First cycle critique

Prometherion

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Well boys, it is time. The darkside is calling, and I'm answering. This is the layout...

Weeks:
1-12 Test E 500mg
1-4 Havoc 20/30/30/30

PCT:
Nolva 40/30/20/20
PP Recovery stack

Support supplements:
Hawthorne Berry
NAC
SAMe
Taurine
Celery Seed Extract
Pantothenic Acid
P-5-P

Other Supplements:
Fish Oil
Multivitamin
Protein Powder(UP 2.0)
Gut Health
NOxidant

About me:
I am 24, soon to be 25. I've been training since high school, however during and since high school I played in a band and couldn't be as committed as I would have liked. That said, the last two or three years I have been dead on with training and diet and am no longer playing in the band. Currently I am 190-195 at 8-10% BF. I have competed naturally and got second place. Also, I run a gym and am a personal trainer so I feel I have the knowledge and opportunity to take full advantage of this cycle.

One question, I have a couple bottles of Dermacrine and was wondering if there is a good way to use one of them on the cycle. I know it tends to go well with Havoc, however I have the test with it as well. I've also seen that it can go well after the last injections of long estered hormones. Would it be good to use in the two weeks between the last injection and PCT?

Oh, and what about using IGF-1LR3 in PCT?

I appreciate any advice you guys can give.
 
panther77

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for the most part looks on par bro... idk a lot bout this but the pct looks a lil light imo... wait for a more experienced guy tho
 
Royd The Noyd

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Your pct looks fine with the nolva and PP products.

Use the derm on cycle if you run into libido/performance issues (unlikely but possible). You could use it during the last two weeks of cycle as it is in and out of the system relatively quickly (once you cease its use).

IGF is great but probably not needed. Save the money for more aas at this point.
 
mooch2321

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nolva doesnt stimulate lh function it only blocks estrogen from binding to a shbg molecule. i like clomid and an ai for pct
 
tnick7

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:stick:

Anymore input?
Cycle looks good. When do you plan on starting PCT? Week 15? With the Dermacrine in Week 13-14? (Sorry didnt quite understand you)

PCT looks good, but maybe run the Nolva 40/20/20/20/10, which is what I would do (however not necessary).
 
Prometherion

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Cycle looks good. When do you plan on starting PCT? Week 15? With the Dermacrine in Week 13-14? (Sorry didnt quite understand you)

PCT looks good, but maybe run the Nolva 40/20/20/20/10, which is what I would do (however not necessary).
I planned on starting PCT two weeks after last injection. During those two weeks between the last inj. and PCT I thought I might use the Dermacrine.

Thanks for the input.
 
pistonpump

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Okay first of i must :clap2: for your thread starting post. Very good example on how people should ask questions on cycles etc i mean with background and stats and all laid out easy to read...reps for that.

I would run Havoc again from weeks 11-14, it will help you gain a lil more the last weeks, solidify the gains a lil, and bridge the gap between last inject and PCT. Not neccessary tho.

THe PCT looks good youll need to add in other things however like prewo supps and creatine, aminos etc.

I like the suggestions for dermacrine but i would suggest running it the first 4 weeks with the Havoc as the test wont be in effect then so the Deramcrine will act as a test sub. You can also use oncycle for loss of energy and libido but i doubt that will be a problem for you.

IGF1LR3.... its good in PCT i feel it helps me hold strength and it supposedly gets LH going but im not sure on that. It is good to use but its only as good as its source.

Very well done. Good luck with it, when do you start?
 
Prometherion

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Okay first of i must :clap2: for your thread starting post. Very good example on how people should ask questions on cycles etc i mean with background and stats and all laid out easy to read...reps for that.

I would run Havoc again from weeks 11-14, it will help you gain a lil more the last weeks, solidify the gains a lil, and bridge the gap between last inject and PCT. Not neccessary tho.

THe PCT looks good youll need to add in other things however like prewo supps and creatine, aminos etc.

I like the suggestions for dermacrine but i would suggest running it the first 4 weeks with the Havoc as the test wont be in effect then so the Deramcrine will act as a test sub. You can also use oncycle for loss of energy and libido but i doubt that will be a problem for you.

IGF1LR3.... its good in PCT i feel it helps me hold strength and it supposedly gets LH going but im not sure on that. It is good to use but its only as good as its source.

Very well done. Good luck with it, when do you start?

Thanks Piston. About using the Havoc again at the end.. by the time I start I'll have on hand D-bol, P-Plex, XTren and Havoc. Do you think it would be better to say, kickstart with Dbol, and then finish with Havoc?


I'm thinking I'll probably hold off on the IGF until sometime after PCT and see how it works by itself.

Oh yeah, not sure when I'll start. I posted this to make sure everything seemed in check. I'll probably buy the stuff this week and wait until everything comes in to start.
 
tnick7

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Thanks Piston. About using the Havoc again at the end.. by the time I start I'll have on hand D-bol, P-Plex, XTren and Havoc. Do you think it would be better to say, kickstart with Dbol, and then finish with Havoc?


I'm thinking I'll probably hold off on the IGF until sometime after PCT and see how it works by itself.

Oh yeah, not sure when I'll start. I posted this to make sure everything seemed in check. I'll probably buy the stuff this week and wait until everything comes in to start.

IMO kick-start with the d-bol or pplex (but you may want to run an AI if you use d-bol), then use the havoc to close the cycle off and dry out the gains. However if you havent used any steroids before (i.e never ran any designers or orals) I would say stick to the original plan IMO. Good luck bro
 
Prometherion

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So you think for a first timer just use Havoc and save the other stuff for another cycle? What do you think about what piston said with running the dermacrine with havoc for a kickstart?
 
tnick7

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So you think for a first timer just use Havoc and save the other stuff for another cycle? What do you think about what piston said with running the dermacrine with havoc for a kickstart?

For sure, you could do it. I dont think its necessary, but if you have it why not, because as Piston said, some people get lethargic on Havoc and the Test wont really kick in until you finish Havoc. Should be a great cycle.

Just some advise, (looking at what you know I guess you know this though) make sure you have ALL you ancillaries on hand before you start your cycle. Also maybe get an AI (arimidex or letro) to have on hand.
 
pistonpump

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good advice tnick7.

As far as the orals go i would say if you are totally natural so far Havoc is a good one to start with. So say you start with havoc, get lethargy...use dermacrine. Ok now when week 10,11 comes around you make the decision based on how the cycle is going and your previous experience with havoc and decided whether or not to end with havoc as well. Now if you think you are ready then jumpstart with Dbol but dbol can have its fair share of sides as with Havoc they are almost nonexistant so the choice is yours. I think you get the picture im trying to paint here. I also reccommend having and AI and enough SERM to run the full cycle, before you cycle. You see some people are prone to gyno, you wont really know until you start running AAS but for instance, i ran a SERM almost my whole cycle last cycle because i had to keep gyno at bay.
 
Prometherion

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Yeah, I'll have everything on hand before starting. I think I'll get Nolva and Clomid just cause... but what do you guys prefer for an on cycle AI? Letro, ADex?

Oh, should I have HCG just in case as well?
 
crazyfool405

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i would pulse the epi this way you wont necessarily need to run an AI on cycle, and you can use higher doses.

i agree with clomid and an AI for PCT.
 
crazyfool405

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adex over letro,

and hCG for long cycles 14+

but i dont think your running enough to warrant the hCG, def have it tho, PCT for hCG would look like this

1 week after your last shot
2000 iu e3d for total of 5 shots then
100mg clomid for 3 weeks
Adex should be run .5 mg everyday during the 5 week PCT
 
Maxwell600

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A+ thread.
Reps to all giving advice.
Bookmarked for future cycle for myself.
 
crazyfool405

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i still think aromasin is better PCT then letro.

and possibly pulsing the epi/havoc u may not even need an AI on cycle,

i would consider pulsing it
 
pistonpump

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i still think aromasin is better PCT then letro.

and possibly pulsing the epi/havoc u may not even need an AI on cycle,

i would consider pulsing it
have you used all three main AI's? We arent referring to letro for PCT we are referring to oncycle aid....

Letro quite honestly is just the best bang for the buck. Its effective at low doses and if real trouble arises it can be dosed super strong. Adex is a waste of money imo when letro is available. Aromasin ive never used but seems like the best AI im not sure how much it hinders gains since it is a steroidal AI it may take up some receptor space from the actual androgens. If we are talking about PCT then yes Aromasin would get my vote but then again i personally dont like strong AI in PCT.
 
Prometherion

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Personally, from the research I've done, I'm not really looking to do a pulse at this point. Do you think letro is better ON cycle and ASin /ADex is better POST cycle?


Again, thanks for all the input.
 
pistonpump

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Personally, from the research I've done, I'm not really looking to do a pulse at this point. Do you think letro is better ON cycle and ASin /ADex is better POST cycle?


Again, thanks for all the input.
generally yes. I dont use much if any but eod or e3d is enough with letro. I dont mind bloat because i know it will go away but if think im having other problems with Estro then i might use it. I use SERM oncycle because it works better for me overall. If you dont have any problems then there is no need to use AI or SERM on cycle imo.

Pulsing may just complicate a straight forward cycle, I wouldnt do that. Keep it simple with a jumpstart and reg cycle or jumpstart and finisher w/ the reg cycle....ancillaries on hand.
 
tnick7

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generally yes. I dont use much if any but eod or e3d is enough with letro. I dont mind bloat because i know it will go away but if think im having other problems with Estro then i might use it. I use SERM oncycle because it works better for me overall. If you dont have any problems then there is no need to use AI or SERM on cycle imo.

Pulsing may just complicate a straight forward cycle, I wouldnt do that. Keep it simple with a jumpstart and reg cycle or jumpstart and finisher w/ the reg cycle....ancillaries on hand.

x2. I dont think bloat should be too much of a problem in this cycle. If you feel you are bloating to much just ad in some letro @ something like .25mg E3D or EOD. You probably wont even need it especially in the first weeks with havoc. Its just a good idea to have it on hand, (with nolva) in case a problem arises.
 
pistonpump

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again i commend you on your way of going about this cycle. This is how all guys coming into injectables or just AAS in general should approach......research, learn, ask questions, and plan!
 
Prometherion

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Thanks.

I think for the ancillaries I'll get Nolva, Clomid, and Letro. Enough to able to run throughout the cycle, and hope that I don't need any of them until PCT. I think I'll just use my original PCT plan, but have clomid just in case.


I'm really confident about this cycle, and expect it to go quite well. I just hope everything goes well with the transaction.

I'm gonna need to work on my BSing skills to... so when people ask what I'm taking I can come up with something good. :think:
 
tnick7

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Thanks.

I think for the ancillaries I'll get Nolva, Clomid, and Letro. Enough to able to run throughout the cycle, and hope that I don't need any of them until PCT. I think I'll just use my original PCT plan, but have clomid just in case.


I'm really confident about this cycle, and expect it to go quite well. I just hope everything goes well with the transaction.

I'm gonna need to work on my BSing skills to... so when people ask what I'm taking I can come up with something good. :think:

Good luck. Just tell people you're on the muscletech musclebuilding stack :eek: :D
 
crazyfool405

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i feel like letro kills TOO MUCH estrogen, a dex is much easier, itll leave some, and at a dose of .5mg eod would be fine.
 
Prometherion

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Do you think it kills too much even if it's dosed E3D?
 
pistonpump

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i feel like letro kills TOO MUCH estrogen, a dex is much easier, itll leave some, and at a dose of .5mg eod would be fine.
thats why there are doses......lol. you can always lower the dose....everthink of that. I think i was doing 1mg eod to e3d of letro. On another cycle i did 1mg ed of arimidex. Now considering most places sell each of them for the same price but with letro being 2.5mg/ml and you use less than half of a full dose to be just as effective as a full dose of arimidex, then why would you use arimidex lol? I felt that that 1mg eod/e3d was better than 1mg ed of adex. Makes perfect sense to me. Even if that dose was too much you could still do .5mg eod and it be over 5x as cost effective as arimidex.
 
crazyfool405

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thats why there are doses......lol. you can always lower the dose....everthink of that. I think i was doing 1mg eod to e3d of letro. On another cycle i did 1mg ed of arimidex. Now considering most places sell each of them for the same price but with letro being 2.5mg/ml and you use less than half of a full dose to be just as effective as a full dose of arimidex, then why would you use arimidex lol? I felt that that 1mg eod/e3d was better than 1mg ed of adex. Makes perfect sense to me. Even if that dose was too much you could still do .5mg eod and it be over 5x as cost effective as arimidex.
didnt realize they sold them the same price,

i was always under the impression it was 2.5 mg letro to .5 or 1 mg arimidex as far as effectiveness.

so doing .25 mg is very hard to do on a medicine dropper, maybe not an oral syringe.
 
Prometherion

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So the Letro i'm planning on getting is in tablet form. They're in 2.5 mg form, so I'm wondering if I can just split them in half and use 1.25 doses? About the same as 1 mg?
 
pistonpump

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So the Letro i'm planning on getting is in tablet form. They're in 2.5 mg form, so I'm wondering if I can just split them in half and use 1.25 doses? About the same as 1 mg?
thats what i would do.
 
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