Just how important are all the otc pct supps when using a SERM?

[Bfaber]

I'm in the final stages of planning my first cycle of Havoc, which I will be running for 4 weeks at 20/30/30/40. However, in planning my PCT I would really like the opinion of people with firsthand experience. I was under the impression that the whole point of using a SERM like Nolvadex over an entirely OTC PCT was that nolva is more "powerful". But then, I still see people using Nolva while also using post cycle support, 6-oxo, activate xtreme, lean xtreme, etc.

I've heard people refer to this approach as the "kitchen sink" approach, and I've heard that more is not always better, but at the same time there are just as many people saying it's better to be safe than sorry. In Neoborn's Epistane FAQ, he writes that "With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended." With that in mind, can anyone help me out some here? My eyes are starting to burn from scouring the depths of this forum, trying to gather all of the anecdotal evidence that I can. Unfortunately, alot of it is contradictory, lol.

 

[abuleh]

SERMs and OTC Supps are complementing each other and the result is a good PCT.

A SERM has a completely different approach then using an OTC AI for instance. SERM blocks the receptors and kicksarts your hpta and an AI prevents the conversion from Test to Estro by blocking aromatase.

For most cycles you will need a SERM and there is no way replacing a SERM with OTC supps if you're taking strong compounds e.g. SD, PP, Tren X or even Epi (if not pulsed etc.)

~abuleh

 

[Space]

I have heard doctors say that it's unhealthy to use a SERM and an AI because it drops estrogen so low that it adversely affects cholesterol.

Personally I think the best PCT would be nolvadex 20/20/20 and clomid 100/50/50.

 

[papapumpsd]

Look, I think this PCT has gotten way out of hand w/a lot of paranoid newbs. All this sh!t they're taking for PCT...it's ridiculous....seriously. Just get a SERM and a test booster. Screw all this OTC stuff...just wasted money. You're not going to grow huge jugs and have yer coq fall off if you don't have 20 different PCT supps. Best thing you can do is KEEP IT SIMPLE.

USE 1 SERM (NOLVA or TOREMIFENE, maybe CLOMID) + 1 Test Booster. That, IMO, is ALL you will need.

Do you understand WHY you even need PCT? What is happening to your biochemistry that leads to the necessity of PCT? Once you understand that well, you will know that you don't need a handfull of PCT products...just a couple at most.

EDIT (addition): I'm not dismissing support supplements such as liver support or multi-vitamins.

-Papa!-

 

[jman2129]

Agreed, I can't count the number of times I have seen this "kitchen sink" approach to PCT.

I take nolva and aromasin for PCT. The aromasin compliments the nolva and has less of a negative effect on cholesterol then adex.

Aromasin lowers SHBG thus raising testosterone levels.

 

[dg806]

During PCT, as you take nolva or whatever, you are doing so to increase your natural test quickly after a cycle. As you do so, your estrogen also increases. Post cycle support and AI's help control estrogen. Can you get by without them? More than likely. Does it help during PCT? IMO, most definately. So if you can spare the money for them, IMO they are worth it.
I also agree with protection supps like cycle support. You want to help liver, blood pressure and blood lipids as any oral steriod will play HAVOC with these.
The only other thing I would add that I feel is most needed is something to control cortisol during pct and there are several good ones from companies here to choose from.

 

[KLaw666]

im not an advocate of the kitchen-sink pct. personally i like to take my support supps, nolva(usually 30-20-20-10) and dhea(for cort control, wks3-4). the only exception is sometimes a down-tapering AI at the end of the nolva is added. cheap and effective.:head:

PS- congrats on the intelligible first post:woohoo:

 

[Zero V]

i havent done anything yet, but from what I had put together I was looking at PCT being nolva or clomid(depending on what I cycled) mixed with a natty test booster. Also still using liver supps for a week or two after cycle.

I was wondering about using an A.I. but I figure mixing that with a SERM could go wrong, I have seen people post about too much suppression effects on the body can lead to a big rebound if you suppress estrogen too long too hard.

Input?

 

[papapumpsd]

i havent done anything yet, but from what I had put together I was looking at PCT being nolva or clomid(depending on what I cycled) mixed with a natty test booster. Also still using liver supps for a week or two after cycle.

I was wondering about using an A.I. but I figure mixing that with a SERM could go wrong, I have seen people post about too much suppression effects on the body can lead to a big rebound if you suppress estrogen too long too hard.

Input?

Are you really 5'10", 143lbs Zero?

 

[Zero V]

Are you really 5'10", 143lbs Zero?

145ish now. why do you ask?

yeah I am a small fry, but i can eat like a horse....I am going to hit 155 by new years though :food: i was experimennting with my body with a cut/recomp/bulk. in 8 months I went from 160 pounds(useless weight) down to 130 and back up to 145 muscle. My Achilles tendonitis is whats holding me back. If I could throw down some heavy squats and run hardcore again, my legs alone would add on 10 pounds in a month lol.

I am doing alot of research on the stuff, but I dont plan on touching anything until 160-165ish if thats what your thinking. Just getting a head start so I know what the heck im doing a year or so down the road. And I know thats still a small weight.

My winter bulk though (starting next month) will add some weight onto my bones :head:

i could probably reach 175-180 naturally, but after 165 it would get hard to gain for me....I can eat like 4 kcals and if I am WO hardcore, lose weight....

 

[dg806]

I was wondering about using an A.I. but I figure mixing that with a SERM could go wrong, I have seen people post about too much suppression effects on the body can lead to a big rebound if you suppress estrogen too long too hard.

Input?

You begin with a serm like nolva, say a t 20/20/10/10. At the end of the second week of Nolva as you start to ramp down your dosage of the serm, is when you introduce an AI. That will take care of the elevated estrogen. Then you ramp that down to prevent "rebound gyno". Supposedly that is how it technically should work.

 

[crazyfool405]

Agreed, I can't count the number of times I have seen this "kitchen sink" approach to PCT.

I take nolva and aromasin for PCT. The aromasin compliments the nolva and has less of a negative effect on cholesterol then adex.

Aromasin lowers SHBG thus raising testosterone levels.

aromasin is freat stuff man,. it also increases IGF1

 

[Zero V]

You begin with a serm like nolva, say a t 20/20/10/10. At the end of the second week of Nolva as you start to ramp down your dosage of the serm, is when you introduce an AI. That will take care of the elevated estrogen. Then you ramp that down to prevent "rebound gyno". Supposedly that is how it technically should work.

good info.

 

[papapumpsd]

145ish now. why do you ask?

yeah I am a small fry, but i can eat like a horse....I am going to hit 155 by new years though :food: i was experimennting with my body with a cut/recomp/bulk. in 8 months I went from 160 pounds(useless weight) down to 130 and back up to 145 muscle. My Achilles tendonitis is whats holding me back. If I could throw down some heavy squats and run hardcore again, my legs alone would add on 10 pounds in a month lol.

I am doing alot of research on the stuff, but I dont plan on touching anything until 160-165ish if thats what your thinking. Just getting a head start so I know what the heck im doing a year or so down the road. And I know thats still a small weight.

My winter bulk though (starting next month) will add some weight onto my bones :head:

i could probably reach 175-180 naturally, but after 165 it would get hard to gain for me....I can eat like 4 kcals and if I am WO hardcore, lose weight....

Yes, that's what I was thinking. I think you have a TON of room to grow naturally yet. I mean, you can be at 180 for sure. Hit each muscle at least 2x each week. EAT! SLEEEEEEP! Repeat :head:

 

[crazyfool405]

good info.

i feel like as long as your back to "normal" stopping the AI without ramping down wouldnt be too much of a problem as long as your not going from an extremly high dose to no dose at all.

if your body is at homeostasis when you stop there shouldnt be much of a problem especiuallly if estrogen is under control the whole PCT

 

[Zero V]

Yes, that's what I was thinking. I think you have a TON of room to grow naturally yet. I mean, you can be at 180 for sure. Hit each muscle at least 2x each week. EAT! SLEEEEEEP! Repeat :head:

I know, food costs for me to gain weight are horrific. Dont think I dont eay lol.

I know I could reach 180 in probably......1 and a half years hardcore, but I also am one of the most agile, flexible, and fast people anyone around here knows. 180 would be the max I want to be, because I want to stay effective. I am more about functional strength than raw power. If I can get heavy squats oing again, I may be 160 by new years lol. Stupid legs....its my flexibility that got them injured. my feet have a 180 degree rotation range.....Doc calls me gumby.

plus I figure if I spend a year to a year and a half studying and planning, I could start around the 165 area(maybe 170), thats ALOT more research than most people do. And its not like i am doing what some people my weight are and starting a Test E cycle or taking a superdrol clone or epistane already.

truthfully, by that point though i will be so happy with my body, I probably wont start any at all.....leave me to my day dreams.

best part about being in shape, and growing like this... I see my ex and her husband a few times a week. he is a bean who has easy to see natural boobies, and major lack of physical abilities. And I am always getting compliments on how big I have gotten..... So its a nice feeling haha, she bugs him to get in shape but he is the computer focused type. Ah....she doesnt like it at all....

Sleep is my only issue as a college student working full time and living at church and the gym....


BUT lets stay on topic lol, i dont like hijacking lol. PCT, PCT,PCT!

 

[Irish Cannon]

I don't get too out of hand with PCTs anymore, that is if I was still doing gear.

After a 12 week cycle of Test Prop/Tren Ace, my PCT consisted of Toremifene, low-dose ATD, and a natty test booster...I think I was using Blue Up. Best PCT I've ever had. If Stoked! was around, I would have thrown that in. That's a pretty moderate PCT after a cycle like that.

Havoc is mild, and there is no need to go overboard.

 

[Grambo]

Good to hear people advocating a SERM. It seems some people have forgotten all about them or something. Nothing replaces a goor research SERM, if you going to mess with hormones why not be safe. Toremifene is the shizznit I have used to it some hardcore and not so hardcore cycles with excellent comeback in all of them.

As far as PCT I use only:

Torm, Cortisol controll supp and some sort of Test booster. You are good to go!

Always with cycle support. i have used so much cycle support its crazy haha I love that stuff.

 

[mixedup]

Good to hear people advocating a SERM. It seems some people have forgotten all about them or something. Nothing replaces a goor research SERM, if you going to mess with hormones why not be safe. Toremifene is the shizznit I have used to it some hardcore and not so hardcore cycles with excellent comeback in all of them.

As far as PCT I use only:

Torm, Cortisol controll supp and some sort of Test booster. You are good to go!

Always with cycle support. i have used so much cycle support its crazy haha I love that stuff.

A serm is always a good or the best choice it's just some people on here for whateve reason legal,job,etc just cannot or willnot take the risk of obtaining one.

 

[Bfaber]

Good info everyone, thanks for the replies. I did some researching on Aromasin after seeing it referenced here and think that I might go Nolvadex and Aromasin for my pct. They've been proven on much harsher compounds, and at the amounts that I would be buying them, I would have enough for using the leftovers in another cycle, whereas I would be spending about the same amount of money for 1 pct in otc supps.

I started preloading cycle support today, good thing muscle milk has a pretty strong taste because that the cycle support is pretty rank lol.

 

[dg806]

i feel like as long as your back to "normal" stopping the AI without ramping down wouldnt be too much of a problem as long as your not going from an extremly high dose to no dose at all.

if your body is at homeostasis when you stop there shouldnt be much of a problem especiuallly if estrogen is under control the whole PCT

I totally agree with this but there is a problem. Even if you feel good, you can be suppressed. There is no way to tell if you are or not without blood tests. How many of us really get them? So to be safe, I would continue to ramp the ai down.

 

[Zero V]

I totally agree with this but there is a problem. Even if you feel good, you can be suppressed. There is no way to tell if you are or not without blood tests. How many of us really get them? So to be safe, I would continue to ramp the ai down.

I know when I do this I probably wont be able to afford it....actually screw the probably I cant afford it.

 

[crazyfool405]

I totally agree with this but there is a problem. Even if you feel good, you can be suppressed. There is no way to tell if you are or not without blood tests. How many of us really get them? So to be safe, I would continue to ramp the ai down.

normally in most people after 4-6 weeks your back to normal and if not, then very close too.

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

Products such as Post Cycle Support and Stoked work well with a SERM as it helps boost natty test and are very good antioxidant and really help with libido.

 

[angel77]

im not an advocate of the kitchen-sink pct. personally i like to take my support supps, nolva(usually 30-20-20-10) and dhea(for cort control, wks3-4). the only exception is sometimes a down-tapering AI at the end of the nolva is added. cheap and effective.:head:

PS- congrats on the intelligible first post:woohoo:

This is the second time I've heard of using DHEA as a cortisol; controller during PCT. I was low on fundage and didn't pick up lean xtreme or anything but i DO have an extra bottle3 of DHEA. I should be good to go?

 

[The_Reverend]

Serm only with a low does AI during or after PCT is what works. People need to stop the kitchen sink approach with PCT.

 

[Irish Cannon]

This is the second time I've heard of using DHEA as a cortisol; controller during PCT. I was low on fundage and didn't pick up lean xtreme or anything but i DO have an extra bottle3 of DHEA. I should be good to go?

Oral DHEA is not the same as the kind that's used for cortisol control. DHEA in transdermal form is what you want.