After a lot of experience with chemistry this summer....

[nattydisaster]

I spent a lot of time this summer completing one of the hardest classes at my university...organic chemistry two. Now that I have learned so much about reactions, and how chemicals (like prohormones) are derived..I have a completely different outlook on "clones". It is very easy to take a compound...and synthesize it a completely different way than another company. A poor synthesis, can lead to a majority of things. It can lead to there being minor products in your pill that could be counter-productive, or unproductive enantiomers.

All I am saying is...I think there is a reason that NO superdrol clone has come close to the results people got from original superdrol...and all the clones seem to be more toxic.

When it comes to P-plex, LMG, MAX LMG, and those...i would not go for the cheap knockoff clones. There may be a lot of estrogen conversion in your body. Granted...all of the available forms of P-plex are clones...so theres no win there.

But with things like Epistane, I would not ever use a clone. I would use the original, where u know the chemistry was done correct, and you know the company spent a long time testing it before releasing it, opposed from the clones who just look at the final product, try to synthesize is as fast as possible to get it on the market.

Im just saying...when it comes to PH's...you really do get what you pay for. Dont try to save 5 bucks...it could cost u 5 lbs. :thumbsup:

 

[dsade]

But with things like Epistane, I would not ever use a clone. I would use the original, where u know the chemistry was done correct, and you know the company spent a long time testing it before releasing it,

Havoc being the original, I would have to agree with you.:thumbsup:

 

[nattydisaster]

lol...dont even get me started in that topic. In better words...let's just say that the cheap knockoffs from companies who hardly even have a website let alone make any other supplements should be avoided...IMO at least.

All to their own.

 

[nattydisaster]

dsade are you a nutraplanet worker/rep/owner/etc? For some reason i always thought u were...dont know why.

 

[dsade]

dsade are you a nutraplanet worker/rep/owner/etc? For some reason i always thought u were...dont know why.

I did a lot of consultation and formultion work with Nutra, but now I am swamped with RPN.

 

[The_Reverend]

Havoc IS the original. I would never use Epi again, not because of all the controversy, but because of personal experience.

 

[nattydisaster]

this thread took a usual epistane/havoc turn.

 

[pistonpump]

Wow thats a good insight on the current designer market. Has me thinking....

 

[The_Reverend]

this thread took a usual epistane/havoc turn.

and you didn't expect this? :icon_lol:

 

[LilPsychotic]

I spent a lot of time this summer completing one of the hardest classes at my university...organic chemistry two. Now that I have learned so much about reactions, and how chemicals (like prohormones) are derived..I have a completely different outlook on "clones". It is very easy to take a compound...and synthesize it a completely different way than another company. A poor synthesis, can lead to a majority of things. It can lead to there being minor products in your pill that could be counter-productive, or unproductive enantiomers.

All I am saying is...I think there is a reason that NO superdrol clone has come close to the results people got from original superdrol...and all the clones seem to be more toxic.

When it comes to P-plex, LMG, MAX LMG, and those...i would not go for the cheap knockoff clones. There may be a lot of estrogen conversion in your body. Granted...all of the available forms of P-plex are clones...so theres no win there.

But with things like Epistane, I would not ever use a clone. I would use the original, where u know the chemistry was done correct, and you know the company spent a long time testing it before releasing it, opposed from the clones who just look at the final product, try to synthesize is as fast as possible to get it on the market.

Im just saying...when it comes to PH's...you really do get what you pay for. Dont try to save 5 bucks...it could cost u 5 lbs. :thumbsup:

I've given this much thought myself. Not only do you have to take what you've mentioned into account, but if you study any solid state chemistry you will learn that polymorphic forms of crystalline materials can also have major physiological effects on the body once injested. If the chemicals are not crystallized under proper conditions, the drug can take on one of several polymorphic forms that can alter solubility, thus affecting bioavailibility, which is really kind of terrifying if you think about it. I often wonder how and where "clones" are produced, and if all of these possibilities are controlled by competant chemists. I did some undergraduate research this summer on polymorphs and solid state physical chemistry that really got me thinking about putting this sh*t into my body.

 

[AFOX]

I know one thing, M-Drol is the real deal. I never used the original SuperDrol, but I have extensive PS/PH experince, and my recent M-Drol cycle is best cycle I have ever run. Huge dry mass gains, and major strength gains.

 

[nattydisaster]

I've given this much thought myself. Not only do you have to take what you've mentioned into account, but if you study any solid state chemistry you will learn that polymorphic forms of crystalline materials can also have major physiological effects on the body once injested. If the chemicals are not crystallized under proper conditions, the drug can take on one of several polymorphic forms that can alter solubility, thus affecting bioavailibility, which is really kind of terrifying if you think about it. I often wonder how and where "clones" are produced, and if all of these possibilities are controlled by competant chemists. I did some undergraduate research this summer on polymorphs and solid state physical chemistry that really got me thinking about putting this sh*t into my body.

Exactly.

 

[Steveoph]

I wish I was in your orgo class. I aced mine, but all we did was reactions and synthesis, but never got into steroids/hormones Once we went through all the steps in cholesterol synthesis, but we generally avoided the topics that interested me.

 

[Hank Vangut]

what makes you so sure the original products were synthesized correctly?
it's not like the fda is checking them to make sure they are pure.

 

[Highlanda01602]

what makes you so sure the original products were synthesized correctly?
it's not like the fda is checking them to make sure they are pure.

You're right, but I think this serves as just a thought to keep in the back of our minds when browsing for our next cycle. Companies pop up left and right, with their own SD/PP/Halodrol/Epi/etc compound, and its unevitable that quality plays a role in some of these.

 

[nattydisaster]

what makes you so sure the original products were synthesized correctly?
it's not like the fda is checking them to make sure they are pure.

Nobody really knows. My point is more...the company who spends all the time creating the compound and discovering it, is also the one spending the time to find the best major product. Then they relsease it and bam, a bunch of shabby small companies are sythesizing it ASAP.

Im just sayin...we are putting these in our bodies, to serve a purpose of positive outcome...i'll spend the extra 5 bucks to keep from putting something else in my body that could negate something else.

Like i said before, there's a reason that everyone agrees no SD clone has shown the same results as the original SD, and all of them have worse sides. You see people take epi clones who report back with opposite side effects than people who take epistane itself.

You read about people getting gyno from compounds that dont aromatize. I think there's a reason.

 

[Hank Vangut]

interesting. a valid theory.
i guess it would take some actual lab testing to prove though.
and this goes for any and every supplement whether it is a clone or 1st generation product.

 

[nattydisaster]

agreed

 

[Highlanda01602]

For the time being though, I will always prefer to go with the mainstream manufactured clone (or original if available). I was just debating with a friend over this rediculous three-steroid compound that some company came into existance just to sell. They pop up left and right with their own hormones, and quality just has to be an issue with some of these.

Has been a interesting topic though - would also be interested in some lab work (must be expensive though).

 

[pistonpump]

lets leave the word "epistane" out of this before it takes the wrong turn again. Please.

 

[JBerto]

Nobody really knows. My point is more...the company who spends all the time creating the compound and discovering it, is also the one spending the time to find the best major product. Then they relsease it and bam, a bunch of shabby small companies are sythesizing it ASAP.

Im just sayin...we are putting these in our bodies, to serve a purpose of positive outcome...i'll spend the extra 5 bucks to keep from putting something else in my body that could negate something else.

Like i said before, there's a reason that everyone agrees no SD clone has shown the same results as the original SD, and all of them have worse sides. You see people take epi clones who report back with opposite side effects than people who take epistane itself.

You read about people getting gyno from compounds that dont aromatize. I think there's a reason.

+1

Good theory.

 

[nattydisaster]

For the time being though, I will always prefer to go with the mainstream manufactured clone (or original if available). I was just debating with a friend over this rediculous three-steroid compound that some company came into existance just to sell. They pop up left and right with their own hormones, and quality just has to be an issue with some of these.

Has been a interesting topic though - would also be interested in some lab work (must be expensive though).

Same here.

 

[LilPsychotic]

Plus, how many designer steroids undergo clinical trials? Who knows what the long term side effects are. I mean you could group all methylated steroids together as a class, but that is hardly an analytical method for analysis. I hate to say it, but regulatory entities do have some purpose when it comes to public health, ie the FDA. Supposedly the FTC regulates "dietary supplements" but I hardly believe that if they knew what we knew they would let alot of these products stay on the market.

 

[Variocam]

i would assume they use the exact same ingredient (clones versus original), the only issue is how much ingredient versus how much filler.
there really isnt as much research as you think, they just go to some chinese chemical supplier and order a bunch of bulk powder then cap it and sell it with a name like UltraMegaDrol 50mg.

 

[LilPsychotic]

i would assume they use the exact same ingredient (clones versus original), the only issue is how much ingredient versus how much filler.
there really isnt as much research as you think, they just go to some chinese chemical supplier and order a bunch of bulk powder then cap it and sell it with a name like UltraMegaDrol 50mg.

Not quite. Most designers are synthesized from various parent compounds, for example superdrol is synthesized from oxymetholone (anadrol). The raw materials used to make these chemical entities are not the entities themselves.

 

[nattydisaster]

Not quite. Most designers are synthesized from various parent compounds, for example superdrol is synthesized from oxymetholone (anadrol). The raw materials used to make these chemical entities are not the entities themselves.

Exactly, this is what a lot of people dont understand.

 

[nattydisaster]

Plus, how many designer steroids undergo clinical trials? Who knows what the long term side effects are. I mean you could group all methylated steroids together as a class, but that is hardly an analytical method for analysis. I hate to say it, but regulatory entities do have some purpose when it comes to public health, ie the FDA. Supposedly the FTC regulates "dietary supplements" but I hardly believe that if they knew what we knew they would let alot of these products stay on the market.

Just look at the thread about the kid who suffered liver damage with that supplement of 3 methyls in it. I hate to say it as well, but the FDA does have a purpose. You can't assume everyone knows what they are taking, or has done research. We here at AM are just a small percentage of the people taking these prohormones.

 

[RedwolfWV]

Just look at the thread about the kid who suffered liver damage with that supplement of 3 methyls in it. I hate to say it as well, but the FDA does have a purpose. You can't assume everyone knows what they are taking, or has done research. We here at AM are just a small percentage of the people taking these prohormones.

I do see what you are saying here, but I don't quite agree. He could have suffered the same liver damage by taking a doctor prescribed Statin drug. They are hard on the liver, and his just might have been weak or he was more predisposed to having liver problems.

 

[warnerve]

my guess is these companies have very little, if any, role in the synthesizing of these compounds. i have only heard bad things about some epithio clones and superdrol clones, the bloodwork on the newer ones compared to the original makes me think something could be going on

 

[LilPsychotic]

Just look at the thread about the kid who suffered liver damage with that supplement of 3 methyls in it. I hate to say it as well, but the FDA does have a purpose. You can't assume everyone knows what they are taking, or has done research. We here at AM are just a small percentage of the people taking these prohormones.

Right on, as much as I hate big government, some degree of control is nessesary when it comes people taking medication/supplements.

 

[JBerto]

Right on, as much as I hate big government, some degree of control is nessesary when it comes people taking medication/supplements.

Yes, but the problem is that if gov controls it, then... all PH would be banned

 

[LilPsychotic]

Obviously.

 

[dsade]

Yes, but the problem is that if gov controls it, then... all PH would be banned

Not just PHs, anything that competes with BigPharm drugs...which means just about everything.

 

[somewhatgifted]

Well i think i can be said the risk factors are ever present, who cares about 5$ when ingesting relatively unknown untested substances. Since when has the value of health dropped so low that we contemplate 5$ for risk of losing 5lbs. I for one will not be trying any "new" compounds or be lining up begging to "test". The customer needs to be educated like many in here and demand more testing, extensive research and i will be willin got pay top dollar for a gaurantee of sorts (extensive testing) that i wont be harmed and can expect consistent results. Its clear that its risky to venture into hormonal exploits but i feel the thirst for easily attained muscular success has trumped the need for a functional, effective, healthy and long lasting body. I would rather pay double for well researched and tested products that save a couple bucks an roll the dice. We need to use this one body our entire lives and i think some are lost to the fact that there are more inportant things than a quick fix or easy mass when the potential risks are high. Demand drives supplyk, so lets demand quality over affordability. If its too expensive to pay for quality you really dont care much about your body and havent researched enough into what you are really doing to it. Let us not forget the emotional impact of hormone manipulation and the cost to our relationships and values. MAny of us dont rat bag our cars so why do it with our bodies. Would you put the cheap knock off oil in your car?

 

[badfish51581]

Well i think i can be said the risk factors are ever present, who cares about 5$ when ingesting relatively unknown untested substances. Since when has the value of health dropped so low that we contemplate 5$ for risk of losing 5lbs. I for one will not be trying any "new" compounds or be lining up begging to "test". The customer needs to be educated like many in here and demand more testing, extensive research and i will be willin got pay top dollar for a gaurantee of sorts (extensive testing) that i wont be harmed and can expect consistent results. Its clear that its risky to venture into hormonal exploits but i feel the thirst for easily attained muscular success has trumped the need for a functional, effective, healthy and long lasting body. I would rather pay double for well researched and tested products that save a couple bucks an roll the dice. We need to use this one body our entire lives and i think some are lost to the fact that there are more inportant things than a quick fix or easy mass when the potential risks are high. Demand drives supplyk, so lets demand quality over affordability. If its too expensive to pay for quality you really dont care much about your body and havent researched enough into what you are really doing to it. Let us not forget the emotional impact of hormone manipulation and the cost to our relationships and values. MAny of us dont rat bag our cars so why do it with our bodies. Would you put the cheap knock off oil in your car?

Ideally, I would agree with you, but the reality is that there are so many other risks, unknowns, and general uncertainty from supposedly safe things that I only consider the risks marginal and they go with the territory. They recently did a study that founds all kinds of prescription drugs and chemicals in our water supply - something supposedly safe. Don't get me wrong, I try and do my due dilligence and research the compounds myself, but even in and industry like big pharma they can't guarantee the safety of many drugs when millions of dollars go into the research. I doubt the small increase we as consumers could demand are really going to improve the industry in any meaningful way.

The reality is that 99% of supplements are completely worthless usually because they're severly underdosed, use unbioavailble (or less) versions, or are not extracted properly (or at the correct concentration) that they have minimal, if any effect. If they can't get even manage to create products with meaningful dosages, how are we going to demand the much more extensive work go into formulating and creating them. As a consumer, I only buy from reputable companies, but anything more than that I doubt will help. As the say goes..."Let the buyer beware."

 

[somewhatgifted]

Ideally, I would agree with you, but the reality is that there are so many other risks, unknowns, and general uncertainty from supposedly safe things that I only consider the risks marginal and they go with the territory. They recently did a study that founds all kinds of prescription drugs and chemicals in our water supply - something supposedly safe. Don't get me wrong, I try and do my due dilligence and research the compounds myself, but even in and industry like big pharma they can't guarantee the safety of many drugs when millions of dollars go into the research. I doubt the small increase we as consumers could demand are really going to improve the industry in any meaningful way.

The reality is that 99% of supplements are completely worthless usually because they're severly underdosed, use unbioavailble (or less) versions, or are not extracted properly (or at the correct concentration) that they have minimal, if any effect. If they can't get even manage to create products with meaningful dosages, how are we going to demand the much more extensive work go into formulating and creating them. As a consumer, I only buy from reputable companies, but anything more than that I doubt will help. As the say goes..."Let the buyer beware."

My proposal is not a solution of sorts rather a shift of focus to more hard looks in the paperwork than "hey ive got 40$ im going ot take PH's" Reputable companies supply where the demand is and will not change unless the demand changes thats basic buisness. I my self wont take a Ph because lots of people tell me to, or smoke meth because my cell phone will probably give me cancer anyway. the intangibles will always be intangible but what we can change or affect is what the focus is one instead of just taking it as it comes. Everyone grows up and learns from there mistakes the bottom line is always the same, healthy is healthy. Prescription drugs typically fix problems created from lifestyle diet or drugs. Our food isnt as healthy as it once was, our water as you noted, our access to garbage has increased exponentially. Still we get what we ask for, i merely thought we need to be more accoubtable and act now to help facilitate solutions in any and every way possible.

 

[badfish51581]

My proposal is not a solution of sorts rather a shift of focus to more hard looks in the paperwork than "hey ive got 40$ im going ot take PH's" Reputable companies supply where the demand is and will not change unless the demand changes thats basic buisness. I my self wont take a Ph because lots of people tell me to, or smoke meth because my cell phone will probably give me cancer anyway. the intangibles will always be intangible but what we can change or affect is what the focus is one instead of just taking it as it comes. Everyone grows up and learns from there mistakes the bottom line is always the same, healthy is healthy. Prescription drugs typically fix problems created from lifestyle diet or drugs. Our food isnt as healthy as it once was, our water as you noted, our access to garbage has increased exponentially. Still we get what we ask for, i merely thought we need to be more accoubtable and act now to help facilitate solutions in any and every way possible.

Well said.

 

[nattydisaster]

My proposal is not a solution of sorts rather a shift of focus to more hard looks in the paperwork than "hey ive got 40$ im going ot take PH's" Reputable companies supply where the demand is and will not change unless the demand changes thats basic buisness. I my self wont take a Ph because lots of people tell me to, or smoke meth because my cell phone will probably give me cancer anyway. the intangibles will always be intangible but what we can change or affect is what the focus is one instead of just taking it as it comes. Everyone grows up and learns from there mistakes the bottom line is always the same, healthy is healthy. Prescription drugs typically fix problems created from lifestyle diet or drugs. Our food isnt as healthy as it once was, our water as you noted, our access to garbage has increased exponentially. Still we get what we ask for, i merely thought we need to be more accoubtable and act now to help facilitate solutions in any and every way possible.

Very well said