19-nor and 4-ad ?
- 12-31-2002, 01:47 PM
- 12-31-2002, 02:00 PM
They do use the same conversion enzyme.. But obviously the target homeone is different.... Has anyone tried this stack with good results...
Going to be doing 500mg of each trandermally of course..hehehe
Talk to ya...
12-31-2002, 03:14 PM
Yeah all diols use the same enzyme. If you wanna run a dione version of the Nor then you would be using 2 seperate enzymes.
As far as quanity I have no clue, as to how much the body can convert daily. Thats a pretty good deal of diol espically with transdermal deliver, but I like I said I can't put a number on it. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this?
12-31-2002, 06:45 PM
01-01-2003, 03:31 PM
Bump for Wardog. I remember a thread (older post on bb.com) where Wardog ran both of these topically, but he also stacked it with either 1-test or Fina. Can't recall exactly which one or his dosage level, and don't have time to search for it right now. But I would say, ask Wardog. Just remember on dosages that he is ~270. BIG!Originally posted by curt2go
Has anyone tried this stack with good results...
01-01-2003, 05:48 PM
He stacked it with fina (about 95% sure on that one). If I remember it was pretty heavy dosing. Said it was one of his best ever cycles (if not the best)
01-09-2003, 05:30 PM
19nordiol and 4ad do use the same conversion enzyme ( 3HSD ) which does make them a poor choice to stack together because the enzyme will only be able to convert a certain amount so alot of the PH will go to waste. 19nordione uses a different enzyme ( 17HSD) than 4ad but he problem with nordione is that it only has about 5- 6 % conversion. I tried a 4ad and 19nordiol stack about a year and a half ago ( it was oral, so the trans. will be better ) I usd 1200mg of 4ad and 1200mg of 19nordiol, I did not see much in terms of gains, I got alot of water retention, I saw about what one would get by just takin 4ad or 19nor in these doses by themselves. You could try a 19nordione and 4ad stack but you would have to use abour 3 times the amount of 19nordiol you would use because of the poor conversion.
It dosnt sound like 19nor and 4ad will be a good stack, but I would be interseted to see how this stack ends up rating transdermally snce Idid it orally.
01-09-2003, 05:36 PM
Knowing they compete for the same enzyme do we know what will be the max ph that can be converted before we run out of enzyme????? This should be a good stack "in theory" since it is mimicking the steroid cycle deca and test...... But I guess we will see.
Comparitively speaking NS34 you only had about 60mg absorbed of each and I will be getting around 200mg of each(which may be too much for the enzyme).... So we will see....
PS Nice to see you posting here NS34... Hope you stick around !
01-09-2003, 05:42 PM
This wold definitely be a great cycle if the enzymes can convert enough of each PH, I think 200mg of each will be too mcuh for the enzyme, but I could be wrong, I dot believe any scientific studies exist that would give me enough information at telling about how much the enzyme can handle. Maybe I can dig something up at the lab tomarrow. I hope this cycle works for you and if it does you cna bet Ill be doing one too .
PS: Im here and ill be staying for wuite a while.
01-09-2003, 05:45 PM
If you can find info on the max ph for enzyme conversion that would be a great asset for everyone here.. Talk to ya..
PS Did you get the chat working....?
01-09-2003, 05:59 PM
I recall seeing this very issue discussed by BigCat, but cannot recall where or the name of the article or thread where I saw it. BC opined there would not be significant competition (there would be sufficient enzyme reception) even at relatively high doses. I could use some back up on this.
01-09-2003, 06:28 PM
Curt, I will try to find that info for you.
didnt get the chat working yet, Ill try to mess around with it now to see if I can
01-14-2003, 12:42 PM
That's why you need to organize your favorites in your browser bro !!Originally posted by gettin'old
I recall seeing this very issue discussed by BigCat, but cannot recall where or the name of the article or thread where I saw it. .
He used a teeter stack with an oral version of both PH's I believe. You should be able to do the same with a transdermal. Although you may have problems with showering after the workout.
From BC's article :
<B>Stack #2 - Cycle for good gains.</B>
<B>Week 1-2 take 750 mg of 4-diol and 250 mg of Nor-diol
Week 3-5 take 500 mg of 4-diol and 500 mg of Nor-diol
Week 6-7 take 250 mg of 4-diol and 750 mg of Nor-diol</B>
<B>S</B>plit stack up in two doses, take one after breakfast, the other 45-30 mins before a workout in weeks 1-2, 60 mins before in weeks 3-5 and 90 mins before workout weeks 6-7. <B>M</B>y product choice is based on anabolic properties. I selected the two best compounds. They are both using the same conversion enzyme and could compete at an increase of dosage. So I used a teeter-stack where one product decreases in favor of the other, thereby keeping the overall amount the same from week to week. But I also manage to bring endogenous testosterone down, allowing the body to feel the decrease without dropping hormone levels. When coming off a stack this will illicit a greater response in getting natural test back on track without compromising the amount of gains made. I had a practical problem in that the 4-diol peaks after 30-45 minutes and the Nor-diol after 90 minutes, so the pre-workout administration had to move along with it, shifting it back as the Nor-diol compounds became more prevalent in the stack. Keep in mind that both compounds are fairly suppressive of HPTA, so that using ZMA coming off a cycle is advised here.
Here's the link: & nbsp; http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm
Last edited by Blacksmith; 01-14-2003 at 02:38 PM.
01-14-2003, 02:40 PM
The only thing about BC articles is that they are old... I was chatting with PA and he said that an enzyme is a catylist which means that it does not change state after reacting with the diol. He also said that the change from diol to other is insantanious(probably). this would mean since the enzyzme does not change and it works instantaniously that you can't take too much 4-ad or nor-diol at one time.. So here I come...
500mg 4-ad and 500mg nor-diol... I'm gona make it to 200lbs.. Talk to ya
01-14-2003, 03:00 PM
Thanks to both of you. But now my question is, how much is too much to "overload" the enzyme. Or, if I'm not stating it right, how much can one take of the nor and 4aderm before it gets to the point of not being used by the body?
01-14-2003, 03:02 PM
01-14-2003, 06:52 PM
Curt, I think Par once posted that with the 4-aderm, doubling dosage beyond the hardcore didn't add anything. Also I think I saw him write once that he recommended that if somebody was doing the 4-aderm and the noraderm, go 1000 mg and make it 2:1 in favor of 4-AD. Of course I could be wrong but I think you could find it at bb.com.
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