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Brady Could be the greatest ever

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    Let's spread some of the credit to his O-line. Those guys give him just ridiculous amounts of time in the pocket. Any NFL QB would be good with that much time.
    True, but he's very decisive and has great footwork in the pocket. Those little things can be the difference between getting sacked or completing a clutch 3rd & long pass

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    Every great QB had a great O line. Its ALL relative. In fact, if I look at the Colts line (when Manning broke the record) and Montana's great years, I think they had MORE offensive talent then New England has now.
    The 1989 49ers squad was loaded ! The difference was that Roger Craig and Tom Rathman were lethal receiving threats out of the backfield. Faulk is good but Craig led the 49ers receiving during the Jerry Rice era. Craig also had 1,000+ yards receiving and 1,500+ rushing in one season, not bad for a guy who was started his career as a fullback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    Every great QB had a great O line. Its ALL relative. In fact, if I look at the Colts line (when Manning broke the record) and Montana's great years, I think they had MORE offensive talent then New England has now.
    You make a valid point, but I'm not sure you can say Manning's/Montana's lines were better than Brady's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Warrior View Post
    True, but he's very decisive and has great footwork in the pocket. Those little things can be the difference between getting sacked or completing a clutch 3rd & long pass
    He's very calculated and cool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    You make a valid point, but I'm not sure you can say Manning's/Montana's lines were better than Brady's.
    Sure I can. I watched them all.

    Sacks allowed this year.

    New England 18 games 24 total

    Indy 17 games 23 allowed.


    Both were beat by Saints, Bengals, Packers and Browns.


    Colts led the league in 2005 and 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    Sure I can. I watched them all.

    Sacks allowed this year.

    New England 18 games 24 total

    Indy 17 games 23 allowed.


    Both were beat by Saints, Bengals, Packers and Browns.


    Colts led the league in 2005 and 2006
    Sacks don't tell the whole story. Factors such as elusiveness, how long a QB holds onto the ball, etc play a part as well. Manning gets rid of the ball much quicker than Brady.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    Manning gets rid of the ball much quicker than Brady.
    Maybe that's true, but in doing so manning also made more mistakes than brady in the end of the year. All in all the results and performances speak for themselves......brady is playing in the superbowl yet again, and manning will be at home watching it on tv again. You could go round and round all day long with the "Who's the better quarterback arguement." This year there's really no question about who it was. I'll completely agree to the fact that brady isn't the best QB ever "yet", but he's well on his way of accomplishing that feat if his progress and accomplishments continue.

    If the pats win this superbowl convincingly and complete the perfect season, they'll be no doubt in my mind he's one of the best to ever play the position. It's really amazing the similarities montana and brady have in their overall play, leadership and demeanor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    Maybe that's true, but in doing so manning also made more mistakes than brady in the end of the year. All in all the results and performances speak for themselves......brady is playing in the superbowl yet again, and manning will be at home watching it on tv again. You could go round and round all day long with the "Who's the better quarterback arguement." This year there's really no question about who it was. I'll completely agree to the fact that brady isn't the best QB ever "yet", but he's well on his way of accomplishing that feat if his progress and accomplishments continue.

    If the pats win this superbowl convincingly and complete the perfect season, they'll be no doubt in my mind he's one of the best to ever play the position. It's really amazing the similarities montana and brady have in their overall play, leadership and demeanor.
    As much as I hate the Pats, you have a strong argument if we want to talk bottom line.

    I don't see the Pats losing the superbowl, they're too damn efficient and confident this year... Oi!!

    It's going to doubly annoy me when they achieve that perfect record too... [deep sigh]
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    Sacks don't tell the whole story. Factors such as elusiveness, how long a QB holds onto the ball, etc play a part as well. Manning gets rid of the ball much quicker than Brady.
    If he gets the ball off quicker then it should benefit his stats and performance more so than Brady. It didn't... which sort of proves the point even more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    Maybe that's true, but in doing so manning also made more mistakes than brady in the end of the year. All in all the results and performances speak for themselves......brady is playing in the superbowl yet again, and manning will be at home watching it on tv again. You could go round and round all day long with the "Who's the better quarterback arguement." This year there's really no question about who it was. I'll completely agree to the fact that brady isn't the best QB ever "yet", but he's well on his way of accomplishing that feat if his progress and accomplishments continue.

    If the pats win this superbowl convincingly and complete the perfect season, they'll be no doubt in my mind he's one of the best to ever play the position. It's really amazing the similarities montana and brady have in their overall play, leadership and demeanor.
    Where did all that come from? I wasn't arguing which QB is better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    If he gets the ball off quicker then it should benefit his stats and performance more so than Brady. It didn't... which sort of proves the point even more.
    How so? I feel that the extra time in the pocket can allow your receiver to complete his route and get open. Weren't we discussing o-lines and not the better QB???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    Not if he ties and/or beats those who are deemed the greatest in terms of stats (on a yearly basis, not career) and Superbowl wins.
    at this point in his career it is still too early. However within the next 5 years, if he is healthy, and has won another super bowl or two, its his.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    Where did all that come from? I wasn't arguing which QB is better.
    Maybe you weren't, but they sentence i responded to could have been taken in different ways. Anyway, a solid offensive line absolutely adds a definative dynamic to any QB's abilities in general, however imho quarterbacks' are defined in their ability to make good decisions while under pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    Maybe you weren't, but they sentence i responded to could have been taken in different ways. Anyway, a solid offensive line absolutely adds a definative dynamic to any QB's abilities in general, however imho quarterbacks' are defined in their ability to make good decisions while under pressure.
    Well said. I just think his o-line often gets overlooked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    How so? I feel that the extra time in the pocket can allow your receiver to complete his route and get open. Weren't we discussing o-lines and not the better QB???
    Because Manning and Brady have outstanding lines and watching both teams (have to love direct tv) for years, I conclude that Indy's line is better (and so do the stats). You can credit O-Lines all you want but there isn't much of a difference between the two. New England doesnt allow far greater time than Indy does at all. In fact, its the opposite. Indy gives up less sacks with a less mobile QB. They rank top 5 every year and have been ranked number 1 in both 2005 and 2006.

    Now add that on top of a quicker release from Manning (which is the one of the most fundamental aspects of a QB) and Manning should have better stats. He doesn't (this year). When he was at his best, he broke an NFL record. Brady broke it and its not because their line gave him more time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Because Manning and Brady have outstanding lines and watching both teams (have to love direct tv) for years, I conclude that Indy's line is better (and so do the stats). You can credit O-Lines all you want but there isn't much of a difference between the two. New England doesnt allow far greater time than Indy does at all. In fact, its the opposite. Indy gives up less sacks with a less mobile QB. They rank top 5 every year and have been ranked number 1 in both 2005 and 2006.

    Now add that on top of a quicker release from Manning (which is the one of the most fundamental aspects of a QB) and Manning should have better stats. He doesn't (this year). When he was at his best, he broke an NFL record. Brady broke it and its not because their line gave him more time.

    Again, I'm not trying to discuss which QB is better. That's a toss up in my opinion. I guess what I'm trying to say is the O-lines often don't get the credit they deserve. Just think back to the 90's Dallas team when Emmitt Smith would buy all of his linemen a Rolex as a sign of appreciation. I don't hear of that happening anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    Just think back to the 90's Dallas team when Emmitt Smith would buy all of his linemen a Rolex as a sign of appreciation. I don't hear of that happening anymore.
    Damn emmitt i want a rolex!......actually i'll just take a little trip into the city and get me a nice cheap knock-off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    Again, I'm not trying to discuss which QB is better. That's a toss up in my opinion. I guess what I'm trying to say is the O-lines often don't get the credit they deserve. Just think back to the 90's Dallas team when Emmitt Smith would buy all of his linemen a Rolex as a sign of appreciation. I don't hear of that happening anymore.
    Wow, never knew that. That's some above & beyond show of appreciation! Great guy.
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    I think a few things are being lost here. Firstly, up until this year Brady was viewed as a fantastic clutch player, but not necessarily a "QB's QB". Reggie Miller was also a fantastic clutch player, but that does not mean he was better than Michael Jordan.

    Secondly, the Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls, not Tom Brady. The old "too much credit when they win, and too much blame when they lose" adage applies here. Last time I checked, Tom Brady plays one position on one side of the ball.

    Thirdly, Manning still owns Brady as it pertains to records. As it stands, although Brady's 2007 broke Manning's single-season TD record, many other records Manning set that year still stand (including highest passer rating, most consecutive games with at least 2 and 4 TDs respectively) . He is also on pace to break every major statistic for a QB. Completions, passes, yards, TDs, and he already holds the 2nd highest passer rating for a career and most games with a perfect passer rating. Despite his fantastic year, Manning is still a better statistical QB. As I said, the Patriots and not Tom Brady beat Indy so many times.

    Fourthly, I am not quick to anoint anybody the 'best' just yet. I am sick of hearing "the next Gretzky" or "the next Jordan" only to see players like Lindros, Daigle, Kwame Brown, and their ilk fizzle and drop. Now, T.Brady is already approaching unparalleled success, so I am not insinuating he is hack (obviously) just that a more tempered response is necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I think a few things are being lost here. Firstly, up until this year Brady was viewed as a fantastic clutch player, but not necessarily a "QB's QB". Reggie Miller was also a fantastic clutch player, but that does not mean he was better than Michael Jordan.

    Secondly, the Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls, not Tom Brady. The old "too much credit when they win, and too much blame when they lose" adage applies here. Last time I checked, Tom Brady plays one position on one side of the ball.

    Thirdly, Manning still owns Brady as it pertains to records. As it stands, although Brady's 2007 broke Manning's single-season TD record, many other records Manning set that year still stand (including highest passer rating, most consecutive games with at least 2 and 4 TDs respectively) . He is also on pace to break every major statistic for a QB. Completions, passes, yards, TDs, and he already holds the 2nd highest passer rating for a career and most games with a perfect passer rating. Despite his fantastic year, Manning is still a better statistical QB. As I said, the Patriots and not Tom Brady beat Indy so many times.

    Fourthly, I am not quick to anoint anybody the 'best' just yet. I am sick of hearing "the next Gretzky" or "the next Jordan" only to see players like Lindros, Daigle, Kwame Brown, and their ilk fizzle and drop. Now, T.Brady is already approaching unparalleled success, so I am not insinuating he is hack (obviously) just that a more tempered response is necessary.
    Everyone here has good posts, even perspectives I don't necessarily agree with have been delivered and expressed with great point of views.
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    agreed with above
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I think a few things are being lost here.
    I'm not losing anything. Its' my perspective on who the best QB is....
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Reverend View Post
    Again, I'm not trying to discuss which QB is better. That's a toss up in my opinion. I guess what I'm trying to say is the O-lines often don't get the credit they deserve. Just think back to the 90's Dallas team when Emmitt Smith would buy all of his linemen a Rolex as a sign of appreciation. I don't hear of that happening anymore.
    And what I'm saying is its ALL relative....Great QB's have great lines for the most part. That is a given... What those QB's DO with those lines determine what I think of them. This year is the first time Brady has had REAL talent at WR....and his numbers show it. So for me, he can put up the numbers like the Mannings, Marino's, Elways, etc...AND he can win the big one as he done for 3 times. You can't ask for any more out of QB.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    And what I'm saying is its ALL relative....Great QB's have great lines for the most part. That is a given... What those QB's DO with those lines determine what I think of them. This year is the first time Brady has had REAL talent at WR....and his numbers show it. So for me, he can put up the numbers like the Mannings, Marino's, Elways, etc...AND he can win the big one as he done for 3 times. You can't ask for any more out of QB.
    I couldn't have said it better myself.....bravo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I'm not losing anything. Its' my perspective on who the best QB is....
    It was not directed at you specifically, but the whole thread. My point was that the Patriots, not Tom Brady, and the Colts and not Peyton Manning have won Super Bowls. Fact is, Brady has had one stellar statistical season, and has been the best player on the best organization in football. In my view, this does not directly equate to him being the greatest.

    I just don't think Bowls alone equate to greatness, or people would have brought up Bradshaw more in this context.

    For my money, if I am a GM on an expansion team and I am given the choice between Manning and Brady, I take Manning. The man hasn't thrown less than 26 TDs in any season. His 2004 season, despite losing that record to T.Brady, is still better than Brady's 2007. Either way though, I'll reserve my judgment until they both retire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    And what I'm saying is its ALL relative....Great QB's have great lines for the most part. That is a given... What those QB's DO with those lines determine what I think of them. This year is the first time Brady has had REAL talent at WR....and his numbers show it. So for me, he can put up the numbers like the Mannings, Marino's, Elways, etc...AND he can win the big one as he done for 3 times. You can't ask for any more out of QB.
    THAT I can agree with. I'm still not sold on Brady being the best ever but he might be after this weekend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    It was not directed at you specifically, but the whole thread. My point was that the Patriots, not Tom Brady, and the Colts and not Peyton Manning have won Super Bowls. Fact is, Brady has had one stellar statistical season, and has been the best player on the best organization in football. In my view, this does not directly equate to him being the greatest.
    No, winning 3 Superbowls, going on his 4th WHILE breaking records does.

    Brady won 3 with less offensive talent than other "greats" and its not because they had a hall of fame defense either. Give him offensive talent and he'll break more records.

    I just don't think Bowls alone equate to greatness, or people would have brought up Bradshaw more in this context.
    He has been.

    For my money, if I am a GM on an expansion team and I am given the choice between Manning and Brady, I take Manning. The man hasn't thrown less than 26 TDs in any season. His 2004 season, despite losing that record to T.Brady, is still better than Brady's 2007. Either way though, I'll reserve my judgment until they both retire.
    Thats because there is a difference between throwing to Harrison, Wayne, Pollard and throwing to Deion Branch and an aging Troy Brown (earlier).

    I take Brady. Given the same talent that surrounds Manning, he would flourish the same if not better. He's already proved that this year.
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    I completely agree that now that brady has some serious offensive talent (Welker,Moss,Stallworth,Gafney ) his overall abilities and potential are really starting to surface. He put up good numbers with a significantly less talented offense in recent years while winning 3 superbowls in the process.

    IMHO if brady had been within the same highly talented offense structure that manning or any of the other greats had from the beginning many of those coveted QB records may have belonged to brady himself.......currently, and/or in the end.

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    Are you secretly a pats fan there Jer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    No, winning 3 Superbowls, going on his 4th WHILE breaking records does.
    See below.

    Brady won 3 with less offensive talent than other "greats" and its not because they had a hall of fame defense either. Give him offensive talent and he'll break more records.
    Once again, The Patriots won 3 with less collective Offensive talent, but a team game that creates synergy. Bellichek and Brady are the perfect storm, Bellichek's record without Brady proves as such. Now, this pre-Brady mediocoreness does not necessarily validate Brady as the greatest, but bolsters the point that he fits perfectly within Bellichek's ideom and game scheme.

    He has been.
    Really? I think one person mentioned him in a passive fashion. The majority of the discussion has been about Brady and Montana.



    Thats because there is a difference between throwing to Harrison, Wayne, Pollard and throwing to Deion Branch and an aging Troy Brown (earlier).

    I take Brady. Given the same talent that surrounds Manning, he would flourish the same if not better. He's already proved that this year.
    He has had one stellar offensive year, while Peyton threw 26 TDs as a rookie and has never thrown less. This illuminates my point perfectly, Peyton is instant offense, and Brady is instant clutch. Given the right field position, right calls, and right teammates, Brady has been able to orchestrate clutch drives. This does not mean he is the 'greatest' just that he fits impeccably in the system he plays in. This in and of itself is a great QB trait, but does not mean he is the greatest.

    How do you explain Peyton's instant melding and success in his rookie year?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    How do you explain Peyton's instant melding and success in his rookie year?
    They are both great in so many aspects of the game overall, but come'on mullet manning was basically birthed into an offensive juggernaut. Its hard not to flourish in that gifted environment with the talent he has.

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    Meh, you're right. My point is that the fickle nature of NFL, over all other professional leagues, makes me weary in anointing anybody anything until the conclusion of their career.

    Though I understand the thought process going on here, I don't agree.

    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree (that and I am way too sick to be expending energy on this!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Meh, you're right. My point is that the fickle nature of NFL, over all other professional leagues, makes me weary in anointing anybody anything until the conclusion of their career.

    Though I understand the thought process going on here, I don't agree.

    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree (that and I am way too sick to be expending energy on this!)
    Agreed. Well get well soon buddy......we've got a superbowl to watch!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    See below.
    I read below. Still doesnt change anything.


    Really? I think one person mentioned him in a passive fashion. The majority of the discussion has been about Brady and Montana.
    Probably because most people also remember the Steel Curtain being a large factor.





    He has had one stellar offensive year, while Peyton threw 26 TDs as a rookie and has never thrown less. This illuminates my point perfectly, Peyton is instant offense, and Brady is instant clutch. Given the right field position, right calls, and right teammates, Brady has been able to orchestrate clutch drives. This does not mean he is the 'greatest' just that he fits impeccably in the system he plays in. This in and of itself is a great QB trait, but does not mean he is the greatest.

    How do you explain Peyton's instant melding and success in his rookie year?

    Once again, give the same amount of talent to Brady and he is just as good as Manning in terms of numbers and even better in the clutch.

    How can I explain his instant "success"? Well 26 TD's is good but 28 INT's is even better. I could care less about rookie seasons....

    I care more about 4806 yards, 50 TD's, 8 INT's with 3 going on 4 rings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    Are you secretly a pats fan there Jer?
    I hate everything Boston. Does that help?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I hate everything Boston. Does that help?
    I had figured as much lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I read below. Still doesnt change anything.

    Probably because most people also remember the Steel Curtain being a large factor.

    Once again, give the same amount of talent to Brady and he is just as good as Manning in terms of numbers and even better in the clutch.

    How can I explain his instant "success"? Well 26 TD's is good but 28 INT's is even better. I could care less about rookie seasons....

    I care more about 4806 yards, 50 TD's, 8 INT's with 3 going on 4 rings.
    You seem to be overlooking the fact that this is Brady's first impressive offensive season. If he repeats this and wins this Bowl then I would be more inclined to agree with you. You are also attributing Bradshaw's rings to the team game, but simultaneously giving Brady the sole credit for the Patriot's success.

    Once again, Tom Brady plays one position, not the whole team. He has more rings because the Patriots are a better organization than are the Colts. Better draft choices, savvier trading, tighter team philosophy, craftier, etc., Last time I checked T.Brady doesn't play MLB, doesn't field kick and punt returns, doesn't play wide-out or corner, doesn't kick, and doesn't play on the O and D Lines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    You seem to be overlooking the fact that this is Brady's first impressive offensive season. If he repeats this and wins this Bowl then I would be more inclined to agree with you. You are also attributing Bradshaw's rings to the team game, but simultaneously giving Brady the sole credit for the Patriot's success.

    No, he had some impressive seasons before, just not record setting.


    I am not attributing anything to anyone. I simply said people will probably not mention him because they remember a Hall of Fame defense. I already said he was included before.

    And nobody gave Brady sole credit for anything. I gave him credit, not sole credit. There is a difference.



    Once again, Tom Brady plays one position, not the whole team.
    Once again, it doesn't change anything to me.

    He has more rings because the Patriots are a better organization than are the Colts.
    Or because their QB is better.

    Better draft choices, savvier trading, tighter team philosophy, craftier, etc.,
    Or because their QB is better.


    Last time I checked T.Brady doesn't play MLB, doesn't field kick and punt returns, doesn't play wide-out or corner, doesn't kick, and doesn't play on the O and D Lines.
    You're right, he only throw 50 TD's, 8 INT's and has 3 rings going on 4. Thats enough for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    No, he had some impressive seasons before, just not record setting.

    I am not attributing anything to anyone. I simply said people will probably not mention him because they remember a Hall of Fame defense. I already said he was included before.

    And nobody gave Brady sole credit for anything. I gave him credit, not sole credit. There is a difference.

    Once again, it doesn't change anything to me.

    Or because their QB is better.

    Or because their QB is better.

    You're right, he only throw 50 TD's, 8 INT's and has 3 rings going on 4. Thats enough for me.
    Bobo, excuse my ignorance that the QB of each team wins games and/or Superbowls by themselves. I had forgotten. I just remembered Miami's wins under Marino, and the 4 Bowls Atlanta won under Vick.

    Football is a team game, more than any other sport.

    By the way, despite the 50 and 8, Manning's 2004 Season still holds the record for highest passer rating, most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes, most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes, most games with at least 4 touchdown passes. He also holds the record for most career games with a perfect passer rating, as well as a few other records Brady isn't on pace to touch.

    If Manning keeps on pace to break EVERY major statistical category for a QB and gets to the Bowl one or two more times and wins, mentioning him as one of the greats is impossible to deny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Bobo, excuse my ignorance that the QB of each team wins games and/or Superbowls by themselves. I had forgotten. I just remembered Miami's wins under Marino, and the 4 Bowls Atlanta won under Vick.
    Where did I say the QB's win by themselves? You seem to work in absolutes when someone doesnt agree with your opinion. All or nothing...sorry, it doesnt work that way. I don't agree with you viewpoint no matter how much you try to be sarcastic and be condescending to those who don't 100% believe in your total team concept. I believe the QB is the most important position on the field and can basically win or lose a game more so than any other position therefore when they win, I give them more credit than anyone. If you don't agree, good for you..have fun with that.



    Football is a team game, more than any other sport.

    Gee thanks for that. I mean its great that you are here to tell us these things.

    By the way, despite the 50 and 8, Manning's 2004 Season still holds the record for highest passer rating, most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes, most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes, most games with at least 4 touchdown passes. He also holds the record for most career games with a perfect passer rating, as well as a few other records Brady isn't on pace to touch.

    Well good for him....doens't change anything for me.


    If Manning keeps on pace to break EVERY major statistical category for a QB and gets to the Bowl one or two more times and wins, mentioning him as one of the greats is impossible to deny.
    IF....



    You can quote your total team concept all you want...you can state as many statistics as you want. I see the same info you do and it doesnt change my opinion at all. I make judgements based on what I deem important, not you. I think Brady is better than Manning, I think if he wins a 4th he is the best ever and I won't be a minority in that thinking. Think what you want, I don't care.
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