Discussion On PCT Why?

[mixedup]

Maybe this should be in the PCT forum but since everyone in here needs it I thought I would bring something up that i was having questions about. Now alot of you know I've been doing this a while since we didnt' have anything A.S. that was OTC or "research chemicals" or letro or adex etc. Now when I first started NO one even thought of Tamox for PCT it was all Chlomid that's what was used. Tamox was kept on hand for gyno.

Now alot of things have come out in the last 15 years and I can tell you i remember when methyl 1-t, 4ad, 1-test etc were all laughed at as "not real" now a days it's pretty much accepted that these are real and work same for s-drol, phera etc. But it seems like everytime some one brings up PCT OTC is never good enough always needs a serm etc. So my question is are companies just so far behind on PCT that their otc steroids can not beconsidered legit yet their otc PCT is not good enough? I mean if these companies can come out with an otc steroid that works as good as "real gear" why can't they come out with a pct product that works as good as a "resarch chemical"

 

[holyintellect]

Its like this...yes the new PHs and designer steroids are effective and will produce nice gains. They are NOT, however, comparable to chemicals like testosterone. That doesnt mean you cant use them and be pleased. The same thing applies to OTC PCT....there are some that are good and will work sufficiently, but probably arent as good as nolva or clomid...That doesnt mean you couldnt use them and get the needed benefits.

holy

 

[mixedup]

Holy thanks for chiming in I knew you'd have good insight. I just read so many people saying you HAVE to have a serm Just like I used to read so many people saying you HAVE to have "gear" or never run and oral on cycle etc.

 

[holyintellect]

The newest fad seems to be extreme overkill on PCT...Hell, when I see a guy write up his cycle, and include creatine in his PCT, that is proof positive that guys dont grasp the concept clearly. Of course, if you're going to overkill, at least its being done on the positive side.

holy

 

[futurepilot]

Hell, when I see a guy write up his cycle, and include creatine in his PCT, that is proof positive that guys dont grasp the concept clearly.

How would creatine negatively affect PCT?

 

[partyman43]

The newest fad seems to be extreme overkill on PCT...Hell, when I see a guy write up his cycle, and include creatine in his PCT, that is proof positive that guys dont grasp the concept clearly. Of course, if you're going to overkill, at least its being done on the positive side.

holy

Holy....can you elaborate please?

Since you brought it up...lets get an idea of what you consider a decent PCT.

Not tryin to be an ***, just interested:fool2:

 

[holyintellect]

How would creatine negatively affect PCT?

I should have been a little more clear in my post, but I DONT think it impacts negatively at all. I dont however, think creatine should be used as a component in PCT. If you want to run it, by all means go ahead. It does nothing to stimulate natural testosterone production, nor does it do anything to hinder estrogen build up. PCT should include things that serve a purpose... creatine WILL NOT help you maintain gains. Its going to do its own job via cell volumizing, and you'll make some headway there, but the two arent intertwined. If you subscribe to the logic that you should take another stand alone supplement to help maintain gains done on cycle, then by that same logic you should be able to take dbol to help maintain gains on a test cycle....or SD for gains on a Havoc cycle...I think creatine is a staple supplement and should be used as such....I think its gotten to the point that guys are using more ancillaries than they are actual on-cycle chemicals.

Bottom line I guess is that its not doing anything at all for the endocrine system, and guys should realize that. Its a great product, and it CAN be used PCT, I just dont think a lot of the newer posters here realize quite why they are using it and somehow think its in the same category as nolva or clomid..

holy

 

[holyintellect]

Holy....can you elaborate please?

Since you brought it up...lets get an idea of what you consider a decent PCT.

Not tryin to be an ***, just interested:fool2:

Ive been around a lot of bodybuilders and a good majority of those have used A LOT of chemicals....grams a week, in fact. I have worked with many clients who were stubborn and insisted on no PCT. I have maybe on a few ocassions used hcg with someone, but virtually without exception PCT has been nolva and/or clomid. I have only seen maybe two cases where someone had serious issues returning to their pre-cycle hormonal state. Im fairly convinced that anything beyond those two items really isnt necessery. Additional ancillaries may help somewhat, but they definitely wont make or break your recovery. I see thread after thread of guys literally using 5-10 items post cycle...its insane. I dont really ever question it when I see it because at least its taking too much on the "good" side as opposed to not enough...I would rather see guys taking 3 things they dont really need then taking nothing or one less than they should...

As far as an actual PCT, I think that is a little dependant on what you've ran, because I truly think there are some quite effective OTC products that will work for some situations.

holy

 

[poacher]

I should have been a little more clear in my post, but I DONT think it impacts negatively at all. I dont however, think creatine should be used as a component in PCT. If you want to run it, by all means go ahead. It does nothing to stimulate natural testosterone production, nor does it do anything to hinder estrogen build up. PCT should include things that serve a purpose... creatine WILL NOT help you maintain gains. Its going to do its own job via cell volumizing, and you'll make some headway there, but the two arent intertwined. If you subscribe to the logic that you should take another stand alone supplement to help maintain gains done on cycle, then by that same logic you should be able to take dbol to help maintain gains on a test cycle....or SD for gains on a Havoc cycle...I think creatine is a staple supplement and should be used as such....I think its gotten to the point that guys are using more ancillaries than they are actual on-cycle chemicals.

Bottom line I guess is that its not doing anything at all for the endocrine system, and guys should realize that. Its a great product, and it can be used PCT, I just dont think a lot of the newer posters here realize quite why they are using it and somehow think its in the same category as nolva or clomid..

holy

I honestly think most feel running creatine will help them keep thier gains.

 

[holyintellect]

One additional point...I dont think anything really impacts PCT in a bad light...I just think that guys can get by with less than they think. Also, I realize that my pool of clients Im drawing from is not insanely large, but definitely big enough to extrapulate the numbers from.

holy

 

[holyintellect]

I honestly think most feel running creatine will help them keep thier gains.

They will make gains on creatine no doubt. But its not going to have any effect on your recovery to your initial hormonal state. Thats what PCT is about. I have no doubt that it is effective post cycle...

maybe we're just arguing semantics here?

holy

 

[Eric Potratz]

I mean if these companies can come out with an otc steroid that works as good as "real gear" why can't they come out with a pct product that works as good as a "resarch chemical"

A lot of guys would say our Sustain Alpha works as good as clomid or nolvadex [and without the side-effects]

-Pp

 

[partyman43]

Ive been around a lot of bodybuilders and a good majority of those have used A LOT of chemicals....grams a week, in fact. I have worked with many clients who were stubborn and insisted on no PCT. I have maybe on a few ocassions used hcg with someone, but virtually without exception PCT has been nolva and/or clomid. I have only seen maybe two cases where someone had serious issues returning to their pre-cycle hormonal state. Im fairly convinced that anything beyond those two items really isnt necessery. Additional ancillaries may help somewhat, but they definitely wont make or break your recovery. I see thread after thread of guys literally using 5-10 items post cycle...its insane. I dont really ever question it when I see it because at least its taking too much on the "good" side as opposed to not enough...I would rather see guys taking 3 things they dont really need then taking nothing or one less than they should...

As far as an actual PCT, I think that is a little dependant on what you've ran, because I truly think there are some quite effective OTC products that will work for some situations.

holy

The part I would like to focus on is the "MAINTAINING YOUR GAINS" aspect of PCT.

I agree.... a serm(nolva/clomid) will help to restore your body back to pre-cycle hormonal levels, but it doesn't necessarily help you to mintain your gains.....right. Or does it? and if not... what supplement/supplements does(IN YOUR OPINION)


Thanks:clap2:

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

I love it when holy posts.. I learn a lot every time.

 

[futurepilot]

Its a great product, and it CAN be used PCT, I just dont think a lot of the newer posters here realize quite why they are using it and somehow think its in the same category as nolva or clomid..

holy

Gotcha.

 

[Eric Potratz]

The part I would like to focus on is the "MAINTAINING YOUR GAINS" aspect of PCT.

I agree.... a serm(nolva/clomid) will help to restore your body back to pre-cycle hormonal levels, but it doesn't necessarily help you to mintain your gains.....right. Or does it? and if not... what supplement/supplements does(IN YOUR OPINION)


Thanks:clap2:

No matter how many creatine or NO products you take you have to get androgen levels into normal physiological levels. Sub-physiological levels of T [<500ng/dl] will cause dramatic losses of gains.

If you can quickly regain a healthy 700ng-900ng/dl level it’s much easier to hold on to gains.

-Pp

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

No matter how many creatine or NO products you take you have to get androgen levels into normal physiological levels. Sub-physiological levels of T [<500ng/dl] will cause dramatic losses of gains.

If you can quickly regain a healthy 700ng-900ng/dl level it’s much easier to hold on to gains.

-Pp

I've got a little theory regarding Sustain and 2 week cycles.. hehehe

 

[jeremy02]

Personally if I could afford to posses an illegal substance such as nolva then I'd just use real steroids, too. Makes me sick when people ask for a PCT for their legal stuff and someone is telling them to use something illegal. There's probably a reason they went the legal route in the first place, ya know?

 

[GuitarHero]

I've got a little theory regarding Sustain and 2 week cycles.. hehehe

care to share?

 

[mixedup]

Personally if I could afford to posses an illegal substance such as nolva then I'd just use real steroids, too. Makes me sick when people ask for a PCT for their legal stuff and someone is telling them to use something illegal. There's probably a reason they went the legal route in the first place, ya know?

This is also one of the reasons i brought up this subject for people who want to be able to order say their epi and PCT all from one site etc and not worry about legality of "research chemicals" etc. Many times you see people saying they are going to use such and such OTC for PCT and everybody FLAMES saying a serm is a must etc. I think sometimes we all get into the same ole same ole mentality as I mentioned when everyone laughed at 4ad, methyl 1-t etc. I don't know how many times I heard "anything you can buy in a store or legally is just junk" when ph' ps first started coming out. Like Holy said they won't give results of a a nice 12 week cycle but they will give results and at 39.95 a bottle or whatever plus not having to worry about delivery it's a great alternative

 

[nemo]

I'm soaking in knowledge,..

 

[Zero V]

research chems are technically legal to buy, its your "miss use" of them that turns them into your PCT. Now if you want actual medication forms of the chemical, then it becomes political.

BTW, i have been seeing paper clomid and paper nolva.... i thought that idea crashed awhile back?

 

[holyintellect]

research chems are technically legal to buy, its your "miss use" of them that turns them into your PCT.

Im not quite so sure about this...I was a consultant for a UG back in the day (LOL), and I know this was directly discussed with the lawyers. It is technically very grey because they are selling prescription drugs. Granted, they arent schedule 3, but still require a script. I find it quite amazing that lately they have basically been operating out in the open without the cover of the internet...Trust me, it will only be a matter of time....

holy

 

[holyintellect]

Personally if I could afford to posses an illegal substance such as nolva then I'd just use real steroids, too. Makes me sick when people ask for a PCT for their legal stuff and someone is telling them to use something illegal. There's probably a reason they went the legal route in the first place, ya know?

Actually, its cheaper a lot of times to use nolva/clomid than it is to purchase their OTC counterparts....That doesnt change the point of illegality though....that has to be a major consideration for most people.

holy

 

[holyintellect]

No matter how many creatine or NO products you take you have to get androgen levels into normal physiological levels. Sub-physiological levels of T [<500ng/dl] will cause dramatic losses of gains.

If you can quickly regain a healthy 700ng-900ng/dl level it’s much easier to hold on to gains.

-Pp

Thanks, and well put...this is exactly what I was trying to imply...creatine will give you gains, but unless you return to your normal hormonal state (which creatine will not do), then when you come off you are STILL going to lose what you've gained...Ultimately you have to return your endogenous test levels to normal, and nolva and clomid are both tried and true....

holy

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

care to share?

2 week cycles should theoretically make for super fast rebound of test levels.. I think the Sustain for the first couple days of PCT double dosed would get the ball(s) rollin' quick fast and in a hurry.

 

[partyman43]

Thanks, and well put...this is exactly what I was trying to imply...creatine will give you gains, but unless you return to your normal hormonal state (which creatine will not do), then when you come off you are STILL going to lose what you've gained...Ultimately you have to return your endogenous test levels to normal, and nolva and clomid are both tried and true....

holy

Understood...... thanks guys:woohoo:

:dance:

 

[crazyfool405]

a lot of the AIs used now have been used in breast cancer pateints in previous years as well, and there is always alternative medicine, there are a lot of things that come into play with SERMs, and test boosters during PCT and a lot of them have been researched thouroughly, just not enough people read enough

 

[ragnar]

nolva and clomid are both tried and true....

What do you think of Torem, holy? A lot of folks these days are crowning it the king of SERMs.

 

[crazyfool405]

What do you think of Torem, holy? A lot of folks these days are crowning it the king of SERMs.

and input on raloxefine if u dont mind

 

[partyman43]

I'm gonna be honest here....Many years ago(probably 10) I did my fair share of injectable cycle....Sus250,anadrol,suspension and decca, as well as, dbol and anadrol(orals)...not once did I ever have a problem with gyno and I never ran post cycle therapy of any kind;yes it was stupid and I was young and all I had to learn off of was a old lifting buddy of mine, who come to find out, was not the most knowledgable individual.

Of course my lifting routine was inconsistent, as well as my diet. I did not keep any gains and it was all a big waste.
But i was much younger then. I have learned a thing or two in my old age though, but still tryin to figure out how to maintain my gains.

 

[crazyfool405]

I'm gonna be honest here....Many years ago(probably 10) I did my fair share of injectable cycle....Sus250,anadrol,suspension and decca, as well as, dbol and anadrol(orals)...not once did I ever have a problem with gyno and I never ran post cycle therapy of any kind;yes it was stupid and I was young and all I had to learn off of was a old lifting buddy of mine, who come to find out, was not the most knowledgable individual.

Of course my lifting routine was inconsistent, as well as my diet. I did not keep any gains and it was all a big waste.
But i was much younger then. I have learned a thing or two in my old age though, but still tryin to figure out how to maintain my gains.

its all about returning to homneostasis the fastest you can, so you can maintain what you gained,, thats why when ran improperly you lose most of it.

 

[dg806]

I would also like to point out, that once you gain x number of lbs of muscle in a cycle, you must also eat enough to keep those gains. Your body naturally will not or can not support but just so much mass. Anything over that limit must be worked for very hard to keep unless it is fat gain.

 

[poacher]

A lot of guys would say our Sustain Alpha works as good as clomid or nolvadex [and without the side-effects]

-Pp

Working AWESOME for me. Oh thanks = that just reminded me to take my Endoamp and toco-8. carry on

 

[mixedup]

Im not quite so sure about this...I was a consultant for a UG back in the day (LOL), and I know this was directly discussed with the lawyers. It is technically very grey because they are selling prescription drugs. Granted, they arent schedule 3, but still require a script. I find it quite amazing that lately they have basically been operating out in the open without the cover of the internet...Trust me, it will only be a matter of time....

holy

Thank you. Alot of people don't realize that these are illegal. If you got a controlled delivery and you had no "research set up" you'd get busted. They would probablly search your house take all your supps for testing etc. Dont' want to scare people or anythign but with the way Our stuff is being looked at now a days it could happen. I mean you can't really explain research chemicals if you are not doing research know what i mean

 

[holyintellect]

Thank you. Alot of people don't realize that these are illegal. If you got a controlled delivery and you had no "research set up" you'd get busted. They would probablly search your house take all your supps for testing etc. Dont' want to scare people or anythign but with the way Our stuff is being looked at now a days it could happen. I mean you can't really explain research chemicals if you are not doing research know what i mean

In my heart, what I feel will wind up happening is that it will be the research chems that will lead the police to the gear user instead of the other way around....Ancillaries are still relatively new to the rest of the world in so much as how they are used by bodybuilders, and the more they catch on and learn that bodybuilders use them to aid in a steroid cycle, the more attention they will garner.

holy

 

[SJA]

Toremifene certainly is the one which I would choose based on experience. But everyone is different. Unfortunately, it's trial and error. If you find something that works for you, then stick with it.

 

[mixedup]

In my heart, what I feel will wind up happening is that it will be the research chems that will lead the police to the gear user instead of the other way around....Ancillaries are still relatively new to the rest of the world in so much as how they are used by bodybuilders, and the more they catch on and learn that bodybuilders use them to aid in a steroid cycle, the more attention they will garner.

holy

that's how i feel. I know of one big company that got popped for it's research chemicals they also sold legit products it was all confiscated and tested. Now they are up to their ears in legal fees etc. I dont' see controlled deliveries too far away for research chemicals either. I mean it's like ordering Fina without a Cow. How is a Salesperson, Accountant, etc going to say they were doing research with these chemicals? it won't fly at the very least you could end up a ton of legal fees and personal embarssment if your got caught with them

 

[pistonpump]

there should be an 'ask holyintellect' thread :lol:

 

[dg806]

Some "research companies" have already got tagged and went out of business.

 

[holyintellect]

Some "research companies" have already got tagged and went out of business.

Thats why it baffles me that those who are still in biz dont even hide behind the anonymous cover of the internet, and advertise in the open.

holy

 

[crazyfool405]

Thats why it baffles me that those who are still in biz dont even hide behind the anonymous cover of the internet, and advertise in the open.

holy

not to mention you dont even know whats stable in liquid form and for how long.