8 week+ oral cycle

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    8 week+ oral cycle


    Just looking for some ideas.
    Next cycle I run is going to be part of a massive cut to hopefully get me down to 7-8%. I'd like to extend the length as long as possible. I do not want to use BOLD because it's too expensive.

    How about somethin like this:
    Week-
    1-5 Trenadrol
    6 Trenadrol/Hdrol
    7-10 Hdrol

    Psycho? Stupid? TOTALLY AWESOME? Other ideas?

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    whisper: injectables

    here's my other advice: if you are going to run orals for 10 weeks, try to get some bloodwork yeah? during week 6, then you can decide how much more to do.
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    No pinning. If that were an option I never would have started with orals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Just looking for some ideas.
    Next cycle I run is going to be part of a massive cut to hopefully get me down to 7-8%. I'd like to extend the length as long as possible. I do not want to use BOLD because it's too expensive.

    How about somethin like this:
    Week-
    1-5 Trenadrol
    6 Trenadrol/Hdrol
    7-10 Hdrol

    Psycho? Stupid? TOTALLY AWESOME? Other ideas?
    Looks fine. What doses you thinking?

    100mg of everything throughout?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Looks fine. What doses you thinking?

    100mg of everything throughout?
    Donno. Probably something conservative just to be safe. During this cycle I'll also be using a bunch of other cutting stuff too. Probably T3, Shred Matrix, DCP, ECA, who knows. Whatever will help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Donno. Probably something conservative just to be safe.
    You could run the trenadrol at 50mg's (how much is in a cap? I'm thinking of Dienedrone) for the first 3 weeks then move to 100mg/day. 50mg of Halo the first 2 weeks followed by 100mg to finish. I've seen much harsher cycles. I'd think this would be rather safe assuming you understand your body.
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    I'd use the ECA and drop the other stuff. Although I've heard really good things about Shred Matrix and its ability to suppress appetite.

    Diet is your key here. Think of the steroids as added mass retainers.
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    There isn't anything wrong with it. You're smart enough to already know to take liver support and drink gallons of water.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    I'd use the ECA and drop the other stuff. Although I've heard really good things about Shred Matrix and its ability to suppress appetite.

    Diet is your key here. Think of the steroids as added mass retainers.
    Or Clen/T3!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    I'd use the ECA and drop the other stuff. Although I've heard really good things about Shred Matrix and its ability to suppress appetite.

    Diet is your key here. Think of the steroids as added mass retainers.
    I need something for appetite, so the shred will be in there. Only reason I'll be using steroids is to retain mass. Trenadrol seems to lean me out too. I kind of want to try T3 also.

    I wont be using clen. I'll be doing a lot of cardio and I don't want to **** with my heart. There are also legalities prohibiting me from using it also.
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    how about cycling clen with Ketotifen
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    Clen is a BP nightmare for myself. Another option might be albuterol which will aid in your cardio performance.
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    Not gonna mess with clen or albuterol
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    Dnp?
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    lol nope. Seems a little too dangerous for me.
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    I'd like to see this logged if you do it. Are you going to be incorporating anything thermogenic? Ephedra and caffiene or something? I know you don't want to mess up your heart, but if you don't go overboard... although stacking this with h drol and tren I am not sure about, could mess with blood pressure...

    At any rate, only dropped in to tell you to log it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Psycho? Stupid? TOTALLY AWESOME? Other ideas?
    All of the above. Seriously, I ran a similar cutting cycle with epi and hdrol and was able to lose fat at an extremely rapid rate while retaining mass. This was due to the fact I dropped my cals down to around 2000 (maintenance is around 3000) and continued to train and perform cardio hard. As long as your pct is sound SHOULD be fine. I personally steer clear of trenadrol though...irritates the nips bad.
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    the cut i'm planning to do in summer 2008 will probably be 8 weeks of Testpop & tren ace with clen cycled. I don't know why you don't want to pin or do clen, i figure trenadrol/hdrol and ECA is still a good bet for you though. I would shy away from DNP as well, lol.

    @ Royd clen doesn't seem to impact my BP very much at all, but yea if i did i can see why you might shy away from Trenadrol which is supposed to jack up BP
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    T3 can be dangerous as well. Unless your referring to a supp that I am not aware of...
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    so you know, steroids can be just as dangerous for your heart
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    Hdrol Clen and EPI,

    bridge from the Tren to the HDROL EPI and run clen the whole way through.
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    No clen!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    No clen!
    What about clen rugger?
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    how bout lipolyze and somalyze (species nutrition)
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    Not sure what that stuff is!
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    how bout lipolyze and somalyze (species nutrition)
    hey man how well did you clen cycle work for you? I think you have some balls to run it with hdrol though, Ive read enough info on how clen CAN cause heart probs.. but stacked with hdrol?? how was your blood pressure?
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    Quote Originally Posted by citystreets View Post
    hey man how well did you clen cycle work for you? I think you have some balls to run it with hdrol though, Ive read enough info on how clen CAN cause heart probs.. but stacked with hdrol?? how was your blood pressure?
    bp was good, and i didnt really use much for liver support either,

    it was clen hdrol and epi as a stack ended up dropping 12 pounds of fat in 4 weeks and being strogner then i was 4 weeks prior with my SDROL WINZTROL cycle.
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    Clen and T3 are like any of grey-area drug on here. Be smart and vigilant and you're fine. I've done clen a few times and never had an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeightShift View Post
    Clen and T3 are like any of grey-area drug on here. Be smart and vigilant and you're fine. I've done clen a few times and never had an issue.
    Im sure you guys feel just fine and maybe a few blood tests prove it but how many people get an ultrasound of their heart? Its kinda scary actualy to see how many people with leaky heart valves or englarged left ventricles that have cycled. An Echocardiogram is the only way to know, who knows maybe ill try it next and post the results lol. Damn i think we are all addicts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Not sure what that stuff is!
    Lipolyze
    Amount Per Serving % DV
    Vitamin E 20IU 67%
    Propionyl-L-Carnitine 500mg *
    Green Tea Extract 300mg *
    Camillia Sinesis Leaf (EGCG 45%)
    Usnic Acid 12mg *
    Guggulsterone Z And Guggulsterone E 95% 10mg *
    C-Amp 2mg *


    Somalyze
    Amount Per Serving % DV
    Vitamin E 80IU 267%
    GABA 2000mg **
    Propionyl-L-Carnitine 500mg **
    Phosphatidyl Choline / Phosphatidylethanolamine 150mg **
    Usnic Acid 12mg **
    Melatonin 3mg **

    so low dose 48mg /ish Usnic acid, if you do use this post up how it goes for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by citystreets View Post
    Im sure you guys feel just fine and maybe a few blood tests prove it but how many people get an ultrasound of their heart? Its kinda scary actualy to see how many people with leaky heart valves or englarged left ventricles that have cycled. An Echocardiogram is the only way to know, who knows maybe ill try it next and post the results lol. Damn i think we are all addicts.

    how many people do that with DMT?

    i dont feel like it happens at the doses we use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayzen View Post
    Lipolyze
    Amount Per Serving % DV
    Vitamin E 20IU 67%
    Propionyl-L-Carnitine 500mg *
    Green Tea Extract 300mg *
    Camillia Sinesis Leaf (EGCG 45%)
    Usnic Acid 12mg *
    Guggulsterone Z And Guggulsterone E 95% 10mg *
    C-Amp 2mg *


    Somalyze
    Amount Per Serving % DV
    Vitamin E 80IU 267%
    GABA 2000mg **
    Propionyl-L-Carnitine 500mg **
    Phosphatidyl Choline / Phosphatidylethanolamine 150mg **
    Usnic Acid 12mg **
    Melatonin 3mg **

    so low dose 48mg /ish Usnic acid, if you do use this post up how it goes for you.

    you can go up to 80mg of usnic acid. i wouldnt exceed 100 at any point ever.
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    FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT WISH TO READ A LONG POST ABOUT THE DANGERS OF USNIC ACID, PLEASE SKIP TO THE NEXT POST! Hope this helps in your decision. I've heard that low doses should be just fine tho... but who knows =D



    Severe hepatotoxicity associated with use of a dietary supplement containing usnic acid.

    Sanchez W, Maple JT, Burgart LJ, Kamath PS.

    Division of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, Department of Internal Medicine, Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.

    Dietary supplements containing usnic acid are marketed for weight loss and have been associated with hepatotoxicity. The specific ingredient responsible for the hepatotoxicity is currently unknown. We describe 2 patients who developed severe hepatotoxicity within 3 months of taking a dietary supplement containing usnic acid. One patient developed fulminant hepatic failure requiring emergency liver transplantation; the other developed submassive hepatic necrosis but did not require transplantation. Thorough investigation, including histopathological examination of the liver, revealed no other cause of acute liver injury. Usnic acid hepatotoxicity should be considered as a possible etiologic factor in patients presenting with fulminant hepatic failure, especially if they have been taking dietary supplements for weight reduction.

    ----------------

    Quantitative determination of usnic acid in Usnea lichen and its products by reversed-phase liquid chromatography with photodiode array detector.

    Ji X, Khan IA.

    The University of Mississippi, National Center for Natural Products Research, Research Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy, University, MS 38677, USA.

    Usnic acid, a lichen substance, has a wide range of pharmaceutical applications, including antibiotic, antimycotic, antifeedant, antitubercular, antitumor, and analgesic activities. Some products containing usnic acid are marketed as weight control supplements; however, hepatotoxicity and acute liver failures were reported as severe side effects. The usnic acid content present in the plant materials and market products was analyzed by reversed-phase high-pressure liquid chromatography with a photodiode array detector at 233 nm. A Waters XTerra RP18 (150 x 4.6 mm; 5 microm particle size) column was the stationary phase; mobile phase was aqueous 0.1% acetic acid and acetonitrile gradient at flow rate of 1.0 mL/min. The temperature was held constant at 30 degrees C. The retention time of usnic acid was approximately 13.3 min. Acetone extraction of the samples took place with sonication. The precision of the method was confirmed by a standard deviation below 3.0% (n=3) and usnic acid recovery was 99.0%. Limit of detection was 0.4 microg/mL and the response was linear from 1.4 to 570.0 microg/mL with a correlation coefficient (R2) of 0.9991. The content of usnic acid in 4 raw materials and 22 finished products was analyzed.

    -------------------

    Fulminant liver failure due to usnic acid for weight loss.

    Durazo FA, Lassman C, Han SH, Saab S, Lee NP, Kawano M, Saggi B, Gordon S, Farmer DG, Yersiz H, Goldstein RL, Ghobrial M, Busuttil RW.

    Division of Digestive Diseases, Department of Medicin,; Dumont-UCLA Liver Transplant Center, University of California, Los Angeles, California 90095-9302, USA.

    The use of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) in developed countries has increased significantly over the years. Among the most popular are the weight loss supplements or "fat burners." Liver failure due to these popular remedies has been widely recognized. Usnic acid has been an ingredient of dietary supplements that cause liver failure. Its hepatotoxicity has not been recognized because it is usually mixed with other ingredients that are presumably hepatotoxic. We describe a case of a 28-yr-old woman who presented with fulminant liver failure requiring orthotopic liver transplantation, after taking pure usnic acid for weight loss. This is the first report on fulminant liver failure associated with the ingestion of pure usnic acid. A discussion about hepatotoxicity of the different compounds of dietary supplements is presented. This is a reminder for the clinicians about the potential side effects of CAM.

    -------------------

    Usnic acid-induced necrosis of cultured mouse hepatocytes: inhibition of mitochondrial function and oxidative stress.

    Han D, Matsumaru K, Rettori D, Kaplowitz N.

    USC-UCLA Research Center for Alcoholic and Pancreatic Disease and University of Southern California Research Center for Liver Diseases, Keck School of Medicine, University of Southern California, 2011 Zonal Avenue, HMR 101, Los Angeles, CA 90089-9121, USA.

    Usnic acid, a lichen acid, is a compound found in crude medicines and dietary supplements, including Lipokinetix, a supplement marketed as a weight loss agent that caused hepatotoxicity and acute liver failure in patients. In this study, we examined the toxicity of usnic acid and assessed whether usnic acid may be contributing to hepatotoxicity caused by Lipokinetix. In primary cultured murine hepatocytes, usnic acid treatment (5 microM) resulted in 98% necrosis within 16 hr (no apoptosis was detected). Usnic acid treatment was associated with early inhibition and uncoupling of the electron transport chain in mitochondria of cultured hepatocytes. This inhibition of mitochondria by usnic acid corresponded with a fall in ATP levels in hepatocytes. In isolated liver mitochondria, usnic acid was observed to directly inhibit and uncouple oxidative phosphorylation. Oxidative stress appears to be central in usnic acid-induced hepatotoxicity based on the following findings: (1) pretreatment with antioxidants (butylated hydroxytoluene+Vitamin E) decreased usnic acid-induced necrosis by nearly 70%; (2) depletion of mitochondrial GSH with diethylmaleate increased susceptibility of hepatocytes to usnic acid; (3) usnic acid treatment was associated with increase free radical generation, measured using the fluorescent probe, dichlorodihydrofluorescin. The source of reactive oxygen species after usnic acid treatment include autoxidation of usnic acid and increased hydrogen peroxide generation by mitochondria caused by usnic acid inhibition of the respiratory chain, with the latter playing a more prominent role. Taken together, our results suggest that usnic acid is a strong hepatotoxic agent that triggers oxidative stress and disrupts the normal metabolic processes of cells. Usnic acid therefore may contribute to the hepatotoxic effects of Lipokinetix and its use in any supplement must come into question.

    ---------------------

    Hepatotoxic effect of (+)usnic acid from Usnea siamensis Wainio in rats, isolated rat hepatocytes and isolated rat liver mitochondria.

    Pramyothin P, Janthasoot W, Pongnimitprasert N, Phrukudom S, Ruangrungsi N.

    Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Chulalongkorn University, Bangkok 10330, Thailand.

    Hepatotoxic effect of (+)usnic acid, the active constituent of Usnea siamensis Wainio was studied in rats, isolated rat hepatocytes and isolated rat liver mitochondria. In rats, after treatment with high dose of (+)usnic acid (200 mg/kg per day, i.p.) for 5 days, there was no significant change in serum transaminase activity (serum AST, ALT) while the electron micrographs showed apparent morphological damage of mitochondria and endoplasmic reticulum. (+)Usnic acid at high dose (1 mM) as well as carbon tetrachloride (CCl4, the reference hepatotoxin) induced loss of cell membrane integrity in isolated rat hepatocytes by increasing the release of cellular transaminases (AST, ALT). Increase in lipid peroxidation, decrease in glutathione (GSH) content and increase in aniline hydroxylase activity (CYP 2E1) were also found. Combination of (+)usnic acid and CCl4 showed the additive results. (+)Usnic acid (0.15-6 microM) possessed uncoupling activity in isolated rat liver mitochondria. It stimulated respiration by mitochondria respiring with glutamate plus malate or succinate as substrates and activated ATPase activity. Increasing concentration of (+)usnic acid (>6 microM) exhibited loss of respiratory control and ATP synthesis. In conclusion, hepatotoxic effect of high dose (+)usnic acid may involve its reactive metabolite(s), causing loss of integrity of membrane like structures, resulting in destruction of mitochondrial respiration and oxidative phosphorylation.

    --------------------

    Lichen acids as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation of mouse-liver mitochondria.

    Abo-Khatwa AN, al-Robai AA, al-Jawhari DA.

    Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Science, King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

    Three lichen acids-namely, (+)usnic acid, vulpinic acid, and atranorin-were isolated from three lichen species (Usnea articulata, Letharia vulpina, and Parmelia tinctorum, respectively). The effects of these lichen products on mice-liver mitochondrial oxidative functions in various respiratory states and on oxidative phosphorylation were studied polarographically in vitro. The lichen acids exhibited characteristics of the 2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP), a classical uncoupler of oxidative phosphorylation. Thus, they released respiratory control and oligomycin inhibited respiration, hindered ATP synthesis, and enhanced Mg(+2)-ATPase activity. (+)Usnic acid at a concentration of 0.75 microM inhibited ADP/O ratio by 50%, caused maximal stimulation of both state-4 respiration (100%) and ATPase activity (300%). Atranorin was the only lichen acid with no significant effect on ATPase. The uncoupling effect was dose-dependent in all cases. The minimal concentrations required to cause complete uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation were as follows: (+)usnic acid (1 microM), vulpinic acid, atranorin (5 microM) and DNP (50 microM). It was postulated that the three lichen acids induce uncoupling by acting on the inner mitochondrial membrane through their lipophilic properties and protonophoric activities.
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    those are in extreme doses of usnic acid bro,

    and the addition of anti Os signifigantly reduce these problems
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    those are in extreme doses of usnic acid bro,

    and the addition of anti Os signifigantly reduce these problems
    Right, but these cases were also when Usnic acid was used alone, not stacked with oral steroids/PH's.

    It's just food for thought, might want to take the liver precautions seriously on this one.
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    53.27%

    I was planning to do something similar at some point. I though I'd do a much larger overlap though given the slow kick-in time of h-drol. Something like this:

    Week 1: Tren
    Week 2-4: Tren + Hdrol
    Week 5-7: H-drol

    I might actually use promagon (for the libido boost) but the priciple is the same.

    EDIT: This will actually be a strength cycle though not a cut.
  37. crazyfool405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxmadman View Post
    Right, but these cases were also when Usnic acid was used alone, not stacked with oral steroids/PH's.

    It's just food for thought, might want to take the liver precautions seriously on this one.
    of course, as always, however i wouldnt use it while on orals, because there are orals that can help with Recomp,

    i would do it with clen and T3 though without question.
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    How about this cut cycle

    1-14 EQ 400
    1-14 TestC 400
    1-8 tren ace 75mg eod
    9-15 masteron prop 100mg eod

    im sorry i just like coming up with cycles, my mind won't stop
    Mostly answered PM's
    Don't post on my profile, I don't read that stuff, PM me instead
    <------ Hard to believe, but I wasn't on any anabolics in the avatar shot
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    How about this cut cycle

    1-14 EQ 400
    1-14 TestC 400
    1-8 tren ace 75mg eod
    9-15 masteron prop 100mg eod

    im sorry i just like coming up with cycles, my mind won't stop

    you sir, are also an addict lol
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    He doesn't want to pin, remember? Hehe.
  

  
 

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