess of thoughts.

 

[nosnmiveins]

first cycle should be test only @ 500mg/week for 10-12 weeks. tapering is a waste of gear

u can use the EQ if u want but if u experience negative sides u wont know which compound its from. EQ needs to be run 14-16 weeks to truly benefit. test needs to be run the whole time WITH the EQ, preferably longer than the EQ.

Nolva only PCT is fine.

i would use an AI in the beginning of the cycle since u probably dont know if ur gyno prone or not. through the cycle u can slowly taper down and drop it completely if u feel u dont need it.

 

[dbow196]

Test at 300mg a week is kind of low IMO. You might want to look at 500mg a week and drop the EQ for your first run. Like what Nos said, you want to not throw too many things into your first run. When I ran test solo I did not use an AI, as I did not have any problems with gyno. I had it on hand just in case of course.

Also, keep in mind that test takes a while to kick-in if you are not using an oral to jump start it.

 

[holyintellect]

Test enanthate for 8 weeks is probably just a tad bit short for optimal gains, but it will certainly work....300mgs is DEFINITELY a little on the conservative side, and I caution you against running it that low....just as when you use too much gear you have to worry about the risk to benefit ratio, the same logic applies to using too little. At some point, the suppression and gyno risks (just to name a few) will outweigh the results you'll see at that dose...IMO, 400mgs is a bare minimum for enanthate....Also, I absolutely do not believe in tapering....

As far as EQ goes, should you decide to keep it in, which I dont think you should, then you'll be OK at 400mgs....it doesnt need to be run with test, you can run it a few weeks longer, but there wont really be much benefit to it other than the fact that if you dont, you'll have an extremely short and ineffective EQ cycle. Ive used it myself, as well as others Ive worked with alone at 600mgs and loved it....nothing crazy, but still a nice cycle.

holy

 

[luke1984]

Also, there's no need to taper down injectables. The compound is already broken down slowly because of the long ester.

 

[UnrealMachine]

300 test is on the low side but considering he's 159 pounds, i bet it will work fine.

 

[CleetusVanDam]

i would not rec going below 500mg test E, with the ester being that long 300mg would yield little to no noticable affects, i would also run it to the 12 week mark along with the EQ, that will let you ease into the pct 4-5 weeks beyond your last injection

 

[steveo1312]

Ok so maybe I will drop the EQ and run test E for 12 weeks at closer to 500.

Shouldn't I start the nolva about 15 days after the last injection since thats the life of the test ??? Or is 15 days the half life ??

 

[UnrealMachine]

i would not rec going below 500mg test E, with the ester being that long 300mg would yield little to no noticable affects, i would also run it to the 12 week mark along with the EQ, that will let you ease into the pct 4-5 weeks beyond your last injection

just pointing out, 300mg @ 159 lbs is equivalent to 481mg @ 255 lbs. I bet you would feel noticable effects from that.

Ok so maybe I will drop the EQ and run test E for 12 weeks at closer to 500.

Shouldn't I start the nolva about 15 days after the last injection since thats the life of the test ??? Or is 15 days the half life ??

You will make better gains that way, i am just pointing out that the whole 500mg/ew number that everybody is fixated on is kind of silly because everything should be in proportion to bodyweight. Recommending 500mg ew for everyone's first cycle doesn't make sense because some people are 150 pounds and some people are 300 pounds. Telling everybody to take the same amount of gear makes no sense to me. Yes you can start nolva about 2 weeks after the last injection.

 

[freqfly]

Personally, I would stick with a Test only cycle at 10 weeks. 500mg per week, pinned 250 on Monday and 250 on Thursday. I used only Nolva for PCT, 4 weeks, and was fine and kept all of my gains, minus a little water weight. No need to mix multiple compounds for your first time as you won't know which is giving you sides/results. You should yeild fantastic gains off of a Test only cycle.

 

[steveo1312]

just pointing out, 300mg @ 159 lbs is equivalent to 481mg @ 255 lbs. I bet you would feel noticable effects from that.



You will make better gains that way, i am just pointing out that the whole 500mg/ew number that everybody is fixated on is kind of silly because everything should be in proportion to bodyweight. Recommending 500mg ew for everyone's first cycle doesn't make sense because some people are 150 pounds and some people are 300 pounds. Telling everybody to take the same amount of gear makes no sense to me. Yes you can start nolva about 2 weeks after the last injection.

Very true .... I am pretty light in comparision to some that ran 500mg cycles.

 

[holyintellect]

i am just pointing out that the whole 500mg/ew number that everybody is fixated on is kind of silly because everything should be in proportion to bodyweight. Recommending 500mg ew for everyone's first cycle doesn't make sense because some people are 150 pounds and some people are 300 pounds.

What you must remember is that there is a minimum threshold where it becomes more of a risk to benefit situation....In other words, even though hes only 159lbs, he very well may have the same amount of endogenous testosterone as the 240lb guy....therefor, by taking a very minimal dose he essentially could simpy be suppressing his own production and replacing it with exogenous test. It is impossible to guess that threshold, so logically it makes sense to err on the higher side....Im sure he could make some gains on 300mgs, but the whole point of dialogue here is to promote the best scenerio....I dont feel comfortable with anyone taking 300mgs because its likely not optimal. I have, in working with clients for a long time, seen guys take 250mgs and literally look like they were simply taking some creatine.....its because that 250mgs didnt elevate their test levels above what they had naturally once they were suppressed.....another note, some test will aromatize, etc....its not like you will reap the benefits from every single mg you inject, so running it at a bare bones level is equally as irresponsible as advising 1gram for a first cycle, IMO.
holy

 

[holyintellect]

What you must remember is that there is a minimum threshold where it becomes more of a risk to benefit situation....In other words, even though hes only 159lbs, he very well may have the same amount of endogenous testosterone as the 240lb guy....therefor, by taking a very minimal dose he essentially could simpy be suppressing his own production and replacing it with exogenous test. It is impossible to guess that threshold, so logically it makes sense to err on the higher side....Im sure he could make some gains on 300mgs, but the whole point of dialogue here is to promote the best scenerio....I dont feel comfortable with anyone taking 300mgs because its likely not optimal. I have, in working with clients for a long time, seen guys take 250mgs and literally look like they were simply taking some creatine.....its because that 250mgs didnt elevate their test levels above what they had naturally once they were suppressed.....another note, some test will aromatize, etc....its not like you will reap the benefits from every single mg you inject, so running it at a bare bones level is equally as irresponsible as advising 1gram for a first cycle, IMO.
holy

I just reread this, and Im not sure if it actually make sense....I cant really find better verbage to sum it up though, so I hope it can be interpreted....

holy

 

[nosnmiveins]

I just reread this, and Im not sure if it actually make sense....I cant really find better verbage to sum it up though, so I hope it can be interpreted....

holy

i got it :thumbsup:

 

[steveo1312]

I just reread this, and Im not sure if it actually make sense....I cant really find better verbage to sum it up though, so I hope it can be interpreted....

holy

Yeah I understand. You more or less were just saying 300 may just but a small bump over my natty after suppression so thats why most people dose at 500.

 

[xfreddyx]

i would go with Test E @ 500 or 600mg for 10 or 12 weeks and boldenone @ 400mg for the same time.

Once that Test E and boldenone undecilyonate have very similiar half-lives IMO you shoud ran both for the same time.

 

[nosnmiveins]

i would go with Test E @ 500 or 600mg for 10 or 12 weeks and boldenone @ 400mg for the same time.

Once that Test E and boldenone undecilyonate have very similiar half-lives IMO you shoud ran both for the same time.

its always a good idea to run test longer than other compounds, but in the case of EQ theres an exception because its so mild.

EQ really needs to be run 14+ weeks though

 

[UnrealMachine]

I get what you're saying Holy, and i do agree... it's really not worth it if you cycle and don't use enough test to make much gains. He'll be better off at 500.

I am just trying to bring bodyweight into the equation though. While he MAY have more natural test levels than someone that's 240 pounds -- correct me if i'm wrong, but ON AVERAGE steroid users should need doses that are linearly proportional to their bodyweight.

To use the ratios again, this guy running 500mg of test on his first cycle is equivalent ot me running 692mg of test, which surely no one would recommend for me. I posted about my first cycle and i was told to do 500mg. I said **** that, i'm doing 600.

 

[holyintellect]

He'll be better off at 500.

Maybe....since we dont know anything about his test levels now, its entirely possible that 300mgs would turn him into a beast...since we dont know, and its reasonably safe to do so, I advise bumping it up a tad bit...to maybe 400mgs...

but ON AVERAGE steroid users should need doses that are linearly proportional to their bodyweight.

Probably so....I think generally a guy 300lbs is gonna use more than a guy who is 200lbs...obviously there are a ton of variables, but thats probably a safe assumption.

 

[MSE]

I am currently on my first inj. cycle and am at 400 mg/wk of both EQ and Test P. I was thinking exactly along your lines at first, EQ at 400 and Test at 250, nos and holy advised me to bump it up to 400, so I did. So far so good, 2 weeks in and some nice strength/weight gains with little to no sides, maybe a little test flu, and still am probably not seeing anything from the EQ yet. Keeping the EQ in or taking it out I would agree to bump the test to 400 wk.

 

[mooch2321]

What you must remember is that there is a minimum threshold where it becomes more of a risk to benefit situation....In other words, even though hes only 159lbs, he very well may have the same amount of endogenous testosterone as the 240lb guy....therefor, by taking a very minimal dose he essentially could simpy be suppressing his own production and replacing it with exogenous test. It is impossible to guess that threshold, so logically it makes sense to err on the higher side....Im sure he could make some gains on 300mgs, but the whole point of dialogue here is to promote the best scenerio....I dont feel comfortable with anyone taking 300mgs because its likely not optimal. I have, in working with clients for a long time, seen guys take 250mgs and literally look like they were simply taking some creatine.....its because that 250mgs didnt elevate their test levels above what they had naturally once they were suppressed.....another note, some test will aromatize, etc....its not like you will reap the benefits from every single mg you inject, so running it at a bare bones level is equally as irresponsible as advising 1gram for a first cycle, IMO.
holy

holy your opinion is always appreciated....even if no one can understand a word you just said:icon_lol:

 

[holyintellect]

holy your opinion is always appreciated....even if no one can understand a word you just said:icon_lol:

LOL:run:

 

[heavyiron]

I get what you're saying Holy, and i do agree... it's really not worth it if you cycle and don't use enough test to make much gains. He'll be better off at 500.

I am just trying to bring bodyweight into the equation though. While he MAY have more natural test levels than someone that's 240 pounds -- correct me if i'm wrong, but ON AVERAGE steroid users should need doses that are linearly proportional to their bodyweight.

To use the ratios again, this guy running 500mg of test on his first cycle is equivalent ot me running 692mg of test, which surely no one would recommend for me. I posted about my first cycle and i was told to do 500mg. I said **** that, i'm doing 600.

I have been reaserching aas for a while now and I cannot remember a correlation between body weight and dosing testosterone for performance purposes.
I have seen dosing guidlines for orals in regards to body weight but those were to illicit a specific effect like recovering from burns or raising RBC.
It is very hard to take too much testosterone. I kinda cringe posting this because I don't want guys to administer high doses but I have used over 2.5 grams in a week. I did experience sides and will never venture that high again but the doses everyone has recommended here are quite safe.
I have spent considerable time researching the effects of testosterone in doses up to 600mg per week for 20 weeks and even wrote an essay on a clinical human trial for MD and the groups of guys were not split up into groups based on bodyweight. Additionally, the only group to report sides other than acne was the 600mg group who had a slight reduction in HDL after 16 weeks.
I can confidently say that 500mg per week of TE is not a dangerous dose for the average adult male.


btw, If you do find dosing guidlines using testosterone based on body weight for performance purposes I would be interested in the data.

 

[steveo1312]

Well I am picking up my stuff this weekend.


The new plan

STAPLES during - Milk thistle , multi , whey

12 Weeks of Test E
14 Weeks of EQ (to finish off the Test E 15 day life)


PCT

Nolva

Week 1 40/40/40/20/20/20/20
Week 2-3 20 ALL
Week 4 10 ALL



I know I am going with 2 vials of Test E and am thinking not sure about running the EQ or not.

I know that people say that EQ helps with better quality gains. Would the EQ help me to get less test bloat ?? Or will I still possibly need to toss in an AI if bloat gets bad ?? Also due to being a long ester do I need to pin test twice a week or just once? Also correct me if I am wrong but EQ is twice a week..



Please feel free to add or adjust my PCT. It may need some help due to having no true personal knowledge of a test cycle yet.

 

[WeightShift]

300mg is a TRT dose regardless of your weight. A healthy male of 300lbs should have similar test levels to a healthy male of 200lbs. Our body's mechanisms are built uniformly, its the genetics that create differentiation.

 

[UnrealMachine]

300mg is a TRT dose regardless of your weight. A healthy male of 300lbs should have similar test levels to a healthy male of 200lbs. Our body's mechanisms are built uniformly, its the genetics that create differentiation.

Similar test levels but different quantities of actual testosterone. A bigger person should produce more natural testosterone, spread out over a bigger body = same levels yes. When taking steroids, there are more cells and so more receptor sites and so a need for a relatively higher dose.

Bigger people, even with the same bf%, will still have an overall greater mass of adipose tissue that will respond to the androgens.

Bigger people, on the average, need a bigger dose of any drug. I don't see why steroids would be different. If steroids work by binding to the androgen receptors on cells and transcribing certain DNA segments, a person with more mass that has more cells needs more androgens.

 

[nosnmiveins]

run the test and EQ the same length, preferably test longer. but personally i wouldnt use both compounds in a first cycle

 

[WeightShift]

Similar test levels but different quantities of actual testosterone. A bigger person should produce more natural testosterone, spread out over a bigger body = same levels yes. When taking steroids, there are more cells and so more receptor sites and so a need for a relatively higher dose.

Bigger people, even with the same bf%, will still have an overall greater mass of adipose tissue that will respond to the androgens.

Bigger people, on the average, need a bigger dose of any drug. I don't see why steroids would be different. If steroids work by binding to the androgen receptors on cells and transcribing certain DNA segments, a person with more mass that has more cells needs more androgens.

Great post. I'm going to go through some of my old TRT packets. There was one great pamphlet on TRT dosing and explanations for phenotype differences. I'll get it scanned when I find it and post it up.

 

[heavyiron]

Similar test levels but different quantities of actual testosterone. A bigger person should produce more natural testosterone, spread out over a bigger body = same levels yes. When taking steroids, there are more cells and so more receptor sites and so a need for a relatively higher dose.

Bigger people, even with the same bf%, will still have an overall greater mass of adipose tissue that will respond to the androgens.

Bigger people, on the average, need a bigger dose of any drug. I don't see why steroids would be different. If steroids work by binding to the androgen receptors on cells and transcribing certain DNA segments, a person with more mass that has more cells needs more androgens.

Do you have any clinical trials to support this theory?

 

[Brolic]

why did u pick EQ..Im goin to sent u a pm tomorrow too

 

[steveo1312]

why did u pick EQ..Im goin to sent u a pm tomorrow too

I didnt go with the EQ. Just going straight Test E for 12 weeks at 500.

Eq was just to open up the hunger gates. It makes your stomach bottemless. Also seems to give some better quality muscle when added to test cycles.


What do you guys think of using m-drol 10/10/10 for a small jump starter ??? With the test lasting the 12 weeks it should help me keep a large percent of the drol gains as well. Kinda of a win win at low dose for a jump and I can use left over cycle support for 5-6wks.