Discussion On PCT Why?
- 09-18-2008, 11:10 AM
Discussion On PCT Why?
Maybe this should be in the PCT forum but since everyone in here needs it I thought I would bring something up that i was having questions about. Now alot of you know I've been doing this a while since we didnt' have anything A.S. that was OTC or "research chemicals" or letro or adex etc. Now when I first started NO one even thought of Tamox for PCT it was all Chlomid that's what was used. Tamox was kept on hand for gyno.
Now alot of things have come out in the last 15 years and I can tell you i remember when methyl 1-t, 4ad, 1-test etc were all laughed at as "not real" now a days it's pretty much accepted that these are real and work same for s-drol, phera etc. But it seems like everytime some one brings up PCT OTC is never good enough always needs a serm etc. So my question is are companies just so far behind on PCT that their otc steroids can not beconsidered legit yet their otc PCT is not good enough? I mean if these companies can come out with an otc steroid that works as good as "real gear" why can't they come out with a pct product that works as good as a "resarch chemical"
- 09-18-2008, 11:42 AM
Its like this...yes the new PHs and designer steroids are effective and will produce nice gains. They are NOT, however, comparable to chemicals like testosterone. That doesnt mean you cant use them and be pleased. The same thing applies to OTC PCT....there are some that are good and will work sufficiently, but probably arent as good as nolva or clomid...That doesnt mean you couldnt use them and get the needed benefits.
- 09-18-2008, 11:55 AM
Holy thanks for chiming in I knew you'd have good insight. I just read so many people saying you HAVE to have a serm Just like I used to read so many people saying you HAVE to have "gear" or never run and oral on cycle etc.
09-18-2008, 01:42 PM
The newest fad seems to be extreme overkill on PCT...Hell, when I see a guy write up his cycle, and include creatine in his PCT, that is proof positive that guys dont grasp the concept clearly. Of course, if you're going to overkill, at least its being done on the positive side.
09-18-2008, 02:04 PM
09-18-2008, 02:52 PM
09-18-2008, 03:14 PM
Bottom line I guess is that its not doing anything at all for the endocrine system, and guys should realize that. Its a great product, and it CAN be used PCT, I just dont think a lot of the newer posters here realize quite why they are using it and somehow think its in the same category as nolva or clomid..
09-18-2008, 03:22 PM
Ive been around a lot of bodybuilders and a good majority of those have used A LOT of chemicals....grams a week, in fact. I have worked with many clients who were stubborn and insisted on no PCT. I have maybe on a few ocassions used hcg with someone, but virtually without exception PCT has been nolva and/or clomid. I have only seen maybe two cases where someone had serious issues returning to their pre-cycle hormonal state. Im fairly convinced that anything beyond those two items really isnt necessery. Additional ancillaries may help somewhat, but they definitely wont make or break your recovery. I see thread after thread of guys literally using 5-10 items post cycle...its insane. I dont really ever question it when I see it because at least its taking too much on the "good" side as opposed to not enough...I would rather see guys taking 3 things they dont really need then taking nothing or one less than they should...
As far as an actual PCT, I think that is a little dependant on what you've ran, because I truly think there are some quite effective OTC products that will work for some situations.
09-18-2008, 03:24 PM
09-18-2008, 03:29 PM
One additional point...I dont think anything really impacts PCT in a bad light...I just think that guys can get by with less than they think. Also, I realize that my pool of clients Im drawing from is not insanely large, but definitely big enough to extrapulate the numbers from.
09-18-2008, 03:31 PM
09-18-2008, 03:42 PM
09-18-2008, 03:47 PM
The part I would like to focus on is the "MAINTAINING YOUR GAINS" aspect of PCT.
I agree.... a serm(nolva/clomid) will help to restore your body back to pre-cycle hormonal levels, but it doesn't necessarily help you to mintain your gains.....right. Or does it? and if not... what supplement/supplements does(IN YOUR OPINION)
09-18-2008, 04:02 PM
I love it when holy posts.. I learn a lot every time.
09-18-2008, 04:06 PM
09-18-2008, 04:11 PM
If you can quickly regain a healthy 700ng-900ng/dl level itís much easier to hold on to gains.
09-18-2008, 04:26 PM
09-18-2008, 04:44 PM
Personally if I could afford to posses an illegal substance such as nolva then I'd just use real steroids, too. Makes me sick when people ask for a PCT for their legal stuff and someone is telling them to use something illegal. There's probably a reason they went the legal route in the first place, ya know?
09-18-2008, 05:03 PM
09-18-2008, 05:12 PM
This is also one of the reasons i brought up this subject for people who want to be able to order say their epi and PCT all from one site etc and not worry about legality of "research chemicals" etc. Many times you see people saying they are going to use such and such OTC for PCT and everybody FLAMES saying a serm is a must etc. I think sometimes we all get into the same ole same ole mentality as I mentioned when everyone laughed at 4ad, methyl 1-t etc. I don't know how many times I heard "anything you can buy in a store or legally is just junk" when ph' ps first started coming out. Like Holy said they won't give results of a a nice 12 week cycle but they will give results and at 39.95 a bottle or whatever plus not having to worry about delivery it's a great alternative
09-18-2008, 05:21 PM
I'm soaking in knowledge,..
09-18-2008, 05:29 PM
research chems are technically legal to buy, its your "miss use" of them that turns them into your PCT. Now if you want actual medication forms of the chemical, then it becomes political.
BTW, i have been seeing paper clomid and paper nolva.... i thought that idea crashed awhile back?
09-18-2008, 05:42 PM
09-18-2008, 05:44 PM
09-18-2008, 05:47 PM
Thanks, and well put...this is exactly what I was trying to imply...creatine will give you gains, but unless you return to your normal hormonal state (which creatine will not do), then when you come off you are STILL going to lose what you've gained...Ultimately you have to return your endogenous test levels to normal, and nolva and clomid are both tried and true....
09-18-2008, 07:25 PM
09-18-2008, 08:11 PM
09-18-2008, 08:27 PM
a lot of the AIs used now have been used in breast cancer pateints in previous years as well, and there is always alternative medicine, there are a lot of things that come into play with SERMs, and test boosters during PCT and a lot of them have been researched thouroughly, just not enough people read enough
09-18-2008, 08:43 PM
09-18-2008, 09:05 PM
09-18-2008, 09:05 PM
I'm gonna be honest here....Many years ago(probably 10) I did my fair share of injectable cycle....Sus250,anadrol,suspen sion and decca, as well as, dbol and anadrol(orals)...not once did I ever have a problem with gyno and I never ran post cycle therapy of any kind;yes it was stupid and I was young and all I had to learn off of was a old lifting buddy of mine, who come to find out, was not the most knowledgable individual.
Of course my lifting routine was inconsistent, as well as my diet. I did not keep any gains and it was all a big waste.
But i was much younger then. I have learned a thing or two in my old age though, but still tryin to figure out how to maintain my gains.
09-18-2008, 09:21 PM
09-18-2008, 09:31 PM
- 5'9" 200 lbs.
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
I would also like to point out, that once you gain x number of lbs of muscle in a cycle, you must also eat enough to keep those gains. Your body naturally will not or can not support but just so much mass. Anything over that limit must be worked for very hard to keep unless it is fat gain.
09-19-2008, 07:04 AM
09-19-2008, 09:38 AM
09-19-2008, 09:43 AM
09-19-2008, 09:53 AM
Toremifene certainly is the one which I would choose based on experience. But everyone is different. Unfortunately, it's trial and error. If you find something that works for you, then stick with it.
09-19-2008, 10:49 AM
that's how i feel. I know of one big company that got popped for it's research chemicals they also sold legit products it was all confiscated and tested. Now they are up to their ears in legal fees etc. I dont' see controlled deliveries too far away for research chemicals either. I mean it's like ordering Fina without a Cow. How is a Salesperson, Accountant, etc going to say they were doing research with these chemicals? it won't fly at the very least you could end up a ton of legal fees and personal embarssment if your got caught with them
09-19-2008, 11:07 AM
there should be an 'ask holyintellect' thread
09-19-2008, 01:15 PM
- 5'9" 200 lbs.
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
Some "research companies" have already got tagged and went out of business.
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