safe steroid cycling and infertility

[bbkhan87]

i did my first bb show couple months ago and now want to do bb competitions for around five years. I know all about pct and such but i read that frequent steroid cycling can lead to infertility, what to do? should i just stick to peptides?

 

[haroldjg]

Well, I'll tell you a couple things. I am not saying go out and be reckless, but the infertility issue is way over rated. Look at all of the old school bbers who never even cycled and still ended up having kids. I also have a few personal experiences to share:

1) A close friend of mine blast and cruised for 5 years straight and has had two kids since. I would not suggest this, but I am just outlining how overblown this stuff is.

2) I was concieved after my dad had been on HRT for 10years!!!! I am not even joking about this. Ohhh and as a side note, he also concieved 4 other kids in that time.

I really dont think you have anything to worry about if you cycle properly. Just look at my dad, he was basically on a continuous cycle for 10 years and concieved 5 kids during that time all while never coming off. He was on a dose of 150mg cyp/week. Its funny cause I used to go the doctor with my dad as kid for him to get his shots. lol. I think its kind of funny I have basically been exposed to this stuff my entire life. lol.

 

[bbkhan87]

oh cus i was just gonna do 3 months on 2 months off, probably for ever maybe a 6 month break awhile from now, i love bodybuilding but i do want a family one day

 

[haroldjg]

I would say that you wont become infertile doing that, but I certainly wouldn't cycle that way myself.... unless maybe if your going to be using HCG on cycle. Your going to have a really hard recovering with that short of time off, especially if your using long esters. With shorter esters, you may be able to get away with it. If your going to run cycles like that you need to have a very, very, well thought out plan. From the sounds of it though, you may want to research the "stasis taper" over at T-N. It would be much better suited to what your trying to accomplish. With it, you could get away with being totally off for maybe 1 month out of 6. preferably though like 2 out of 7 though. I mean, you could do your plan but your going to need HRT at a young age. I dont think you would have problems with fertility, but there is a lot more to this than just fertility.

 

[bbkhan87]

so what would be an all around year round steroid protocol so that i can keep my fertility and gains, thanks so much

 

[haroldjg]

I cant outline everything for you, it would just take too long. Go over to T-N.com and read up on the "stasis taper". Everything is found right there. Here is a little teaser:

This is the protocol:

Following the cycle use a 4-6 week waiting period also refered to as 'stasis period' by somebody.

4 weeks if you are using esters such as propinate.

esters such as cypionate and enanthate are in the middle - 4-6 week waiting period - your decision as it is a tough call. I prefer more weeks then less.

6 week waiting period for esters such as decanoate -i.e. deca.

During the waiting period you should taper off any aromatase inhibitors you are using - basically get rid of all drugs in your system besides testosterone.

Once the waiting period is over, then gradually reduce the dose weekly for 6 weeks untill you are off.

I preffer injecting enanthate twice per week as my ester of choice. But you can use propinate or sustenon as well, just devide it into 3 doses per week.

Once the taper starts, that is around the time you would start using a serm if you are going to use one.

You can taper without a serm and still be successfull doing so.

the research showed no hpta suppression while using a serm and low dose testosterone - 100mg per week

It also showed no hpta suppression with no serm use while using 25mg of testosterone enanthate per week.

So as i said it is possible to taper with our without a serm successfully.

If you are using HCG during the cycle to maintain testicular size and function - you must stop HCG at the end of your cycle and by hcg free throughout the waiting period.


So to put it all together using testosterone enanthatate dose split into biweekly injections:

Cycle ends, stop hcg if using,

start Waiting peroid:

Week 1-6 or 1-4: Test E 100mg per week
Taper off Arimidex or femara fully by week 3

Taper phase:

week 1-6

mg/ week: 80mg / 60mg/ 50mg/ 40mg/ 30 mg/ 20mg.

Start your Serm (nolva or clomid) at the begining of the taper if you choose to do so.


If you decide to use Masteron,

Then you use 50mg Test E, and 50mg Masteron E per week or masteron prop, with test prop for the waiting period, and keep the ratio the same as you taper down as well (1:1, with the starting totol mg amount 100mg).

No Serm use is needed and i have found libido to be even better when using this mix.

the masteron acts as an anti E, and the DHT enhances libido. The masteron itself at that amount does not subtract from hpta function more than it adds libido enhance ment, and estrogen control.

The masteron is the only drug that i have found to fit the bill perfectly for this purpose, but you can try aromasis as well, but I don't think it would have the same positive effects on libido.

As for using other drugs during your pct that may enhance workouts and maintain size...

there are a wide variety of supplements out there that have no negative effect on the hpta.

As for other drugs, some options would be:

IGF, MGF, HGH....

Clenbutoral,

and Insulin which I highly do not recommend.

You need to get over there and read more about it though. Then you can start planning everything out. There are oodles of complexities that can be worked into this method, but the important thing is that you have a thorough understanding of the original method before you ever employ/tweak it.

 

[bbkhan87]

thanks bro really appreciate it

 

[bbkhan87]

so i read it omg why dont more people do this!!!!! you can stop the pct crash and recover. I was also thinking about taking proviron during tapering to jack up sperm count and avoid any long term fertility issues

 

[haroldjg]

Yah, I have heard of a few people doing that. I dont know why more people dont do it myself. I guess it's because of the stigma associated with the term "taper". Everyone thinks that you mean go from 700 to 500 to 200 etc. Which is pointless, but stasis at 100mg and tapering down is quite effective and can be done so without even using serms.

 

[bbkhan87]

one thing i still dont understand is can you start another cycle right after the taper is over

 

[haroldjg]

No, the stasis period counts as neutral time. The taper counts as time off and then obviously time off counts as time off. So 12 weeks on, 4 week stasis, 6 week taper, 6 weeks off. That is of course for complete recovery and safety reasons. You could cut it down a little and maybe still recover 100%

 

[tnick7]

Not joking, but if its a worry, what about freezing some soldiers for the future, just as 'back up'? This may not be an ideal method of conceiving but its surely better than nothing.

 

[bbkhan87]

damn that is smart man i should definitly do that one of my buddy who competes at the national levels says that tapering doesnt work and keeps you shut down, damnit i dont know what to believe

 

[tnick7]

damn that is smart man i should definitly do that one of my buddy who competes at the national levels says that tapering doesnt work and keeps you shut down, damnit i dont know what to believe

I will try and get others to chime in, but as far as my research has lead me, this information is incorrect, tapering down keeps you shutdown. Your body will not begin produce natural testosterone, whilst there is still any exogenous hormones.

There is no point in tapering steroids down, especially longer ester steroids (like mentioned enanth/cyp) because due to their half life they taper themselves out to an extent.

 

[holyintellect]

damn that is smart man i should definitly do that one of my buddy who competes at the national levels says that tapering doesnt work and keeps you shut down, damnit i dont know what to believe

I get paid to prep bodybuilders for shows...I am also in business with an IFBB Pro (who just had his first son this past week by the way), and I am an NPC Judge....I have seen and heard just about everything (although I certainly dont know it all) when it comes to using chemicals. I DO NOT believe tapering is effective, and I would never have a client of mine do it. It takes very little exogenous testosterone to suppress your own natural production. This exact amount is going to vary slightly from person to person, which makes it even more difficult to predict.

Lets look at a little case here that would apply to a lot of bodybuilders...they start out using 500mgs a week...sometime very early on, probably week 4-5-6, they are going to start experiencing suppression of the testes because the feedback loop is going to see way too much testosterone floating around. Now, some guys will be suppressed slightly, some will be suppressed severely, and some will be shut down. You have no way of knowing which of the three will happen, but you do know that IT WILL HAPPEN. Beginning sometime around week 10, you start tapering down to 250mgs...that is still enough to suppress you, and to top it off, you'll have LESS available testosterone than before, so you're likely to start feeling worse than before. You could even taper down to 100mgs the next week, but again, you have no way to pinpoint the point at which suppression begins.

Tapering would work under one set of circumstances...if you could predict EXACTLY the mgs of test you could run and be equal to or below the amount required to suppress yourself. Then your endogenous production would begin, and you'd still be on the tapered dose. This amount would obviously be very different for every single person on the planet, which makes it highly unlikely to become an effective protocol anytime soon.

holy

 

[bbkhan87]

on t nation prisoner said you have a waiting period where you taper down to 100mg of test and than you have the taper period where you go like 80 60 40 25 25 25 of test while using a serm, it makes sense to me but i really want to be sure

 

[holyintellect]

on t nation prisoner said you have a waiting period where you taper down to 100mg of test and than you have the taper period where you go like 80 60 40 25 25 25 of test while using a serm, it makes sense to me but i really want to be sure

Well, it sound like you have your own answer.

holy

 

[haroldjg]

Yah, stick to Prisoners method. Everyone elses taper method using suppressive doses, and is completely uneffective. Prisoners method on the other hand is total gold. Everyone on this board is going to say tapering is bad, and that is true for what they believe tapering is. However with the STASIS taper method, it is very effective. I am sure that many people on this forum know that there studies where it was found that 100mg test cyp/week when administered with chlomide led to zero suppression of LH and SFH. I cant remember the study off hand, but I am pretty sure that a lot of other people know about this. Anyways, as you can tell from the answeres of the other posters that they are completly unfamiliar with Prisoners Stasis Taper method and so they would not be a good source of advice with regards to it.

 

[bbkhan87]

thanks bro i will do it and log it with pics and diet and training with the drug regiment. Worst comes to worse i can always pct after the taper is down. In 6 weeks il start until than, goodbye gentlemen thanks for the help. Il be doing igf 6 weeks on and off too so that should really be a stack: test c 1-12 at 400mg, dbol at 20mg for 1-4 for the kick start and after that igf for 6 weeks.