Brady Could be the greatest ever
- 01-20-2008, 07:59 PM
- 01-21-2008, 12:13 AM
- 01-21-2008, 01:58 PM
You realize that you're stating he is the best quarterback ever, right off a 3 interception game in which he single handedly kept San Diego in that game? I think he's a pretty damn good quarterback, but people need to jump off this Golden Boy bandwagon and take a step back. Look at the weapons and defense he has surrounding him. That team is so GOOD that he can throw 3 interceptions and they still win.
Is he a great quarterback? Of course.
Has he been surrounded by almost unprecedented talent this year? You better believe it.
Let's give it another couple of years before we crown him king. Because if you recall, when he wasn't surrounded by excellent teams he failed to make the Super Bowl.
01-21-2008, 02:18 PM
I don't know how there is space for you AND Trauma1 in Brady's jock strap.
Just jokes Trauma, you know I love ya.
01-21-2008, 02:55 PM
What the patriots have achieved in general since 2001 is remarkable to say the least. I think 4 superbowl apperances in 7 years says it all in fact. People can say what they will about brady......The guy produces on many different levels in the game to continually help his team win. It shows in his overall talent, leadership, motivation, charisma, attention to detail, and focus on a solid team work foundation. It's that unique quality about him in my mind that defines his greatness.
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
01-21-2008, 02:57 PM
01-21-2008, 03:02 PM
He's defintely the best of his era. IMO, the best ever would be Joe Montana. Brady's career isn't over yet so it's hard to say he's the best ever at this point. Montana has done things Brady hasn't done YET, Brady might be it whe it's all said and done but it's premature right now.
The NFL was more competitve in Montana's ear then in today's watered down NFL. Montana and the 49ers had to beat GREAT teams. He beat the famed Bears defense in championship games twice ('84 & '88). He beat the Doomsday Cowboys when they were the hottest thing in the NFL ('81). He outdueled Marino and the 14-2 Dolphins 38-16. He dismantled the top ranked Broncos defense 55-10 in '89. John Elway could not rescue the Broncos from this one LOL.
Montana had to deal with great teams since there was no salary cap or free agency until 1990 IIRC. He also had to get through Joe Gibbs' Redskins squad, that insanely talented Eagles defense, the LT Giants, da Bears, the rising Rams which were supposed to overtake the 49ers in the mid to late 80's. All these squads would have been AFC Super Bowl representative at one time if they were lucky enough to have been in that conference. That's another reason why Elway's Broncos and later on the Bills got the Super Bowl that many times. It was because they had weak competition.
His '88 49ers squad was 10-6, and seen as declining franchise who would be overmatched by the hungry, phyiscally superior, and rising Bengals but he led the 49ers on a true com from behind win in the last minute going 92 yards
Joe Montana kept Steve Young on the bench until he suffered a major elbow injury in 1990. People had been calling for Young to take over in 1988 because he was the younger and more athletically gifted of the two.
Joe Montana almost took the Chiefs to the Super Bowl in his late 30's with an aged Marcus Allen as his main offensive weapon. I think this truly shows how great he was since he had an average squad that was know for never getting past the wild-card round.
Joe Montana won 2 Super Bowls w/out Jerry Rice. His 1981 squad's leading rusher had 543 yards and a team high 3.6 yards per carry. He also won a Super Bowl without a 1,000 yard receiver in 1984. Dwight Clark was on the decline and there was no Jerry Rice at the time.
I think I could work for NFL films or edge NFL match-up
In reality, it's unfair to compare players from different eras. The game keeps evolving and the players have to adapt to their situation(s). Brady has to deal with more drastic roster changes on his team and other teams while Montana had to deal with some tougher opponents that got the lion's share of success in the 80's.
01-21-2008, 03:05 PM
01-21-2008, 03:19 PM
Most successful, possibly but best ever? I don't know about that. I would say that Terry Bradshaw would have a say in this discussion.
01-21-2008, 03:27 PM
People who say Montana was lucky to have Jerry Rice just don't realize that Rice spent more time with Steve Young then Joe Montana. I like Young but if that was the case the Young would have won more then 1 Super Bowl. I also think Young is better then Elway and Montana was good enough to keep him on the bench for years.
01-21-2008, 03:28 PM
01-21-2008, 03:33 PM
When Peyton set the record (which Brady broke) he was inarguably (so pundits would say) the most gifted, and statistically endowed QB of his generation; a veritable 'student-of-the-game' who could single-handedly disseminate a secondary pre-snap. Now, a few years later, Brady has all but unseated him as the 'fantasy-league king' with his play.
I suppose my point is that hindsight is 20/20, and with the average career of the NFL'er being so short, coupled with the parody created by the salary-cap era, it is easy to get excited before true patterns emerge. Brady has led his team to 'the Bowl' with clutch performances in the playoffs, but until this point was not seen as the Marino-Peyton type of statistical QB. If the game-winning performances of the Pats in recent years are what primarily characterize Brady as a great QB, then some of that misplaced acclaim should fall on A-Vin.
I think Iron's post also demonstrated, maybe, the difference between a good QB on great teams, and the greatest QB on good teams. I think this goes double for Bellichek.
01-21-2008, 03:40 PM
01-21-2008, 03:43 PM
01-21-2008, 03:56 PM
Vinny Testaverde and Boomer Esiason are good examples. They were solid players but they have stats that are more impressive the Aikman, Montana, Bradshaw, and Brady but when they needed to win a big game they caved under pressure. That's why I'll respect a guy like Bradshaw or Aikman who I keep hearing are over-rated by many idiots.
Marino was amazing but some of his stats were due to the fact that he had no running game or reliable defense for a great part of his career. The man had to throw a ton to keep his team competitive but he simply could not elevate his team to the next level. Please don't assume I'm saying he's over-rated, I'm just saying his passing stats would not be the same if he played on a successful team.
01-21-2008, 04:01 PM
This is why I love Hockey - consistency. Guys grind in the NHL for 20+ years and cement their legacy.
01-21-2008, 09:27 PM
01-21-2008, 10:15 PM
I don't know that he sucks, he is undeniably great and debatably the best in the league the past few years, but the great-EST? Gimme a break. He needs to show some individual "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT?!?!?" sort of plays before he will ever be in the same league as Elway, Favre and Montana. Those guys have done that every single week of their careers, all I have seen from Brady this year is shuffling around in the pocket for 8 seconds then casually dumping the ball to one of his weapons.
01-21-2008, 11:11 PM
If Brady wins this one, he's tied with Montana for best all-time IMO.
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01-22-2008, 10:07 AM
Everyone does realize that Brady through 50 touchdowns and only 8 interceptions this year right? Pointing out that he threw 3 INTs in the Chargers game does not even matter, the Pats still finish the game and not once does a football fan even think that Brady is going to melt under pressure. The man has 3 super bowl rings. He does not crack under pressure or self destruct (see Brett Favre and is pension for throwing like 8 INTs in a game once in a while.) He does not care about stats, he cares about wins. He is consistently great, does not complain, does not make excuses, and he adapts to whatever the defense throws at him. Hell, he made WES WELKER the #1 receiver in the NFL this year. He can go entire games without even having to look Moss' way. He did all this for an entire season while having virtually no running game (Maroney's 1st TD of the year came in week 11). As far as I am concerned Montana and Brady are tied for that top spot.
01-22-2008, 12:18 PM
And the fact he threw 3INTs proves the above point, that being the team and not necessarily the man are arguably the best ever (pending next weekend's victory of course). They can win with Moss making one reception and Brady throwing 3INTs. Rex Grossman could have had a stellar Offensive year on this team.
01-22-2008, 12:38 PM
01-22-2008, 12:48 PM
01-22-2008, 01:18 PM
01-22-2008, 01:59 PM
01-22-2008, 04:39 PM
Great discussion,Brady is the fastest to 100 wins he did it in 20 less games than Montana.
Highest single-game quarterback rating: 158.3 (at Miami, October 21, 2007)
Highest single-season quarterback rating: 117.2 (2007)
Highest total passing touchdowns in a game: 6 (at Miami, October 21, 2007)
Highest total passing touchdowns in a regular season: 50 (2007)
Lowest interception total, season (minimum 2 starts): 8 (2007)
Largest touchdown to interception difference: +42 (2007)
21-game win streak statistics (including post-season)
690 passes attempted
412 passes completed
4,953 passing yards
34 passing touchdowns
13 passes intercepted
20.29 passing attempts per touchdown
53.07 passing attempts per interception
59.71 completion rate
90.3 passer rating
Career (as of January 20, 2008)
86-24 (regular season), 100-26 (career) as a starter
18.87 passing attempts per touchdown (career)
42.74 passing attempts per interception (career)
7-0 (career) in overtime games
30-5 (career) in games decided by 3 points or fewer
11-1 (career) in dome stadiums
38-2 (career) on artificial surfaces
27-4 (career) vs NFC teams
84-1 (regular season) when the Patriots have a lead at any time in the fourth quarter
28 game-winning drives after a Patriots' fourth-quarter tie or deficit
Post-season records and statistics
NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10 (broke record of Green Bay's Bart Starr).
Most consecutive post season wins (college and professional combined): 12
3 Super Bowl victories
2 Super Bowl MVP awards
Most completions in a Super Bowl (32 in Super Bowl XXXVIII)
Highest completion percentage in a single game, minimum 20 attempts (26 of 28, 92.9%, against Jacksonville in 2007 AFC Divisional round)[33
01-22-2008, 05:01 PM
Couple of things, brady won 3 other superbowl with basically no star wrs. Anybody tell me how Brown,branch, and givens are fairing with the rest of their NFL careers. 2nd 2 of those superbowl were basically without a consistent rb.
The patriots without moss dont go undefeated
The patriots without brady dont win 10 games
The patriot without their current offensive line wouldnt be a
.500 ball club.
and no you cant just play musical qbs and plug any qb in to that offense and say they are just as succesful, brady fits that team to a tee. people forget brady wasnt drafted to be a starter the guy won the job and kept it from what some say was a probowl qb.
01-22-2008, 05:15 PM
01-22-2008, 05:20 PM
01-22-2008, 05:27 PM
No, it wasn't. You stated that without Brady that team does not achieve 10 wins, implying another QB could not assist them to win 10 games. I said I disagree.
01-22-2008, 05:32 PM
01-23-2008, 12:00 PM
it is still too early in his career to be the "greatest"
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01-23-2008, 12:57 PM
01-23-2008, 01:16 PM
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
01-23-2008, 01:18 PM
Oh no, he definitely pioneered those wins, and was a very large aspect of them; I was only disagreeing with the 10 win comment, and the 'Are you sure?' was directed at rugger saying he did not imply that.
01-23-2008, 02:19 PM
Brady not put up Play Station stats, 50TD's to 8 INT's. That's 6.25 TD's per INT, an unheard of ratio.
A few mentioned that Brady hasn't had any stellar moments like Montana, Elway, or Favre. What about the Super Bowl upset against the Rams ? What about the come from behind win agaisnt the Raiders in the tuck rule game ? He still had to make many plays to bring the Pats back against the Raiders.
Brady did throw 3INT's vs. San Diego but that's an hiccup, he's too damn good to the same thing again.
Someone mentioned that the Pats wouldn't be a 10 game winner w/out him. Let's be realistic though, take away Manning out of the Colts, Romo out of the Cowboys, Roethlisberger out of the Steelers and suddenly you have an average squad because this is the most crucial position in the NFL, that's why they make tons of ca$h.
One thing I would like to see is Brady leading another team to a Super Bowl win or strong Super Bowl run at the end of his career. I think this is what shows Montana's true greatness since he led the Chiefs to the AFC title game. His main offensive threat was an old Marcus Allen. He did this after he had suffered what was considered 2 career ending injuries, one in 1986 and the other in 1990, both against the freaking Giants !
01-23-2008, 02:22 PM
01-23-2008, 02:39 PM
01-23-2008, 03:07 PM
Let's spread some of the credit to his O-line. Those guys give him just ridiculous amounts of time in the pocket. Any NFL QB would be good with that much time.
01-23-2008, 04:07 PM
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