OTC PCT vs. SERM

[JDStarek]

Hello all,
I’m new in town and am posing a question that may (I hope) cause some serious debate.
I’m not a chemist—so please limit the “3-sentence-long atomic structure” type answers.

My question/conjecture is simple, and it is this:

When taking a modern PH (i.e. legal), such as Epistane, Superdrol NG, 3-AD, is a modern OTC PCT sufficient; eliminating the need for a SERM?

After reading through the logs, it seems that “old school” lifters say “Hell No,” while the more, um, “academic” lifters tend to say yes.

Being an academic (code for little guy) I feel that today’s advances in chemistry have not only allowed for a much safer, multi-dimensional PH, they have also generated more effective OTC PCTs.

True, today’s PH is not going to layer on the muscle the way the old stuff used to, but they now include the very ingredients that used to be required in a PCT. Plus, like I said, they aren’t nearly as harsh. Some even say the new PHs are becoming all-in-one supplements--eliminating the need for a PCT altogether. I question this idea, but understand the logic.

So, gentlemen, what’s it gonna be? Will an OTC PCT cut it?

GO!:duel:

 

[tnick7]

Hello all,
I’m new in town and am posing a question that may (I hope) cause some serious debate.
I’m not a chemist—so please limit the “3-sentence-long atomic structure” type answers.

My question/conjecture is simple, and it is this:

When taking a modern PH (i.e. legal), such as Epistane, Superdrol NG, 3-AD, is a modern OTC PCT sufficient; eliminating the need for a SERM?

Firstly Epistane and 3-ad are actually steroids not PH's, just FYI. They are referd to as DS's (designer steroids). Anyway for those mentioned an OTC PCT will probably suffice, but IMO never for something like Superdrol.

After reading through the logs, it seems that “old school” lifters say “Hell No,” while the more, um, “academic” lifters tend to say yes.

Being an academic (code for little guy) I feel that today’s advances in chemistry have not only allowed for a much safer, multi-dimensional PH, they have also generated more effective OTC PCTs.

You have this wrong. Todays PH's are not "much safer"

True, today’s PH is not going to layer on the muscle the way the old stuff used to,

You are misinformed. They may not compare to injection cycles, but there is stuff out there that is extremely potent and good at "laying on muscle"

but they now include the very ingredients that used to be required in a PCT.

Again you have this confused. What ingredients are you refering to?

Plus, like I said, they aren’t nearly as harsh.

Yes they are. In fact some would argue more harsh

Some even say the new PHs are becoming all-in-one supplements--eliminating the need for a PCT altogether. I question this idea, but understand the logic.

Who says this? Its something I have never heard, with the exception of a low dosed 11-oxo, but even then its recommended.

So, gentlemen, what’s it gonna be? Will an OTC PCT cut it?

GO!:duel:

Again depends on compound and also personal preference

 

[rabican]

haha

 

[JDStarek]

Firstly Epistane and 3-ad are actually steroids not PH's, just FYI. They are referd to as DS's (designer steroids). Anyway for those mentioned an OTC PCT will probably suffice, but IMO never for something like Superdrol.



You have this wrong. Todays PH's are not "much safer"



You are misinformed. They may not compare to injection cycles, but there is stuff out there that is extremely potent and good at "laying on muscle"



Again you have this confused. What ingredients are you refering to?



Yes they are. In fact some would argue more harsh



Who says this? Its something I have never heard, with the exception of a low dosed 11-oxo, but even then its recommended.



Again depends on compound and also personal preference

Well, I thank you for your input. Like I said, I’m not familiar with the intricacies of anabolic compounds and such. I’m just going off of stuff I’ve read—wait for it--GENERALLY SPEAKING.
So no, I won’t be quoting pages of chemical compounds, or blogs from 3 months ago.

Your first sentence was enough to answer the question, but I appreciate you breaking down everything I wrote--and making a point to disagree with all of it.

So, to clarify your assertions:
Today’s PHs are more harsh, less safe, have made no scientific advances and don’t contain estrogen reducers of any kind or AIs. BUT, will put on more “layers of muscle” than the crude substances of the 80’s.
Thanks

As for the all-in-one.
Find three products that were closely associated with each other 10 years ago, and I’ll find you ONE product today that contains all three. It is the goal--it always is. (i.e. my creatine has glutamine and BCAAs in it)

These boards are where I got the great majority of my “misinformation.”

Anyway, I just want to know if I can use an OTC PCT after a 4-week SDNG cycle.
If anyone feels like actually commenting on past experience or providing some input I would appreciate it.

If you feel the need to tell me I’m misinformed—provide the correct information.
I’m gathering data, not debating. Those who feel like offering usable input feel free. Those who feel like name calling each other, cutting others down or measuring dicks—can eat mine!

 

[holyintellect]

These boards are where I got the great majority of my “misinformation.

I absolutely agree with this..I see more insane advice given freely like its the gospel than I ever would have imagined (on the boards in general, not singling out any board)...To specifically answer your question, yes I think you can use something like 6 oxo effectively as PCT..I have done so in the past and was pleased. There are others that I think will work well also, but I personally have only used 6 oxo....

Generally speaking, I see more overkill on PCT than anything else...Ive seen guys run a single PH, and then list 7 compounds for his support...

holy

 

[JOHNJESSICA20]

The best advice I can give you, and yes this is only my opinion I'm not a doctor, If your gonna use one of the more powerful ph's I personally would run a serm. The effectivness, cheaps cost and availability makes it a easy choice. Why chance it. Now for the less strong ph's a 4week tapered down dosage of 6oxo or a comparable other would surfice. It seems all the answers to pct out there is split down middle, your best bet is to reseach the compounds and make a informed decision. Sometimes its alot of trial and error to find out what works for you..GOOD LUCK.

 

[slow-mun]

Anyway, I just want to know if I can use an OTC PCT after a 4-week SDNG cycle.
If anyone feels like actually commenting on past experience or providing some input I would appreciate it.

You'll be fine with an OTC PCT. I think people just jumped to conclusions without actually reading your post.

Superdrol NG Supplement Facts:
Anabolic Driver Pro-Hormone
Prasterone (Delta-5-androsten-3b-ol-one) – 170mg
Injection Matrix:
MX-C (Methyl Xanthine) - 150mg
Aprodine HCL – 3.0mg
Estrogen Eliminator:
ATD (6-Etioallochol-1,4-diene-3,17-dione) – 7.5mg
Metabolic HPTA Support Complex:
Gokshura Extract (45% Steroidal Saponins: Tribol, Furostanol, and Protodioscin) -150mg
Trigonella Isolates (50% 25a-Spirosta-3,5-diene, 20% 4-Hydroxyisoleucine) - 100mg

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

Read this bro. And Superdrol NG is not a steriod.

http://www.otcpct.com

 

[crazyfool405]

Delta-5-androsten-3b-ol-one

i think may cause shut down at high doses ( it is DHEA) so a reall high dose may be mildly suppressive.

 

[crazyfool405]

25a-Spirosta-3,5-diene

along with this binding to the androgen receptor and having androgenic activity

 

[crazyfool405]

isnt there a write up of superdrol ng that has 5AD??

that also causes shut down.

 

[Valens]

IMO the stuff available today OTC will only put layers on muscle on a person if that person is using for a given item(s) for the first time........or taking much higher than normal doses

the stuff before the 2004 ban was WAYYYYYYYYY more capable of adding the layers of muscle..........I know this because I was able to use some of it.........

P

 

[tnick7]

Well, I thank you for your input. Like I said, I’m not familiar with the intricacies of anabolic compounds and such. I’m just going off of stuff I’ve read—wait for it--GENERALLY SPEAKING.
So no, I won’t be quoting pages of chemical compounds, or blogs from 3 months ago.

Your first sentence was enough to answer the question, but I appreciate you breaking down everything I wrote--and making a point to disagree with all of it.

So, to clarify your assertions:
Today’s PHs are more harsh, less safe, have made no scientific advances and don’t contain estrogen reducers of any kind or AIs. BUT, will put on more “layers of muscle” than the crude substances of the 80’s.
Thanks

As for the all-in-one.
Find three products that were closely associated with each other 10 years ago, and I’ll find you ONE product today that contains all three. It is the goal--it always is. (i.e. my creatine has glutamine and BCAAs in it)

These boards are where I got the great majority of my “misinformation.”

Anyway, I just want to know if I can use an OTC PCT after a 4-week SDNG cycle.
If anyone feels like actually commenting on past experience or providing some input I would appreciate it.

If you feel the need to tell me I’m misinformed—provide the correct information.
I’m gathering data, not debating. Those who feel like offering usable input feel free. Those who feel like name calling each other, cutting others down or measuring dicks—can eat mine!

Woah, relax there. I took the time to answer your questions. Just because I stated you had some thing muddled up you dont need to take offense!

I wasn't trying to disagree with all of it. If I just said you got that muddled up, you only would have said what part.

With SDNG you will be fine with a very simple OTC PCT.

And you are correct there is a lot of misinformation on these boards, and I dont blame you for getting things confused, just some stuff in the OP I hadn't seen before!

 

[Rugger]

Will an OTC PCT cut it?

Nope, sorry.

Some even say the new PHs are becoming all-in-one supplements--eliminating the need for a PCT altogether.

Lol, who says that? Clowns over at BB dot com?

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

Nope, sorry.



Lol, who says that? Clowns over at BB dot com?

I agree that is crazy:thumbsup:

 

[JDStarek]

People seem to get hung–up easily on small things and be very literal on these boards.

Not a bad thing, it just makes it somewhat difficult to have conversation.

The all-in-one thing people seem pretty wrapped-up on;
Guys, today’s products contain multiple compounds. They do this in order to not only increase particular enzymes and compounds in the body, but decrease others. So, today you can basically get in one bottle what you might have to buy separately a few years ago. Eventually companies will produce products that will claim to be “all you need”

Some current products that incorporate multiple compounds, in order to consolidate, are 3-AD and SDNG. Yes, they still require a PCT, pretty much all PHs do. But one day they won’t

Read the bottle if you disagree. One day in the near future we will see ads for these miracle products that are self regulating (i.e. no PCT needed)

I’m not saying that I saw an ad for one—I’m just suggesting that it’s where we’re headed.

We are certainly closer to it now than we were five years ago.

I’m trying to cultivate a conversation here, but everyone seems to be responding only to what I personally write. I just posed the question for debate; I’m not part of the debate.

So, in summery:
The majority say that an OTC PCT will do the trick,
But some say that it won’t.

I appreciate the input guys. If you say no, why not?

I would like to hear from someone that has done a cycle with and without a PCT

 

[edwards]

epistane and clones are roids and can add "layers" of muscle. serm is recommended. it should not be compared to superdrol-NG.

 

[JDStarek]

epistane and clones are roids and can add "layers" of muscle. serm is recommended. it should not be compared to superdrol-NG.

So, does this mean that for SDNG no SERM is needed?

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

So, does this mean that for SDNG no SERM is needed?

SDNG is not a steriod does not need a pct the others are Designer oral steriods that require a steriod. If you want to hear from a person that has done a steriod cycle without a pct you want to hear someone with bad advice a pct should always be done on a steriod cycle.:thumbsup:

 

[holyintellect]

I would like to hear from someone that has done a cycle with and without a PCT

I am literally ONLY speaking of steroids here, not PHs....I do contest prep for men and women...I can honestly say that over the years I have literally seen probably 200 cylces done....Probably only half of those were followed by a PCT. If you ask most guys who arent board junkies, they are going to have no idea about PCT..its kind of an internet phenomenon in the fact that a guy can post his cycle and it be the most insane, rediculous thing I have ever seen, yet no one will say anything about that but point out that he left milk thistle out of his ancillaries...WTF? Im not downplaying the importance of ancillaries and PCT, but again, I think guys have overcomplicated the process....

holy

 

[JDStarek]

I am literally ONLY speaking of steroids here, not PHs....I do contest prep for men and women...I can honestly say that over the years I have literally seen probably 200 cylces done....Probably only half of those were followed by a PCT. If you ask most guys who arent board junkies, they are going to have no idea about PCT..its kind of an internet phenomenon in the fact that a guy can post his cycle and it be the most insane, rediculous thing I have ever seen, yet no one will say anything about that but point out that he left milk thistle out of his ancillaries...WTF? Im not downplaying the importance of ancillaries and PCT, but again, I think guys have overcomplicated the process....

holy

Again, I’ve said that this is all new to me. But I have to commend you on your common sense, sir. I’m thinking—what did everyone do before “PCT?”

We (humans) keep finding ways to overcomplicate healthy diets, practical exercise plans and every other damn thing.

God forbid you should forget your L-Glutamine after your workout; you might shrivel up and die or something.

I think it’s gotten out of hand, but, non-the-less, I’m a little dude trying to find the most efficient and effective way to become a guy that used to be a little dude.

So, if it means spending the tax payer dollars (my paycheck) on Clomid or Torem…so be it.

Good lookin', Holy

JD

 

[holyintellect]

Again, I’ve said that this is all new to me. But I have to commend you on your common sense, sir. I’m thinking—what did everyone do before “PCT?”

We (humans) keep finding ways to overcomplicate healthy diets, practical exercise plans and every other damn thing.

God forbid you should forget your L-Glutamine after your workout; you might shrivel up and die or something.

I think it’s gotten out of hand, but, non-the-less, I’m a little dude trying to find the most efficient and effective way to become and guy that used to be a little dude.

So, if it means spending the tax payer dollars (my paycheck) on Clomid or Torem…so be it.

Good lookin', Holy

JD

I try to be somewhat diplomatic in things I post because invariably you'll step on someones toes, and PCT happens to be a lot of peoples "pet peeve"....but since you've obviously caught my drift, I'll further what I posted and go on and say that beyond these boards for guys higher up the food chain in this sport, PCT is an afterthought...

holy