"Tren" Designer Information / Write-Up

[edwards]

"Tren" Designer Steroid Information / Write-Up

I wanted to put together a list of the so called “Tren” Designer Steroid compounds for anyone that might be thinking of planning a cycle. There are more than four molecular compounds that bear the “tren” name, two of which are the same but have different nomenclatures.

First and foremost, it is important to point out that the “tren” compounds are not prosteroids to the illegal AAS Trenbolone. They are similar as they are progestins. As Chad Brooks pointed out, the Esta-4,9-diene-3,17-dione molecule is the base molecule for trenbolone. (See the write up below for the Estra-4,9)

I’ve included some information on each compound that I felt was relevant from knowlegable sources, names of the designers and dosages per serving.

Any more information is welcome. I didn't include all the Designer Names or dosage information. If you have more info about a compound, please post it. Hopefully, when someone is searching for one of these designers, they can simply bring up this page via “search” and find what they are looking for. It would have been helpful for me.


17b methoxy trienbolone – progestin

Compound Information:

Posted by Big Cat - Methoxy-TRN or 17b-methoxy trenbolone information - Bodybuilding.com Forums

17b-methoxy-trenbolone has only 15-25% the RBA of test for the AR, but has 250-600 % the affinity of progesterone for the PR.

That means ALRI has managed to put out a product and sell it as a potent anabolic that was 5-7 times less anabolic than the parent compound, and 4-12 times as progestagenic. That is when the original molecule was already a potent progestin. More evidence to the weak anabolic and strong progestational nature of these products can be found in other compounds that are basically well know androgens with an added methyl group at 17b-OH, like methoxynandrolone, which had virtually no affinity for the AR.

This just for whom it may concern. The bottom line is that methoxy-TRN is 17b-methoxy-trenbolone and IS NOT 17b-methoxymethyloxy-trenbolone, and will not yield free trenbolone either. Its a very weak anabolic with an extremely strong progestagenic activity (up to 6 times that of progesterone itself).​

Designer Names: (most have been discontinued - some of these companies list the amount at 30mg. *If you have a link or source for the reason, please pm me or post it in this thread.*)

• Trenadrol – 60 ct - 3mg and 30mg*
• Methoxy TRN (ALRI) 1.5mg
• Mega TRN

*Crazyfool405 asked Patrick Arnold about the Trenadrol 30mg product:
"I asked pat arnold, he said that when he tested it, it tested out to be Estra 4 / 19 Nor sooo i think im gunna go by that. which can be why its 30mg per cap. too bad only 60 cap bottles." (Edited for spelling/grammar)

Keep this in mind if buying the 30mg Trenadrol. It seems to be a different compound than the 3mg version.


Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione: Progestin - Dienolone Precursor

Compound Information:

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold at bb.com (edited by edwards for spelling and grammar)

The active metabolite in this case is the nandrolone derivative Estra-4,9-dien-17b-ol-3-one and according to Vida, it has an anabolic potency equal to methyltestosterone and an androgenic potency 0.1 times... This has been referred to as a trenbolone precursor, however this is inaccurate because trenbolone has an additional double bond in the structure and the body does not have the capacity to insert this double bond.​

The following was an email sent to Chad Brooks at Epic Nutrition by Brian Rubach and posted at Iron Magazine Forums. The link to the thread follows the post.

Chad, (edited by edwards for grammar and spelling)

Let me explain the evolution of this product.
In February of this year [presumably 2003 – edwards note] I engaged my chemist is china to secure me the starting material from which they make trenbolone. They replied with the Esta-4,9-diene-3,17-dione ,molecule. This molecule is literally the starting material for trenbolone and is two quick easy steps away. The only reason trenbolone is made is to make this base molecule more bioactive, the double bond and the alcohol addition make this base molecule more effective.

Esta-4,9-diene-3,17-dione is still very bioactive in its self and will bind
to the same receptor cites as Trenbolone. The conversion is only a very minor, minor, minor, minor part of its activity. This product is very effective, we are skating the FDA for now, it is classified as a hormone just like trenbolone, it will be banned eventually, but it is not a "Prohormone." It does not convert to your bodie’s hormones. This is a prosteroid, your body will use this molecule just like it uses steroids.

Thanks
Brian Rubach​

Source - Warning: Finigenx is a lie! - [Forums]


Designer Names:

• trn-x
• Tren 250 (Genetic Edge Technologies) –- 60 ct 25mg
• Testra-Flex –- 90ct 25mg (Testra Flex is advertised as containing 50mg per serving. However, this is false. It only has 25mg.)
• Dienedrone –– 60ct 50mg
• Orafinadrol-50 - (Culver Concepts) 30ct 50mg
• TrenaPLEX (Anabolic Formulations) 90ct 25mg

19-Norandrosta 4,9 diene-3,17 dione
Compound is the same as the Estra-4

Designer Names:

• Tren Xtreme –
• Trenv-700 – (Black Dragon Nutrition) 60ct 35mg
• Trenavar
• Trena (Fast Action Pharma) – 60ct 25mg
• Cyclo Tren –60ct 35 mg
• T Roid – 90ct 30mg

13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one - Progestin


Compound Information: (This is part of the generic writeup that every company used. I couldn’t find any expert opinions on this compound.)

What can users expect?
*Lean muscle mass
*Hardness
*Strength
*Recovery
Progestins do not aromatize to estrogens and being a 5-alpha-reduced analog prevents conversion to DHT. It is important to remember that being 5-alpha-reduced also means it is related to DHT. Hmmm, 5-alpha reduced means good high quality hardening effects, too. Naturally the lack of estrogenic activity translates into low water retention and solid gains.​

Designer Names: (Most have been discontinued)

• Max LMG (ALRI)
• Super Tren-MG (Black China Labs) – 60 ct, 25mg
• Revolt (kilo sports)
• X-Mass (Generic Labz)
• Tren 13-ethyl (XS Labs)
• 13 Ethyl (Anabolic Formulations) 25mg

I want to add some info about PCT to my write up about the Tren Designers. I have read about using Clomid instead of Nolva. I am wondering if there are any expert opinions on the subject. There is so much information available, I had a hard time sifting through the nonsense. Here's what I've come up with so far:

PCT Information for "Tren" Designers - AKA Progestins

During my research into these designers, I caught snippets of info regarding PCT, specifically, which SERM to use. Many supported using Clomid as opposed to Nolvadex for gyno prevention.

Tamoxifen is a SERM, one of its known activities is to upregulate the expression of the Progesterone receptor. Clomid is a SERM, not really suitable for gyno treatment but at least it does not upregulate the progesterone receptor. It is effective for PCT.​

Source - Tren Xtreme PCT CONFUSION!(serious)lots of reps for serious answers [Archive] - Bodybuilding.com Forums

Here's more from PCT and Cycle Recomendations: Estrogen, Progesterone and Cortisol control - Anabolic Steroids - Steroid.com / Anabolic Review Forums

One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.​

Treatment of Progestin Related Gyno

According to some members writing in this thread, (Kristofer68SS and bigpapa) Cabergoline, Letrozole and Bromo can be effective to control progestin induced gynocomastia after the cycle. They are not used as a SERM like clomid to prevent gyno, but rather to treat existing gyno. L-dopa and P-5-P as well. "P-5-P is the active enzyme form of vitamin B6 that does not require activation by the liver." Feel free to post more info on this and I'll add it here.

 

[AUTO]

i think you summed it up in your first line


I wanted to put together a list of the so called “tren”

 

[Knowbull]

Thanks for good posting here! Any opinions on what would stack well with these?

 

[AUTO]

Thanks for good posting here! Any opinions on what would stack well with these?

test e

 

[thedarkest1]

Fantastic list. I notice that the 13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one hits the Tren list just as 19-Norandrosta 4,9 diene-3,17 dione.

Ive used both on seperate cycles in the hope of gaining lean, dry, muscle and good solid strength gains. The 13-ethyl was promoted by the brand to deliver lean, dry gains and a massive rise in libido. I found my libido was killed a sudden death!!! And on Anabolic Minds there is a general consensus that the 13-ethyl compound generates soaking wet gains, and does in fact the opposite to your libido than the manufacturer's 'anti deca-****' claims.

Am I correct that results on these vary wildly, and is there anything you can take while on a cycle of 13-ethyl to counter the massive drop in libido?

 

[bigpapa]

so which is best to use?

 

[edwards]

The 13-ethyl was promoted by the brand to deliver lean, dry gains and a massive rise in libido. I found my libido was killed a sudden death!!! And on Anabolic Minds there is a general consensus that the 13-ethyl compound generates soaking wet gains, and does in fact the opposite to your libido than the manufacturer's 'anti deca-****' claims.

Am I correct that results on these vary wildly, and is there anything you can take while on a cycle of 13-ethyl to counter the massive drop in libido?

I've heard that the gains from the 13-ethyl are wet whereas the others are much drier. It is interesting that these companies name three different compounds "tren." Bastards! :hammer:

As far as the drop in libido, if you want to stay legal, I'm pretty sure than Dermacrine by Primordial will help in that department.

I have no clue which is best. I'm about to run the Estra in a few weeks. I've read it is dry gains with recomp abilities. We shall see. I haven't used all these compounds. I only scoured the web for a few days to research them. I wanted to make sure that I got info from reliable sources such as Big Cat and Patrick Arnold.

 

[LiveWire224]

I've heard that the gains from the 13-ethyl are wet whereas the others are much drier. It is interesting that these companies name three different compounds "tren." Bastards! :hammer:

As far as the drop in libido, if you want to stay legal, I'm pretty sure than Dermacrine by Primordial will help in that department.

I have no clue which is best. I'm about to run the Estra in a few weeks. I've read it is dry gains with recomp abilities. We shall see. I haven't used all these compounds. I only scoured the web for a few days to research them. I wanted to make sure that I got info from reliable sources such as Big Cat and Patrick Arnold.[/QUOTE

What is Estra ??
Im leaning towards T-Roid

Great write up!! Very helpful.
Nice Work

 

[LiveWire224]

What is Estra ??
Im leaning towards T-Roid

Great write up!! Very helpful.
Nice Work

 

[SelfKnowledge]

so which is best to use?

Bump! Which is best to use? And can an OTC PCT be sufficient enough for whichever is the best? And if so, which is recommended? Could reversitol pull this off by itself as well for PCT?

 

[LiveWire224]

Bump! Which is best to use? And can an OTC PCT be sufficient enough for whichever is the best? And if so, which is recommended? Could reversitol pull this off by itself as well for PCT?

I would say: T-Roid
Tren Xtreme
Cyclo Tren

And HELL NO, to OTC PCT!!!
u need a SERM with this compund brother!!:hammer:

 

[SelfKnowledge]

I would say: T-Roid
Tren Xtreme
Cyclo Tren

And HELL NO, to OTC PCT!!!
u need a SERM with this compund brother!!:hammer:

I hear mixed views on this! Can anyone else say anything about the PCT for this? There are some that always say you need a SERM with every PCT and others who say OTC PCT is more than sufficient. Can anyone else chime in on their thoughts of an OTC PCT for tren?

....Reversitol has some good info backing it. They also did blood tests with a bold/mdrol cycle and everything turned out great.

 

[LiveWire224]

This is going to shut ya down big time(19-Nor 4,9 diene-3), ur gonna want to use a SERM
But, i understand if u want a second opinion. Good luck, happy cycling

 

[LiveWire224]

I've been advised that shutdown from 19-nor's can be quite severe, so without proper PCT you could be in trouble. I've also been told that despite it being a non-methyl, stress on the liver can be quite harsh, though with the proper support supps you should be fine. SERM Nolva

 

[dirtysanchez]

I am on day 12 of a 19 norandrosta cycle. Up 8 lbs, muscles are much harder and fuller with increased vascularity. Libido, non existant, very suppressed. A Serm is a must for PCT.

 

[JBerto]

Great Post!!!

 

[bigpapa]

the better serm for these would be clomid. nolvadex won't do **** for progestin gyno if you get it

 

[edwards]

What is Estra ??
Im leaning towards T-Roid

Great write up!! Very helpful.
Nice Work

Short Hand for
Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione

 

[LiveWire224]

Short Hand for
Estra-4, 9-diene-3, 17-dione

Duhhh:fool2:, My bad, cough meds!!:fool2:

 

[LiveWire224]

Which one ya have in mind??

 

[sly]

Any one use this brand? Tren 13-ethyl (XS Labs)

 

[edwards]

Which one ya have in mind??

I bought Testra Flex from BCS Labs. I bought it specifically because the company is reputable and it supposedly had 50mg per serving. However, it only has 25mg. I'm trying to negotiate with the company I bought it from to get another bottle at cost. Bastards.

 

[suncloud]

I've been advised that shutdown from 19-nor's can be quite severe, so without proper PCT you could be in trouble.

everyone's different here, which is what makes the tren series so bad. before my cycle my sex drive was around 4x a week. during cycle it kicked up to 8x a week, then after cycle it stayed at 7x per week for two months. best friend took the cycle, and got shut down in week 3. i'd go so far as to say my test increased after the cycle far above baseline.

in my opinion, thats what makes tren so bad - not that it doesn't work, but the sides vary so much on an individual basis that some people were able to do this without a PCT and have no problem, then their friend tried it, and cried fowl.

plan the PCT to be a normal one with clomid instead of nolva (learned this from russian). always play it safe, regardless of someone elses foolishness.

 

[bigpapa]

so, which one does everyone think is the best? i've heard Trenadrol aka the mystery nobody knows what the **** it is compound is best.

 

[LSU Gladiator]

Bump for people who have tried one or the other by itself!!! I've wondered the same things about the tren variety!

 

[suncloud]

ACL is the only one i've tried. can't compare it to anything because it was my first and only cycle to date. i was very impressed though. 2 pounds per week, all LBM. so yummy.

 

[supersize77]

so, which one does everyone think is the best? i've heard Trenadrol aka the mystery nobody knows what the **** it is compound is best.

The stuff was off the hook for strength (and sides). I've tried everything I can think of, (researched like crazy) to determine what this stuff is to no avail. It's actually a little irritating....wish kilosprts would just come clean already.

 

[LiveWire224]

everyone's different here, which is what makes the tren series so bad. before my cycle my sex drive was around 4x a week. during cycle it kicked up to 8x a week, then after cycle it stayed at 7x per week for two months. best friend took the cycle, and got shut down in week 3. i'd go so far as to say my test increased after the cycle far above baseline.

in my opinion, thats what makes tren so bad - not that it doesn't work, but the sides vary so much on an individual basis that some people were able to do this without a PCT and have no problem, then their friend tried it, and cried fowl.

plan the PCT to be a normal one with clomid instead of nolva (learned this from russian). always play it safe, regardless of someone elses foolishness.

Yeah, I hear ya on that.
Thx Bro

 

[LiveWire224]

I bought Testra Flex from BCS Labs. I bought it specifically because the company is reputable and it supposedly had 50mg per serving. However, it only has 25mg. I'm trying to negotiate with the company I bought it from to get another bottle at cost. Bastards.

Wow, that sucks.
Have you thought about Dienedrone?? Pretty cheap too, at BulkNutritian. $36.99

 

[Kristofer68SS]

the better serm for these would be clomid. nolvadex won't do **** for progestin gyno if you get it

word.........

nolva is for test biatch t i t s.

 

[LiveWire224]

Word??

God I hope I dont talk like that at 36!

Oh wait ive never talked like that so Im good.

 

[sly]

The stuff was off the hook for strength (and sides). I've tried everything I can think of, (researched like crazy) to determine what this stuff is to no avail. It's actually a little irritating....wish kilosprts would just come clean already.

Yes, Trenadrol is very strong, I had strength gains comparable to M1T on it.

 

[JBerto]

Cabergoline or Clomid for prolactin-gyno?

the better serm for these would be clomid. nolvadex won't do **** for progestin gyno if you get it

Cabergoline wouldn't be better than clomid for prolactin-related gyno? :think:

 

[edwards]

Cabergoline wouldn't be better than clomid for prolactin-related gyno? :think:

I think that caber is good for treating gyno, but not preventing it during pct.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Word??

God I hope I dont talk like that at 36!

Oh wait ive never talked like that so Im good.

Whats your point? Or do you even have one?

I can spit out some fancy vocabulary if you really need it.

My point was made, or wait, did you miss it?

Probably the latter.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

the better serm for these would be clomid. nolvadex won't do **** for progestin gyno if you get it

I assume you mean, clomid would be the better choice for PCT and Nolva wont do shite if you do get gyno. Honestly the nolva could make it worse or possibly even manifest it(gyno) in PCT.

Many will state not to use a SERM(as an anti-e) for progestin based steroids during a cycle, some will even say for PCT. Nolva in particular. I know I wouldnt use nolva at all for a progestin based cycle.

Also, caber/bromo/letro will work for progestin/progesterone based gyno(not all at once,lol).

L-dopa and P-5-P have shown to help control prolactin sides as well.

Let some guru's chime in here..........

I know i was sent an article by AR-R not to use nolva for an anti-e during progestin cycles. Thats enough for me.

 

[bigpapa]

yes, caber would be used if you GOT gyno. clomid would be best for pct. ive learned this from very experienced users.

 

[edwards]

*added info regarding pct to the original post*

 

[Liftingstud]

Clomid causes an elevation of follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone. As a result, natty test production is also increased. It is also has some anti-estrogen properties.

Nolvadex works by competitively binding to target estrogen sites like those at the breast. Due to the high levels of estrogen, the body starts to ramp up test production. This is why most people wait to introduce the AI until the 3rd week of PCT (or slowly ramp it up then ramp it down). AIs slow/hault the production estrogen. It is the high estrogen levels that are allowing your natty test to recover. It is a feedback mechanism. You use the nolva to block the effects of the high estrogen levels as your natty test increases. Then you introduce the AI once test levels start to increase to decrease the amount of estrogen once natty test production has been stimulated.

Often in recoving from cycles people will use human chronic gonadotropin (HCG) since an immediate boost in testosterone is often needed. Followed by Clomid and or Nolva.

I am in no way an expert. This is just how I understand what I have learned through research.

 

[Liftingstud]

Ohh yeah currently on day 10 of a Havoc and CycloTren stack. Up 8-9lbs. Strength is great, endurance is awesome. Eating slightly above maintaince cals. Great combo.

 

[thedarkest1]

OK, interesting thread. So when I come off my BCL Super-Tren MG cycle, which I had hoped for dry, lean, solid gains and massive libido - when in fact I got bloated, wet gains and total drop im sex drive ??? I should be using Bromo post cycle, as this is a progestin, am I right?

What sort of dosage and frequency of dose of Bromo should one be using after a cycle of this Tren progestin?

 

[LiveWire224]

Ohh yeah currently on day 10 of a Havoc and CycloTren stack. Up 8-9lbs. Strength is great, endurance is awesome. Eating slightly above maintaince cals. Great combo.

Great Info Bro!

And

Sweet Stack..great gains so far.!!

Are u logging it??

Id love to hear your progress and feed back on that sick stack!

Currently poss those two fine ingredients myself for done the roadds.

 

[Liftingstud]

Great Info Bro!

And

Sweet Stack..great gains so far.!!

Are u logging it??

Id love to hear your progress and feed back on that sick stack!

Currently poss those two fine ingredients myself for done the roadds.

Thanks man. Not really logging posting some updates as I go over at BN.com forum. Like I said currently eating slightly above. My diet is clean: eggs, oats, brown rice, 100% WW bread, quinoa, meats (chicken, tilapia, 96% beef, fresh tuna, salmon). Ohh yeah a couple cups of black coffee in the morning, LOL! Like I said, I have gained 8-9 lbs so far and on day 11 (didnt weigh myself yesterday). No real bloating, possibly there is some water retension in the muscles. Definately have an increased fullness look in the mirror. I started off over lean as I do not have crazy bulking diets, I like looking in shape all the time, even when I bulk.

Strength has definately improved. As I have started my second week all lifts have gone up from the last. I think I could have put up more weight breaking away from my strict form but the mind muscle connection is awesome. After a good warm up, I really can feel the target muscle working. This causes them to SWELL!!! Have had painful pumps when I was doing dropsets and FS7 training.

Recovery is definately good, I mean you are on cycle so ready to rock each day in the gym.

Next week I am bumping the Havoc up to 40mg from 30. Not sure if I am bumping the tren, at 70mg/day now. Might bump the havoc then the last week bump the tren. Have to see how I am feeling.

 

[Liftingstud]

OK, interesting thread. So when I come off my BCL Super-Tren MG cycle, which I had hoped for dry, lean, solid gains and massive libido - when in fact I got bloated, wet gains and total drop im sex drive ??? I should be using Bromo post cycle, as this is a progestin, am I right?

What sort of dosage and frequency of dose of Bromo should one be using after a cycle of this Tren progestin?

Not sure why you would not use a SERM even though it is a progestin.

 

[Liftingstud]

SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) : These block certain estrogen receptors, ***ending on the drug, and dont actually lower estrogen in the blood. Estrogen is left to circulate with nowhere to go. Because of this, SERMS have a positive effect on cholesterol levels. They have a negative effect on IGF-1, so if bulking, only take them if totally necessary. They are good at blocking gyno. Commonly used during PCT, and less often used while cycling. A SERM like nolvadex is widely used in PCT to help kickstart the HPTA back to normal function, in conjunction with other beneficial drugs. To learn how this works, please refer to Anthony Roberts PCT in the PCT section.

AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors) : There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels and low estrogen levels can lead to sore joints, cause your losing estrogens anti-inflammitory effect. Can also have a negative impact on your libido. Estrogen has an important role in mass building and joint health, as noted below where "estrogen" is explained.

RI's (Reductase Inhibitors) : These drugs stop the conversion of testosterone into DHT wherever 5-alpha reductase enzymes are present. RI's work by blocking the action of the 5-alpha. There are 2 5a's. Type I 5a and Type II 5a. Different RI's block one or both of these 5a's. The main reason someone uses RI's is to stop hairloss. They are common anti hairloss drugs. The problem is, when you block the dht conversion, there are less androgens available and may reduce your gains. Sometimes people report less strength, aggression and drive to train.

Estrogen : The first hormone we need to keep an eye on. Many AAS convert to estrogen via the aromatization process. Some AAS are worse than others. Also, estrogen spikes after a cycle. High levels of estrogen leads to gyno, water retention, fat storage etc. Estrogen plays a key role in progesterone related gyno. We either block its receptors with SERMS or reduce its production with AIs. We watch estrogen levels during a cycle and in PCT. Lowering estrogen too much will mess up your blood lipids. Letting it get out of control will cause sides like gyno, water retention etc. Estrogen plays a role in IGF-1 levels, may lower IGF-1 when blocked with a SERM. Estrogen is also beneficial hormone when bulking, promoting higher androgen receptor concentrations (!). It also is beneficial in another way - its supposed to act as an anti-inflammatory - this means blocking or reducing it too much during a heavy bulking cycle can result in injury to joints. Obviously different estrogen levels are desired for different goals, and it is not always good to block its action or its production. Usually, while bulking, estrogen is allowed to rise unless gyno or water retention (leading to high blood pressure) becomes a problem. When cutting and shedding water and lifting a little lighter (contest prep for example) estrogen is usually dropped with an AI. Proper diet and training can help the bad side effects high estrogen can have.

Progesterone : Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its receptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca (nor-9's), may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.

Cortisol : The third hormone, the stress hormone. When elevated to long, it will store fat. Eat muscle. Cause lethargy. Moodiness. You may crave carbs by the boat load. Cortisol spikes after a cycle because AAS blocks it while on cycle, upping cortisol production and receptor sites. IMO not enough attention is payed to this. It has special functions in the body that are absolutely necessary, like its anti-inflamitory ability. However, when elevated for long periods, it turns into a muscle eating beast. The most important time to watch cortisol is after a cycle, when it spikes. There are a couple ways to help control this, explained below.

 

[Liftingstud]

Now that you brushed up on some defentions, here are some useful compounds :


SERMS (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulation)

Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) : Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. It also helps your blood fat levels. It does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. Nolva should be used during HCG therapy, at 20 mg a day, for the reason i just mentioned. Can be used during cycle if you see signs of gyno. Its mainly used to block the estrogen spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.

Faslodex (Fulvestrant) : Approved for use in 2002 for breast cancer research, this drug is unlike most we have seen. It is classified as an estrogen receptor downregulator. It prevents estrogen from exerting its influence on the estrogen receptor. Similar to Nolvadex, but is not selective. It hits all estrogen receptors. It also does this to progesterone receptors to a lesser degree. It is injectable, at 250mg a month. No information on how it affects blood lipids. It is also very expensive.

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) : This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in PCT, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all AAS esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your PCT. Commonly taken at about 100mg a day.

Fareston (Toremifene Citrate) : This is a second generation SERM. Approved for use in 1997. Chemically very similar to Nolva and Clomid, it is less powerful mg for mg. Fareston may have a stronger posotive effect on your cholesterol levels. For those who find this an important issue, this is a drug of choice. Used every day at around 60mg.

Evista (raloxifene) : A newer SERM, Evista is shown to be a blocker in breast tissue, but acts as a receptor agonist in bone tissue (unlike Nolvadex). This action promotes bone density. Taken at about 60mg a day. Evista may prove to be very beneficial, as it also helps cholesterol levels (like Nolvadex). Evista is supposed to have a more powerful gyno blocking effect than Nolvadex.

Cyclofenil : Much like Nolvadex, this is also a SERM. Used at about 600mg a day, it is weaker mg for mg. A good alternative if Nolva is not available, which is usually not the case.


AI (Aromatase Inhibitors)

Teslac (Testolactone) : This is a first generation steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Like a suicide, it permanently attaches to the aromatase enzyme. Taked at a maximum of 250mg a day. It is not as strong as the newer AI's, but some people still like to use it. It can lower estrogen about 50%. Streroidal in structure, it has no anabolic effect.

Aromasin (Exemestane) : This drug is classified as a Type I Suicide AI. It binds to the aromatase enzyme and kills it. It is effective at lowering estrogen up to 85%. Once again, you have to watch out for your cholesterol levels. Used mainly for cutting when low estrogen levels are desired. Aromasin is shown to help bone density. Clinical doses are about 25mg a day, but it has been shown that as little as 2.5mg a day can be as effective.

Lentaron (Formestane) : A Type I Suicide AI. Lentaron is not classified as a drug, and can be sold over the counter as a suppliment. Not as strong as the third generation AIs (arimidex, femera). Can lower estrogen by about 60%. Used as an injectable, it is dosed at about 250mg every 2 weeks. Due to poor bioavailability, daily doses of oral Lentaron are about 250mg.

Arimidex (Anastrozole) : This is a widely used type II AI. It competes with estrogen for the aromatase enzyme. This effectively lowers estrogen up to 80% in the blood. Approved for use in 1995 to fight breast cancer. At doses up to 1mg a day, it has been shown to be very effective at controlling estrogen while on cycle or in PCT. It is usefull for curbing the effects that come with aromatizing AAS's while in cycle, and can be used in PCT. Nolvadex is shown to decrease the effectiveness of Arimidex when used together. In this case a suicide inhibitor may be more well suited, like in PCT. It is also called L-dex, in its liquid form.

Femera (Letrozole) : Letro is a competative Type II AI also. Also farely new compared to other compounds, it is shown to be effective at lowering estrogen by blocking the aromatase enzyme. Doses up to 2.5mg a day are used, but usually as low as .5mg a day can be just as effective. Clinical studies show Femera to lower estrogen by 75-78%, sometimes up to 95%. Once again, watch out for your blood lipids (cholesterol) to get out of whack. There may a noted rebound effect of estrogen levels that goes along with Letro use.


Cortisol Control

Cytadren (aminoglutethimide) : This drug has the ability to reduce cortisol at higher doses (1000mg a day), and act as an AI at lower doses (250mg a day). The cortisol effect is shortlived if taken for a number of consecutive days. Can lower estrogen a lot, anbout 90%. The higher dose has a long list of sides. More effective as an AI.

Mirtazapine :This is used to lower cortisol. Even though it may be effective in cortisol control, Johan has pointed out that it may cause some phycological side effects, like making you feel like a zombie. Here is a pubmed abstract for is effects on cortisol levels, among other things.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

Cytodyne (Phosphatidylserine) : This is also used to lower cortisol, but is only effective in lowering about 30%. There are other ingredients in Cytodyne than Phosphatidylserine. Phosphatidylserine is the only real proven ingredient to lower cortisol, or so ive gathered so far. Effective at 800mg a day of PS as an ingredient.

Relacore : This over the counter cocktail of herbs and vitamins and minerals is supposed to reduce the amount of cortisol in your blood. I find it chills me out a little, however i read some places that it may raise estrogen. I used it for a bit, however I dont bother any more.

Vitamin C: At doses of about 1.5 grams a day, can have a lowering effect on elevated cortisol, not to mention its other healthy effects.


LH Repalacement Therapy - Testosterone Stimulating Drugs

HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) : HCG is a replacement for your natural LH (luteinizing hormone). LH is what your body produces to tell your testicles to produce natural testosterone. LH levels drop when using AAS (HPTA suppression). Using HCG while on cycle prevents testicular shrinkage, speeding PCT when the time comes. Using Nolva while using HCG helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing your testicles to natural LH. In my opinion, any decent cycle/PCT should include HCG. It has been suggested to me that HCG can be used throughout a cycle at 500iu E4D, but im unsure of this from practical experience. The most favorable way is to use it in the last couple weeks of your cycle at a higher dose, like 500iu ED. The trick is to end the use of HCG just as the last AAS is running out of your system. So, 3 weeks before the the last ester leaves your blood, you would start the HCG/nolva combo. HCG at about 500iu ED and Nolva 20mg ED. This is done before Nolva/aromasin (for example) PCT starts, and runs about a few weeks longer than the end of the HCG. Always include Nolva with your HCG, they work together well. Be careful not to overdose on HCG and permanently desenstize your testicles to LH. HCG has an active life of about 3 days. Vitamin E is a booster, read the next one :

Vitamin E : As Anthony Roberts pointed out to me, vitamin E increases the response to HCG. This may be useful in making the low doses of HCG we use more effective at growing back shrunken testicles. Doses can be generally 1000iu a day while using HCG.


Progesterone Control

Lilopristone, Onapristone: These are progesterone blockers also, said to be safer and possibly more effective than RU-486 when it comes to progesterone blocking. They were developed after RU-486 in an attempt to make more effective, less harsh drugs to block progesterone.

Dostinex (Cabergoline), Bromo (Bromocriptine), B-6 : These are used for Deca/Tren gyno sides. This type of gyno is related to progesterone and its receptors. Tren/Deca may act on the progesterone receptor, as they are progestins, and may increase prolactin in the blood (causing lactating). These drugs stop production of prolactin at the pituitary gland. Controlling estrogen levels with an AI also helps here, as progestins themsleves haven't been proven to cause gyno.

RU-486 (Mifepristone - abortion pill) : This drug has the ability to block estrogen, progesterone AND cortisol. It may or may not be very well tolerated, but I would like to find out more about it, as it is used in the bodybuilding world. In PCT it is used to block cortisol and progesterone. A powerful drug that may turn out to be a good choice, but i need more evidence and feedback from experience useing RU-486. Check out this thread i have going if you would like to learn more about it :
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=180912


RI's (5a Reductase Inhibitors)

Proscar (Finasteride) : This is primarily a Type II 5-alpha blocker. This means that when you are taking a high dose of testosterone, the resulting conversion of test to DHT in certain parts of the body become to high for ones own comfort, mainly hairloss and prostate enlargement. This is where the type II 5a enzymes are mainly found. This will not work against AAS that are already highly androgenic by design, without conversion. AAS like Tren will still exhibit high androgenic properties. Used at doses up to 5mg a day.

Avodart (Dutasteride) : Like Proscar but newer and more effective at blocking the effects of DHT in not only the scalp and prostate (which are Proscar's main strengths) but also in the skin, effectively reducing acne. This is because Avodart will block both Type I and Type II 5-alpha enzymes, covering more of the problem areas due to DHT. Available in .5mg softgels, this is an effective dose. Approved for use in 2002.


Fat Burning, Anti-Catabolic

Clen (Clenbuterol) : Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator. Everyone knows clen is used to burn fat. Why am I listing it here in a PCT thread? Well, for its anti-catabolic properties. Clen may lower the effect of AAS while on cycle, so I personally dont use it while cycling. It does, however, have an effect on cortisol levels. While on cycle, cortisol is not to much of a problem if you eat right. AAS use increases cortisol production, and increases receptor sites. This means that when you finish a cycle, cortisol spikes along with estrogen. This is a part of the "crash" that is often overlooked. People have reported that blocking cortisol in PCT speeds along fat loss. Clen is supposed to have a blocking effect on cortisol. So, along side of its ability to burn fat, it is anti catabolic in it ability to block cortisol until desired hormone levels are achieved in PCT. For me, it makes sense to use clen in PCT until desired hormone levels are achieved, as it also burns away fat in the process.



SUMMARY and RECOMMENDATIONS

All AAS can supress the HPTA, even in small doses, thus lowering natural LH. Factors that affect ones ability to recover quickly are genetics, cycle length or steroid type. Some AAS will shut you down hard and fast, some not so bad. Some lucky people can rebound quickly without medications, but many need it to avoid a crash and losing muscle/gaining fat. It is in our best interest to use the appropriate medications in the CORRECT doses to keep sides down (like bloat), grow quickly and keep quality mass when we are done our cycles. Most of us can get away with using 2 or 3 compounds to keep sides to a minimum, rebound quickly, and keep gains we worked hard for. Higher levels of AAS (and therefore higher estrogen/progestins) may require more intense hormone control and heavier PCT. Remember, we are aiming to level out estrogen, progesterone, cortisol and testosterone. In PCT, we are trying to achieve equilibrium of the HPTA, getting FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone) back to normal. Keeping our hard earned gains is obviously our first priority.

In short, we generally use :

AI's - While on cycle to "dry up" or lower estrogen because of a persons sensetivity to it (if needed). Used in PCT for the same reason and to help get back to homeostasis. Usually used with a SERM in PCT.

SERM's - to block estrogen while on cycle (if needed) or to help kickstart the HPTA during PCT (most common use). Usually used with an AI in PCT.

HCG - To prevent testicular shrinkage during a cycle, or to encourage them to grow back more quickly. Usually used with an AI and SERM in PCT as the last AAS run out of your body, and stopped a few weeks before your SERM and AI.

Keep in mind these are generally accepted guidelines and everyone has their own preferences. I hope this post helps out, as i wrote it for beginners who are having a hard time searching through the massive amount of info... this thread will be updated as often as i learn something new... feel free to offer suggestions. Enjoy!

 

[russianstar]

For progestin gyno, or prolactin sides you want..Bromo, and L-dopa, and vitamin b6, this will keep you pretty much safe, nolva is no good, it doesnt do anything for prolactin, clomid works in a different way to nolva, but i would always add, l-dopa, and bromo, for any prolactin sides.
And of all these, T-roid is the best ive used, and the driest, good for strength, thermogenic, and a nice mild mass builder.
Reservatrol will be my next pct, i am of the opinion after numerous cycle, that a Serm should always be on hand, but might not be needed, ive been experimenting with some otc pcts of late and had some nice results, Russian, great post btw.

 

[LiveWire224]

Thanks man. Not really logging posting some updates as I go over at BN.com forum. Like I said currently eating slightly above. My diet is clean: eggs, oats, brown rice, 100% WW bread, quinoa, meats (chicken, tilapia, 96% beef, fresh tuna, salmon). Ohh yeah a couple cups of black coffee in the morning, LOL! Like I said, I have gained 8-9 lbs so far and on day 11 (didnt weigh myself yesterday). No real bloating, possibly there is some water retension in the muscles. Definately have an increased fullness look in the mirror. I started off over lean as I do not have crazy bulking diets, I like looking in shape all the time, even when I bulk.

Strength has definately improved. As I have started my second week all lifts have gone up from the last. I think I could have put up more weight breaking away from my strict form but the mind muscle connection is awesome. After a good warm up, I really can feel the target muscle working. This causes them to SWELL!!! Have had painful pumps when I was doing dropsets and FS7 training.

Recovery is definately good, I mean you are on cycle so ready to rock each day in the gym.

Next week I am bumping the Havoc up to 40mg from 30. Not sure if I am bumping the tren, at 70mg/day now. Might bump the havoc then the last week bump the tren. Have to see how I am feeling.

Awesome!!
Def. keep me updated on ur progress and PCT.

 

[thedarkest1]

Absolutely awesome information and post! I really appreciate that, learnt a lot from reading this.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

For progestin gyno, or prolactin sides you want..Bromo, and L-dopa, and vitamin b6, this will keep you pretty much safe, nolva is no good, it doesnt do anything for prolactin, clomid works in a different way to nolva, but i would always add, l-dopa, and bromo, for any prolactin sides.
And of all these, T-roid is the best ive used, and the driest, good for strength, thermogenic, and a nice mild mass builder.
Reservatrol will be my next pct, i am of the opinion after numerous cycle, that a Serm should always be on hand, but might not be needed, ive been experimenting with some otc pcts of late and had some nice results, Russian, great post btw.

I agree with you sir. Reps.

I just want to add, P-5-P is a safer way to dose B6 in higher amounts.

"P-5-P is the active enzyme form of vitamin B6 that does not require activation by the liver."