running PS/PH more than twice?
- 08-09-2008, 09:57 AM
running PS/PH more than twice?
Alright ladies and gents... This question popped up on another thread and I think it warrants further discussion. Some say running the same compound more than twice(for the most part) is not worth it and that you should switch over to another(PH/PS). Some good points have been made for both sides, but I would like to hear from more people. So feel free to comment as you wish. There is no bad information... RIGHT! Maybe there is? I will give my 2 cents after hearing some feedback
Last edited by partyman43; 08-09-2008 at 10:36 PM.
- 08-09-2008, 09:08 PM
For me, second time around was less for everything except DHEA. I think a person builds a type of tolerance wherein you get more sides than gains.
08-09-2008, 09:38 PM
Well the time between the PH cycles makes a big difference. Iknow people that just waited 10 weeeks or so after pct and did not get good results the second time around. Others that wait 8-12 months have alot better results.
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08-09-2008, 09:38 PM
Fascinating topic - I'd love to hear from more folks on this.
I, unfortunately, have little to offer beyond general speculation: the body tends to produce the most intense and profound reactions to rare and novel stimuli, and all subsequent introductions of those stimuli are mediated by that initial response - that is, the body responds differently on the subsequent occasions from the initial reaction, but *not the same as* that initial reaction. Unfortunately, it would require real research (as in, funded research) to accumulate the data needed to simply figure out what questions to ask, much less analyze it all.
So, it doesn't surprise me if one's second experience with a compound is different, even substantially, from the first.
Important to distinguish, I think, between "psychic" results and physiological results. Most logs, it's all about sensations; perfectly natural, and a worthwhile source of data, but that's WHY we get strict about diet, and track sets, reps, poundage & lifts: the bottom line is not 'did I feel the same or better?' but 'at the end of the cycle, did I gain or cut according to my plan? Do I have results consistent with my previous run, or not?'
So yeah, chiming in w/ partyman I'd like to from guys who did X twice or more and hear about how the different experiences went - and also seeing how the actual results of successive runs stack up.
Last edited by BodyWizard; 08-09-2008 at 10:44 PM.
08-09-2008, 11:46 PM
I've run 3 Epi cycles and the gains from the second and third did not even come close to the first. 1st cycle: +14 lbm. 2nd: +7 lbm 3rd: 5-6 lbm. Needless to say I'm not going to be running a fourth. These cycles were at least 6-8 months apart and I was nowhere near my potential going into the last two. I def didn't feel the same drive, pump and mental boost that came along with the first cycle. Hope that helps.
08-10-2008, 12:10 AM
Has anyone ran L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate or Propionyl-L-Carnitine to offset the supposed tolerance by increasing androgen receptor sensitivity?
08-10-2008, 08:09 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone
The amount of time between cycles and the strength of your PCT has to factor into the result that you will get from later cycles. I am, by no means an expert, but those 2 factors have to play a big part in overall results of a cycle...right.
Hey Knowbull and h22t88...can you elaborate on your cycles and PCT for us a little(length of time, support supps.,diet and amount of training). It may help to give a better idea of overall performance.
Here is another curve to throw out there... I am finishing up a Havoc pulse cycle(6 wks) with 4 weeks PCT. I ran the 6 wks at:
I am in my 3rd week of PCT. I would like to run a straight cycle of Havoc in about 6 months or so. Does all this apply to people in my same situation? Is it still true for a pulse cycle followed by a straight cycle?
A slight increase or varience in dosage has to play a part in each cycle also. If you run a straight cycle at, lets say:
Than you can look to increase the next to:
Or something like that. An RPN rep would be better to answer those type questions more accurately. I haven't tried a straight cycle yet so my reasearch isn't up to par yet.
I think that the general feeling is(and I agree to a point) that some compounds work better for you than others. You might run a cycle of Epistane(and get good results) one time and then switch over to something else, but it doesn't give nearly as good a result as Epi.
Just my 2 cents fellas, hope it helps
08-10-2008, 05:06 PM
27 years old. 6'1" 200 lb.
My first cycle was 5 weeks at 20,30,40,40,40. 3500+ kcals (somewhat dirty) a day. 250-300g protein. Tons of complex and simple carbs (post workout). 3 day split workout. Support supps: 1500mg Milk Thistle and NAC. Creatine was not used during cycle. PCT consisted of Topical ATD 100mg, 100mg, 75mg, 50mg, 25mg. Liver support, ZMA continued through PCT and creatine added back into the mix. I continued to gain on PCT. Did not have any signs of shutdown at end of cycle. Zero Estro rebound and gyno after PCT. Added mass was maintained for the most part until next cycle with maybe a few lbs. of mass lost.
Next 2 cycles were the same exept I ran 40-50mg ED all the way through (4 weeks)
I've never done a pulse so I don't really have much input there. I think from my experience and from reading others it's def a good idea to switch up the PS unless you're taking like a year or more off between cycles.
08-10-2008, 05:30 PM
I am curious on this topic.
There are ALOT of variables, I mean ALOT to consider. Eating(diet), sleeping, work, sex and plain normal habits, not counting pct variances,supplemental variances, training variances, and mental variances. That is a small list of data to consider from cycle to cycle.
All multi-cycles in question need to being exactly the same. Who can honestly say they have a "control group" so to speak, on this topic?
I must say, common sense indicates, one would build a "tolerance". Most reviews I have read indicate second cycle never as good as the first, unless the first cycle was executed improperly.
Latching onto this thread.
08-11-2008, 02:21 PM
A good strong PCT is just as important as the cycle itself. We all know(or should) that proper PCT length as well as proper support supps. play a vital role in a good,strong cycle; but,in my opinion, much more crucial in the first cycle.
Now having said that... lets get into serm usage. My opinion is that serm usage can strongly effect later cycles. I know I am going out on a limb here, but bear with me.
A serm is used basically to eliminate estrogen rebound.... correct. I think that some people could be overdoing serm usage because they are over dosing there PS/PH compounds. All this is based on first cycles. Sometimes more is not necessarily better. BY NO MEANS AM I SAYING NOT TO USE A SERM, but i think that there can be overkill to a point where it can effect later cycles.
Again, just my 2 cents. And yes I could be way off here. I have been know to be off a time or 2
Thanks for the response back h22t88
Can any one give me feedback on a pulse cycle followed by a straight cycle?
08-11-2008, 02:56 PM
While tolerance comes into it, you'll always gain less on subsequent cycles because gains taper off the closer you get to your limits.
Basically I think people should take plenty of time between cycles, and don't run the same compound twice in a row. Rotate through a few
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08-11-2008, 04:49 PM
08-11-2008, 11:16 PM
I know there is a lot of lore to this issue, but I can't see any biological basis for there being less of an effect the second or third time around. Your receptors (AR, ER, GR) don't change (i.e. your genes don't change, so neither do the proteins they encode). Other things that might change some, but would likely affect your responses to any and all subsequent compounds. Some of these might be:
--Receptor expression levels
*if I remember it right, androgens upregulate AR levels, at least on cycle. I don't know how long this lasts after PCT or whether you reset to pre-cycle levels, though.
--Metabolic enzyme levels
*By this I mean 17b-HSD, 3a/b-HSD, aromatase, 5a-reductase...changes in levels of these enzymes will affect how fast the steroid is metabolized (esp. with prohormones/prosteroids).
And there isn't likely to be "tolerance" to repeated exposures unless there is some sort of immune response to the steroid (such that your body responds and clears it faster in subsequent exposures). This has never been documented to my knowledge.
08-11-2008, 11:31 PM
i think that its possible for a compound to loose effectiveness over multipule uses, but with that being said. i think its more likely that if you ran a cycle with compound X and gained 15lbs in Y amount of time, no matter what compound you choose to run it prob wont put 15 more lbs on you in that same time frame....ive ran 3 epi cycles with the first being good 10-12 lbs the second being the best 15-18 lbs and the third not as much 8-10....i think this has more to do with my weight/condition previous to starting the cycle.
08-12-2008, 06:54 AM
08-14-2008, 06:06 AM
3rd epi here and i couldn't help but add 8+lbs this time around. but i dont fyck around and i "bring it" in the gym. booya biotch
08-14-2008, 03:03 PM
08-17-2008, 06:55 AM
I have another bottle of Havoc that I will use next summer. I think that will give me plenty of time between Havoc cycles. In the meantime I will be running different compounds(P-Plex and H-drol). I've started to read up on theses and they look enticing.
As i said before, my Havoc cycle was only a pulse. I wanted to run a straight cycle, but I felt it better to guage the side effects by running a pulse.
Its a shame the thread didn't have more continuous feedback. This stuff is as important as talking about compounds themselves. I would like to hear more about other compounds like superdrol or phera also. What about Jungle Warfare? Any one tried that cycle consecutively
08-17-2008, 01:22 PM
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