Phera/Supdrol Layout

UNCfan1

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Whats up guys, need some good honest feedback on this cycle.

CEL PPlex and CEL Mdrol.

My Phera is the 19.2mg. So I will be rounding up.

Week 1- PP-20mg
Week 2- PP-40mg
Week 3- PP-40mg/ SD-10mg
Week 4- SD- 20mg
Week 5- SD- 20mg

Supports-

Pre-Load Cycle Support
Liver Longer/Cycle Support
Taruine
ACES/NoXidant
Gut Health-

PCT-

Nolva- 40,20,20,10mg
Clomid-????
6-OXO- 600,600,300,300mg or Inhibit-E 3,2,2,1
Taurine
ACES/NoXidant
Gut Health
SAMe- 600,600,400,400mg
Cycle Support

SizeON
Purple Wraath
Intracell

Thoughts on Clomid doses? Also thoughts on Phera doses and length.

Stats-

6'4
249lbs
BF- 17-18%

Exp-

3AD
Epi-E
Halodrol-50/Orastan-E
Hemadrol/Propadrol

Edit- I forgot to mention the on and off cycle addition of ALCAR.
 
Last edited:
thaOrleanyte

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Thats a rough cycle from what i understand.... but your a pretty big guy. Dont know if two ''wet bulkers'' should be ran that way, but im no expert. Sad thing is I got a buddy running the same cycle as you (pplex,mdrol) .............................( execpt none of the support supps......... and NO NOLVADEX) and I told him he is a fukkin idiot. Seems like you got all you ducks in a line.

Good luck! let us know how it goes!


ThaO
 
Menacer

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I ran a PP/SD bridge very similar to your layout almost two years ago. I put on around 15lbs and kept probably 10lbs of muscle (I was only around 215lbs when I started the cycle). I had a solid pct with nolva but it still took me a while to recover completely. I would recommend just sticking with one cap of Phera through week three but your a big guy so you may need 40mg until that SD kicks in which doesn't take long.
 
UNCfan1

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I ran a PP/SD bridge very similar to your layout almost two years ago. I put on around 15lbs and kept probably 10lbs of muscle (I was only around 215lbs when I started the cycle). I had a solid pct with nolva but it still took me a while to recover completely. I would recommend just sticking with one cap of Phera through week three but your a big guy so you may need 40mg until that SD kicks in which doesn't take long.
Thanks for the posts guys. Crazy I will take a look at your log.

Menacer, sounds like you had a good cycle. I am hoping the addition of clomid will help me recover faster since its the only one clincally proven to do so.

I will play around with the Phera and see how I respond, I wish I had 10mg caps instead of these 19.2 mg.
 
Ziquor

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This is looking good. For PCT I'd add the 6-OXO in a few weeks into PCT and taper up/down. I'd avoid ATD on this cycle at all costs IMO.
 
UNCfan1

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This is looking good. For PCT I'd add the 6-OXO in a few weeks into PCT and taper up/down. I'd avoid ATD on this cycle at all costs IMO.
That was another thing I was thinking over too. Thanks for the help Z!
 
crazyfool405

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i personally feel like phera will keep gaining into week 5, so im on phera till week 5 and started a bridge of Mdrol,

so far soo good, Libido is ok. all my doses were high too.

but all doses were stoped by no later then 5 pm ,
 
Ziquor

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How are you going to get 40mg PP? When I ran this exact cycle, it came in 15mg caps :think: I did 15/30/30/30 with PP. During the 4th week I added in Super at 10mg and lowered the PP dose to 20mg(had 2 different brands). Then I continued the SD for 2 weeks afterward. 6 weeks was too long IMO. 5 is PERFECT. The entire 6th week I was pissy, had NO libido, was VERY irritable, etc. As for the clomid run it at 50mg every night before bed for the first 2 weeks only. This will help your HPTA and you won't need to worry about clomid's notorious sides at that dose. Add about 6g or so of fish ol daily and it looks good. Also, i'd stay away from inhibit-e(ATD). SOOOOO many of the delayed gyno threads I have read, involved ATD in PCT. Here's my log so you know what to expect. It's a littleeeee lengthy though just to warn you ;) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/88701-bassgod-s-mass.html I gained 15lbs and kept 11. The 4 lost were just glycogen, so don't worry if the scale goes down after the SD is ceased.
Ever since the ban was 'proposed' in April-May, the price of raw materials went up. So ever since then all the newer batches of P-Plex have been 10mg/cap since :thumbsup:
 
Trauma1

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This is looking good. For PCT I'd add the 6-OXO in a few weeks into PCT and taper up/down. I'd avoid ATD on this cycle at all costs IMO.
Agree 100% :thumbsup:
 
Trauma1

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I have some original phera and superdrol that is calling my name as well UNC. :p

I've already mapped out my cycle for when i do it, and it looks similar to what you have here. I agree with Z though about tapering up and then down the 6-oxo. I probably woulnd't even add it in until week 2 either.

Nice to see some quality RPN products in there are well my friend. Best of luck with this. :D
 
Ziquor

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I have some original phera and superdrol that is calling my name as well UNC. :p

I've already mapped out my cycle for when i do it, and it looks similar to what you have here. I agree with Z though about tapering up and then down the 6-oxo. I probably woulnd't even add it in until week 2 either.

Nice to see some quality RPN products in there are well my friend. Best of luck with this. :D

All RPN products are quality products :thumbsup:
 
pistonpump

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Personally the highest ive went was 45mg with phera but dare i say im thinking one can tolerate more dependant on size and experience. Keep an open mind with the phera, watch how you respond. Should be full effect in week 3. I might even run it in week 4 as well if i were you. It seems like all your cycles were mild so maybe do this one conservative. Doses look good, you might consider two week 3's in place of your week 4. get it :think:? Youll see a big difference when running these compounds compared to your past cycles.
 
Kristofer68SS

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Throw the nolva and AI in the trash.......use clomid instead.

get some PCS, Activate or DTH and ZMA

rest of it looks good.

did i mention i hate nolva for superdrol?

did i mention i hate nolva and an AI even more for superdrol?


some of these same guys(giving the ok to the OP's pct protocol) have even eluded gyno problems from superdrol that may have manifested from nolva and using an AI.

go figure?

Not saying your pct wont work.......... Just stating alot of the SD gyno cases came from using a SERM and AI........6-oxo included......

ALOT of variables to be considered here. This bastard gynodrol is very, very , very person dependant.....more so than pct protocol selection. IMO

Info on delayed gyno from Superdrol - DiscountAnabolics.com Forum

CALL OUT: All people who got delayed gyno from SD: Post your exact PCT here - Bodybuilding.com Forums

As the rest of these experts chime in, I will get very little love. Its all good. I am still spreading the word.
 
UNCfan1

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How are you going to get 40mg PP? When I ran this exact cycle, it came in 15mg caps :think: I did 15/30/30/30 with PP. During the 4th week I added in Super at 10mg and lowered the PP dose to 20mg(had 2 different brands). Then I continued the SD for 2 weeks afterward. 6 weeks was too long IMO. 5 is PERFECT. The entire 6th week I was pissy, had NO libido, was VERY irritable, etc. As for the clomid run it at 50mg every night before bed for the first 2 weeks only. This will help your HPTA and you won't need to worry about clomid's notorious sides at that dose. Add about 6g or so of fish ol daily and it looks good. Also, i'd stay away from inhibit-e(ATD). SOOOOO many of the delayed gyno threads I have read, involved ATD in PCT. Here's my log so you know what to expect. It's a littleeeee lengthy though just to warn you ;) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/88701-bassgod-s-mass.html I gained 15lbs and kept 11. The 4 lost were just glycogen, so don't worry if the scale goes down after the SD is ceased.
Bass, the caps I have are the 19.2mg caps, I was just rounding up, but I am going to pick up some 10mg caps.

Thanks for the input buddy, I will read your log tonight when I get some free time. I never got by scales, I check my weight but I am a mirror guy:thumbsup:
 
Ziquor

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Throw the nolva and AI in the trash.......use clomid instead.

get some PCS, Activate or DTH and ZMA

rest of it looks good.

did i mention i hate nolva for superdrol?

did i mention i hate nolva and an AI even more for superdrol?


some of these same guys(giving the ok to the OP's pct protocol) have even eluded gyno problems from superdrol may have mainfested from nolva and using an AI.

go figure?

Not saying your pct wont work.......... Just stating alot of the SD gyno cases came from using a SERM and AI........6-oxo included......

ALOT of variables to be considered here. This bastard gynodrol is very, very , very person dependant.....more so than pct protocol selection. IMO

Info on delayed gyno from Superdrol - DiscountAnabolics.com Forum

CALL OUT: All people who got delayed gyno from SD: Post your exact PCT here - Bodybuilding.com Forums

As the rest of these experts chime in, I will get very little love. Its all good. I am still spreading the word.
Why you say that? Contrary to popular belief Nolva and Clomid do the EXACT same thing, only Nolva works a bit more efficiently and is less toxic. Torem, which is made from Nolva is yet another small step up.
 
Ziquor

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They do not do anywhere near the exact same thing. Nolva's effect on the HPTA is minimal at best. Clomid's on the other hand, is quite strong. Nolva is more toxic than clomid, not the other way around. Clomid is technically not even a SERM btw, most "bro scientists" just think it is. It is actually a fertility drug. It is used to treat infertility in women. For someone with breast cancer, tamox or evista(raloxifene) are commonly used. Clomid is better than tamox on all fronts other than gyno reduction. You don't need tamox to not get gyno. In CLINICAL TRIALS it actually does very little for reduction, but helps a lot with the pain.

It's a common misconception that they're different just becasue they were marketed for different uses. Clomid was marketed as an ovulation med by the company who originated it and Nolva was marketed as a SERM - though both are SERMs and have the same mechanism of action. Nolva increases Natural Test, LH, & FSH more than Clomid and at much lower doses. Negative side effects are much lower with Nolvadex too.



On ovulation both have the same effect:

Comparison of tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate for ovulation induction: a meta-analysis -- Steiner et al. 20 (6): 1511 -- Human Reproduction



More on ovulation:

ivf-infertility.com | Ovulation induction by Tamoxifen



General Comparison:

http:

//www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm



I also have Lelwellyn's Anabolics book which states more of the above as well.
 
Ziquor

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Clomid antagonizes estrogen receptors in the HPTA. It increases FSH and LH secretion by blocking estrogen's negative feedback inhibition of gonadotropin secretion. This is not tamoxifen's mechanism of action, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. TIME TO LIFT AND DO WORK!! :) Sorry your thread got messed up UNC :(

Tamoxifen works by blocking these oestrogen receptors, thereby blocking the effect of oestrogen on the cancer. This reduces the size of oestrogen-sensitive tumours. Tamoxifen is also used in the treatment of female infertility that is caused by problems with ovulation. Again, it acts by blocking oestrogen receptors, this time in a part of the brain called the hypothalamus. The effect of this is an increase in the levels of the hormones that control the development and release of an egg. These hormones are released from the pituitary gland and are known as follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinising hormone (LH). FSH stimulates the ovaries and LH causes the release of an egg from the ovaries (ovulation). In the normal menstrual cycle, oestrogen acts on receptors in the hypothalamus after ovulation. This causes the pituitary gland to stop releasing FSH and LH. As tamoxifen blocks the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus, it prevents this action of oestrogen. FSH and LH levels therefore increase, which increases the chances of egg development and ovulation.
(Excerpt from http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/healthfitness/health_advice/netdoctor/archive/100002526.html)



Both act as SERMs and both act as ovulation stimulators. Nolva at 20mg has been shown to increase LH, FSH, and Testosterone in men a little more so than 150mg of Clomid - and the 20mg of Nolva would be less toxic and had a less incidence of sides than 150mg of Clomid. They both do the same thing only Nolva does it more efficiently and at lower doses. Also Nolva is typically cheaper, and I'm not talking the shady liquid versions :thumbsup:




Nolvadex

This drug is used as a first line defense against breast cancer. In the late 80´s, Dan Duchaine speculated that it could also be used by bodybuilders to halt the development of another type of tumor in the mammary gland, Gynocomastia. He introduced this find to the Steroid-using-community in his "Contest Prep" issue of the UnderGround Steroid Handbook Update Newsletters (the contest prep-issue was actually 3 issues in one, for those who had a subscription to the newsletter).

Nolvadex is commonly referred to in quite a few ways: as a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator), as an anti-estrogen (that is actually incorrect, as we will later see), and finally as a triphenylethylene. I happen to stick with calling Nolvadex a SERM, because out of my three options, it happens to be correct (as we know that calling it an anti-estrogen is incorrect), and pronouncable (as we know that I have no idea how to say "triphenylethylene"). Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) act as either estrogen receptor agonists or antagonists in a tissue-selective manner, lets see what that means to us.

Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it´s most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (1), especially since total body estradiol increases with use of tamoxifen. Clearly, if you are on a cycle which includes steroids which convert to estrogen, you may want to consider nolvadex as a good choice to run along side them.


Nolvadex Cycle

Nolvadex, however, is not the most potent ancillary compound we can use on a cycle, but it is probably the safest considering it doesn´t actually reduce estrogen in your body keeping some estrogen floating around could have many benefits on muscle growth, as well. Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (4). Many bodybuilders actually use this stuff during their cycle for the health benefits provided by it. If, however, you are preparing for a bodybuilding contest, you need to use something which will suck most (if not all) of the estrogen out of your body. I am speculating that you may be able to use Nolvadex for the majority of a contest prep cycle, to keep yourself relatively healthy, and then switch over to Letrozole for the last 8 weeks.
Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (2)(3). The best (rough) estimate I can give you from my research is that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (5)...and this would of course greatly aid post-cycle-recovery. What this means to us is that if you take Nolvadex after a cycle, when you are trying to raise your levels of testosterone, LH, and FSH back to normal, it will greatly aid recovery. In fact, if I were limited to just one compound to aid me in post-cycle-recovery, Nolvadex would be my choice. If you want a comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but nolvadex also significantly increased the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRL (5), after 6 weeks.
Some of the more harsh ancillary compounds available today will give you a more "dry" look that nolvadex can´t, but nolvadex is simply safer to use in long (over 16 week) cycles.


Nolvadex Side Effects

Unfortunately, Nolvadex isn´t perfect. Anecdotally, it has been linked to reduced gains in some bodybuilders. This isn´t due, as previously thought, to its reducing estrogen levels (which it doesn´t), but rather to it´s ability to possibly reduce IGF (Insulin-like-Growth-Factor) levels, which are important for muscle growth. (Common to SERMs)

- Bill Roberts
 
pistonpump

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They do not do anywhere near the exact same thing. Nolva's effect on the HPTA is minimal at best. Clomid's on the other hand, is quite strong. Nolva is more toxic than clomid, not the other way around. Clomid is technically not even a SERM btw, most "bro scientists" just think it is. It is actually a fertility drug. It is used to treat infertility in women. For someone with breast cancer, tamox or evista(raloxifene) are commonly used. Clomid is better than tamox on all fronts other than gyno reduction. You don't need tamox to not get gyno. In CLINICAL TRIALS it actually does very little for reduction, but helps a lot with the pain.
i have to disagree. im with Z on this. They are the same animal but Nolva was made from Clomids mold and improved so it really is better than Clomid in all areas.
 
tnick7

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This is looking good. For PCT I'd add the 6-OXO in a few weeks into PCT and taper up/down. I'd avoid ATD on this cycle at all costs IMO.
I agree. Add the 6-oxo in week 2 or 3 taper up then down after the nolva. But can I ask why avoid ATD? I personally like it at very low dose (25mg ED or EOD)

Thanks

Also UNC, I think this cycle maybe one you take as it comes. You may need 4 weeks on phera (depending on when it kicks in). Also for SD 2 weeks may be enough (it was for me!). So since you havent run these compounds I think you have to just take it as it comes at you. Good luck bro

P.S: I agree, Nolva is plenty
 
crazyfool405

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i have to disagree. im with Z on this. They are the same animal but Nolva was made from Clomids mold and improved so it really is better than Clomid in all areas.

nolva acts as a estrogen blocker in the hypothalamus, but clomid directly stimulates the pituitary to do its job,
 
pistonpump

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im gonna find the study and pwn you fools.

(whatever 'pwn' is..)
 
Kristofer68SS

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Clomid antagonizes estrogen receptors in the HPTA. It increases FSH and LH secretion by blocking estrogen's negative feedback inhibition of gonadotropin secretion. This is not tamoxifen's mechanism of action, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. TIME TO LIFT AND DO WORK!! :) Sorry your thread got messed up UNC :(

There is a lot of theory/speculation that nolva(in males) overstimulates the ER and/or the PGr's which equate to gyno or delayed gyno.......... in relation to Superdrol.

Thats enough evidence for me.........I believe its the later. PGr's.

clomid and nolva are not the same. fact.
 
UNCfan1

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I agree. Add the 6-oxo in week 2 or 3 taper up then down after the nolva. But can I ask why avoid ATD? I personally like it at very low dose (25mg ED or EOD)

Thanks

Also UNC, I think this cycle maybe one you take as it comes. You may need 4 weeks on phera (depending on when it kicks in). Also for SD 2 weeks may be enough (it was for me!). So since you havent run these compounds I think you have to just take it as it comes at you. Good luck bro

P.S: I agree, Nolva is plenty
I agree tnick. I was thinking from feedback that 4-5 weeks is best for Phera. So I will run it for 4 and add in the SD and go from there.

My thing with Nolva/Clomid is to use the Nolva for gyno protection and Clomid for LH boost, cause I expect to be pretty damn shutdown and I don't want to take any chances. I am not worried about gyno, maybe a stupid statement but I am not, I am not taking these lightly either just my thoughts on it.

I forgot to mention I have pulsed AX Superdrol and AX ErgoMax so I have some level of experience but not as much as I want.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.
 
crazyfool405

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im gonna find the study and pwn you fools.

(whatever 'pwn' is..)

pwn basically means imma kick you in the nuts.... or just kicked you in the nuts,

or im right and heres my proof you ass
 
tnick7

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I agree tnick. I was thinking from feedback that 4-5 weeks is best for Phera. So I will run it for 4 and add in the SD and go from there.

My thing with Nolva/Clomid is to use the Nolva for gyno protection and Clomid for LH boost, cause I expect to be pretty damn shutdown and I don't want to take any chances. I am not worried about gyno, maybe a stupid statement but I am not, I am not taking these lightly either just my thoughts on it.

I forgot to mention I have pulsed AX Superdrol and AX ErgoMax so I have some level of experience but not as much as I want.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

Some wil argue clomid and nolva will compete with the receptors. Whether its true or not IDK. I honestly think go for one or the other with this cycle. Although it will probably shut you down hard, I think either/or is enough. You could run the SERM of choice for 5 weeks as oppose to 4 e.g Nolva 40/20/20/20/10 and add in 6-oxo midway, taper up/down to prevent rebound
 
SoCo4Fun

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pwn means own. Sometimes when you type fast you hit the wrong key. For instance a 'p' instead of an 'o' since they are right next to each other on the keyboard...and now you understand pwn. :D

Now post up some studies about this whole nolva/clomid thing....I'm curious.
 
tnick7

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I'd run the clomid as it does not decrease IGF levels like Nolva does. It also does not protect against gyno as well as nolva does. Stick with the same AI protocol to prevent a rebound. The AI should keep estro in check while the clomid does its thing, then the AI continued and tapered back down after the SERM is ceased, should prevent a rebound. This is what i'm doing for PCT of my current cycle.

IMO either will work. I only have experience with nolva so I cant comment much beyond that:thumbsup:
 
UNCfan1

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I'd run the clomid as it does not decrease IGF levels like Nolva does. It also does not protect against gyno as well as nolva does. Stick with the same AI protocol to prevent a rebound. The AI should keep estro in check while the clomid does its thing, then the AI continued and tapered back down after the SERM is ceased, should prevent a rebound. This is what i'm doing for PCT of my current cycle.
Thanks for posting that Tnick.

Yes Bass, thats what I was thinking after reading Tnicks post.

I am about to go read your log.
 
Kristofer68SS

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Will you just run the damn SD already!?? :lol: Then you can do your own PCT and give even more feedback as to what works and what doesn't. C'mon be a guinea pig, I was. ;) He'll be fine with the AI as long as the dose is tapered back down after the SERM of choice is ceased.
I thank your liver and your boys for the feedback, lol.

not sold on a pct yet bro.............

Clomid, ldex/6-oxo tapered up then down...........maybe.......very slight maybe

more like clomid with some estro mangagement........... PCS, Lean xtreme, actX,DTH, ZMA that type of stuff.

I have entertained the idea of L-tor, but I hate nolva so much, i just cant do it........Not for gynodrol.......Real test, yes. clomid & nolva, ldex depending on bloat.

Maybe go nutz and do that OTC PCT that Dmangielli(sp?) did.

No super this year, maybe next..........10mg , 21 days.

I would want to definately do bloowork pre, post, post pct........ That there lies the problem as well......... My doctor just wont let me do 3 bloodtests like that. I can get 1 maybe 2 a year.

Out of pocket would be 400-500 dollars a whack I would imagine.

Any suggestions?

Maybe i need a new doc?
 
Kristofer68SS

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Will you just run the damn SD already!?? :lol: Then you can do your own PCT and give even more feedback as to what works and what doesn't. C'mon be a guinea pig, I was. ;) He'll be fine with the AI as long as the dose is tapered back down after the SERM of choice is ceased.
Just wondering if you got a chance to read through this article.

In support of Superdrol - Bodybuilding.com Forums

And alot of the logic behind NO ATD,AI, 6-oxo for gynodrol. Big cat in particular

Not stating he is correct, just asking your thoughts.
 
Trauma1

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I thank your liver and your boys for the feedback, lol.

not sold on a pct yet bro.............

Clomid, ldex/6-oxo tapered up then down...........maybe.......very slight maybe

more like clomid with some estro mangagement........... PCS, Lean xtreme, actX,DTH, ZMA that type of stuff.

I have entertained the idea of L-tor, but I hate nolva so much, i just cant do it........Not for gynodrol.......Real test, yes. clomid & nolva, ldex depending on bloat.

Maybe go nutz and do that OTC PCT that Dmangielli(sp?) did.

No super this year, maybe next..........10mg , 21 days.

I would want to definately do bloowork pre, post, post pct........ That there lies the problem as well......... My doctor just wont let me do 3 bloodtests like that. I can get 1 maybe 2 a year.

Out of pocket would be 400-500 dollars a whack I would imagine.

Any suggestions?

Maybe i need a new doc?
Get a new doctor for sure. I've worked in this field many years and can tell you that if you're not happy with one, find another one.

My primary physician is a nice guy that lets me get bloodwork done pretty much when i request it (being in the medical field myself may help a bit her as well though), however your insurance coverage is also a big factor as well. Thankfully my wife works for the government as a nurse, so we get really good coverage.

How is your medical insurance coverage?
 
crazyfool405

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I'd run the clomid as it does not decrease IGF levels like Nolva does. It also does not protect against gyno as well as nolva does. Stick with the same AI protocol to prevent a rebound. The AI should keep estro in check while the clomid does its thing, then the AI continued and tapered back down after the SERM is ceased, should prevent a rebound. This is what i'm doing for PCT of my current cycle.
anpother good posting!!!

ive been trying to show people all things prolactin related, happen when something interacts with the 5a Reductase. (i havent seen many people using clomid, only nolva) nolva can sensitize certain receptors and BAM prolactin and gyno after post cycle.

CLOMID is always better, it mimics the pituitary instead of just blocking estrogen in the hypothalmus, causing a much better signal to the testes.

clomid is especially better when running something that interacts with the 5a reductase.
 
Ziquor

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They are not the same. Similiar mechanisms, but they are NOT the same.

Tamoxifen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clomifene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


One increases test, semi blocks estrogen- clomid
Once blocks estrogen, semi increases test- nolva

very simply comparison, very simple.

oh yeah, you can add "carcinogen" into nolva's wonderful capabilities...lol...

Be careful with an AI.......... Im tellin ya..........

Wikipedia is the biggest source of misinformation I've seen. A 12 year old can create an account there and write-up a description of something and all the mods have to do is accept it. Not to mention that makes no sense, there numerous studies showing 20mg of Nolva increases test equal to 150 mg clomid.

All clinical SERMs and non-steroidal AI's decrease IGF levels with the exception of Letrozole where the data is unreliable. Arimidex decreases IGF by average of 18%, Nolva 23.5%, Clomiphene 21%, and Faslodex 70%.

Anything under 30% is minimal and won't effect anything. Reiterating as Piston said, Nolva was chemically made from Clomid as a more potent version (but marketed for a different symptom), and Torem was made from Nolva as a slightly more potent version with less sides.

All block estro at the receptor in breast tissue, all raise natural test levels, all raise LH & FSH (HPTA). And all have similar side effects though Clomid has the highest incidence of sides and has caused more people to go blind than any other SERM. They're all the same chemical with slight modifications and all do the same thing to a different degree.
 
Ziquor

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Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7. Related Articles, Links


Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

PMID: 640052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
:thumbsup:
 
Kristofer68SS

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Get a new doctor for sure. I've worked in this field many years and can tell you that if you're not happy with one, find another one.

My primary physician is a nice guy that lets me get bloodwork done pretty much when i request it (being in the medical field myself may help a bit her as well though), however your insurance coverage is also a big factor as well. Thankfully my wife works for the government as a nurse, so we get really good coverage.

How is your medical insurance coverage?

Its good...... But I know she has to order it, i just cant go into Quest and ask for it........

I am just a little leary on evidence or evidence of activity that leans toward illegal substance(steroid)use......

How would i explain bloodwork needed that many times in 3 or 4 months?

I am sure i could get away with 2, the bloowork out of whack (after cycle) and post pct(second testing). If the precycle work is good, how would i get that post cycle work ordered?

Clear as mud?
 
Kristofer68SS

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Wikipedia is the biggest source of misinformation I've seen. A 12 year old can create an account there and write-up a description of something and all the mods have to do is accept it. Not to mention that makes no sense, there numerous studies showing 20mg of Nolva increases test equal to 150 mg clomid.

All clinical SERMs and non-steroidal AI's decrease IGF levels with the exception of Letrozole where the data is unreliable. Arimidex decreases IGF by average of 18%, Nolva 23.5%, Clomiphene 21%, and Faslodex 70%.

Anything under 30% is minimal and won't effect anything. Reiterating as Piston said, Nolva was chemically made from Clomid as a more potent version (but marketed for a different symptom), and Torem was made from Nolva as a slightly more potent version with less sides.

All block estro at the receptor in breast tissue, all raise natural test levels, all raise LH & FSH (HPTA). And all have similar side effects though Clomid has the highest incidence of sides and has caused more people to go blind than any other SERM. They're all the same chemical with slight modifications and all do the same thing to a different degree.

Okay, wikipedia is more than that........Its kind of similiar to mozilla, firefox.........Many contribute, but the information has to have some merit....... Its not like most of the personal opinionated information spewed around here.....myself inluded:)

Heres a read for ya........From a doctor I believe........ Talk about an OTC PCT breakdown in your face..........I love it.....


http://www.musclemecca.com/showthread.php/post-cycle-therapy-clinicians-view-23016.html?p=426095


Heres some excerpts i really enjoyed-

"(1) Aromatase Inhibitors

EVIDENCE-BASED EFFICACY: Unfortunately, studies performed by individuals without vested interest are NON-EXISTENT!!! Some wonderful hypotheses have been constructed, however, and on paper, they are not without merit – but my curiosity got the better of me as to how serum lab values would respond to use of various items suggested last time. While this in-house study is still underway, preliminary data suggests that the serum changes seen are those of average 3-fold increases in estradiol and subsequent increases in testosterone are NON-existent."

"CAUTION: Nolvadex, a commonly-puported “must-have” by many authorities during PCT. This is an obvious display of their ignorance and blatant disregard for drug-drug interaction as Nolvadex (discussed at greater length in part IV) is metabolized through the 3A4. Now, in addition to people starting at dosing parameters as high as 40mg (which is a highly unnecessary dose even for the heaviest of cycles) with a 7-day half-life, you have increasing toxic levels in addition to what you have already put together. Retinopathy or liver toxicity anyone?"


Was it the superdrol or nolva that caused my jaundice?.......lol
 
Ziquor

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Okay, wikipedia is more than that........Its kind of similiar to mozilla, firefox.........Many contribute, but the information has to have some merit....... Its not like most of the personal opinionated information spewed around here.....myself inluded:)

Heres a read for ya........From a doctor I believe........ Talk about an OTC PCT breakdown in your face..........I love it.....


http://www.musclemecca.com/showthread.php/post-cycle-therapy-clinicians-view-23016.html?p=426095


Heres some excerpts i really enjoyed-

"(1) Aromatase Inhibitors

EVIDENCE-BASED EFFICACY: Unfortunately, studies performed by individuals without vested interest are NON-EXISTENT!!! Some wonderful hypotheses have been constructed, however, and on paper, they are not without merit – but my curiosity got the better of me as to how serum lab values would respond to use of various items suggested last time. While this in-house study is still underway, preliminary data suggests that the serum changes seen are those of average 3-fold increases in estradiol and subsequent increases in testosterone are NON-existent."

"CAUTION: Nolvadex, a commonly-puported “must-have” by many authorities during PCT. This is an obvious display of their ignorance and blatant disregard for drug-drug interaction as Nolvadex (discussed at greater length in part IV) is metabolized through the 3A4. Now, in addition to people starting at dosing parameters as high as 40mg (which is a highly unnecessary dose even for the heaviest of cycles) with a 7-day half-life, you have increasing toxic levels in addition to what you have already put together. Retinopathy or liver toxicity anyone?"


Was it the superdrol or nolva that caused my jaundice?.......lol
Nice opinions, I've seen probably all of Dr Hauser's writings as he posts on here too. But speaking of SERMs in general, that last statement is profound since Clomid is more toxic than Nolva. Let's be real about the toxicty of SERM's though. If one is running a steroid cycle this is the last of ones worries. Toxicity of steroidal AI's would likely be much worse. This is like an alcoholic who drinks 2 gallons of vodka a day saying he won't drink beer because it's toxic :eek:
 
tnick7

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Nice opinions, I've seen probably all of Dr Hauser's writings as he posts on here too. That last statement is profound since Clomid is more toxic than Nolva. Let's be real about the toxicty of SERM's though. If one is running a steroid cycle this is the last of ones worries. Toxicity of steroidal AI's would likely be much worse. This is like an alcoholic who drinks 2 gallons of vodka a day saying he won't drink beer because it's toxic :eek:

Beer goes straight to my hips :D
 
Ziquor

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Dr. Hauser is the physician I was referring to earlier. I will go by what he says, not some study. You guys can do what you wish. :)

He has some great advice IMO. Though as far as experience goes I'm fairly certain he's never ran anything personally, unless he has recently. He also seems to think Resveratrol for PCT is a joke.
 
tnick7

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He has some great advice IMO. Though as far as experience goes I'm fairly certain he's never ran anything personally, unless he has recently. He also seems to think Resveratrol for PCT is a joke.
I must admit I am not a fan of reversitol in the slightest. What are peoples opinions here?
 
Ziquor

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Where in that article does he say that? This is from the Doc himself on another board regarding SERM's(Torem specifically). LISTEN UP:

Registered users question to the Doc: "Doc, I thought of another minor question in regards to the SERM protocol. Is the 60mg Torem in regards to effective estrogen control, taking toxicity into consideration, rejuvenation of hpta function, or a combination of the above? Reason being, I believe the "bro science" logic for 120mg start was a quick hpta restoration. After your explanation concerning the 7day active life, I'm thinking hpta should be restored just as efficiently with your suggested dosages. Or to ask the question from the opposite point of view, is 60mg sufficient to restart hpta function?"


Dr H's response: "Many of the SERMs don't do an adequate job at HPTA restoration P-E-R-I-O-D (Clomid aside, but it isn't your prototype SERM class agent outside of structurally). It is fortunate that the return of baseline HPTA function will usually be in progress when adequate cessation of exogenous agents takes place.

Unfortunately, I cannot say one way or the other with certainty though as my clinical experience resides with clomid > ralox > tamox > torem. I imagine people have jumped the gun a bit as initial suggestion in the literature didn't seem to approximate this phenomenal effect on HPTA with this agent AT ALL, but time will tell. Certainly not high on the priority list of study protocols for the medical/clinical studies." -Dr. H

There's much conflicting information in the PCT postings he had made. Nolva is the top recommended SERM (for reasons posted earlier in his write-up), then from what you say it is not, Tribulus is crucially important for PCT/recovery, SAM-E is the best liver protectant. But this's getting off the point I suppose. I'd be uninterestedly curious to see this doc's comparison of strictly Nolva vs. Clomid along with the studies that granted his opinion.

Regardless though - with clinical indications that 20mg of Nolva increases male Testosterone, LH, & FSH (HPTA) a bit better than 150mg of Clomid (which is again more toxic than the 20mg Nolva dose and with more sides) - what's the point? Nolva does every thing Clomid does only a bit more efficiently and with less sides and less toxicity. This all coming from clinical studies as I posted above, plus also coming from possibly the most knowledgeable man the AAS field has seen - Mr. Bill Roberts who holds a bachelor's degree in Microbiology and Cell Science, and a doctoral degree (Ph.D.) in Medicinal Chemistry. :stick:
 
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smshannon001

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this debate should be a sticky for all to consider when lookin for a serm
 
Kristofer68SS

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Resveratrol IS a joke for PCT because you need such a high dose to get the desired effect. This is not cost effective, that is why he doesn't like it much. No, he has never ran anything himself, but he has helped and seen thousandssss of users, so he knows wtf he's talking about. Also, trans-res in an estro agonists in some tissue and an antagonist in others, so it's sketchy. Clomid, an AI like 6-oxo or something similar, a natty test booster, and an anti-coritsol supp added after 2 weeks into PCT is all you need. You can add an N.O. supp, creatine, etc if you wish.
I with you on this pct for normal test and most designers. I still feel strongly that an AI is not necessarily a good idea on superdrol...........Slippery slope. 6-oxo maybe, definately no ldex.

Heres a lot of "real world" ancedotes of men using clomid and or HCG to bring test back. Interesting read.

Clomid Therapy - MESO-Rx

Why are more doctors using clomid to recover test and sperm count than nolva if they "do the same thing"?

Another excerpt plagerized from the net.

Concerning the length of a clomid protocol.

"The claim that duration of intake should not exceed 10-14 days is incorrect. Clinical studies with male patients have been for periods of a year or longer. This error probably originates from the fact that, for use in women, due to the menstrual cycle there would obviously be no point in trying to stimulate ovulation all four weeks of the month. Thus, use in women is limited to 10-14 days. That limitation is not because of toxicity."


I have searched and searched, there is just very little actual reliable real world data on either nolva or clomid in the male........THat i can find....... Most of it is all based on females.

I still prefer clomid over Nolva for actual test recovery. Nolva for E blocker, in typical test cycles............. Not counting gynodrol.
 

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