Best player in the NHL(currently)
- Thread starter Spectre32
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Rodja
Board Sponsor
Regardless of where he plays currently, Foppa will always be an AV...but I cannot pick him as the best player in the NHL today. He has not had a healthy season since 02-03 and the injury risk is way too high. The best player in the NHL right now is(again) Jaromir Jagr. He finally found his spark again and he is dominating the ice. In 3 years the great debate will be Crosby, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, or Malkin.Spectre32 said:
Sunder
Active member
Spectre32 said:
Not sure I understand what you mean here. Do you mean that Jagr is only the best because people aren't able to get away with stopping him illegally like they may have in the past? I think that if the only way to slow a guy down is having to resort to illegal moves, then that guy is pretty darn good.
As for the old/new rules, I'm not so sure Forsberg was necessarily better than Jagr before or after. I haven't checked the stats, but I don't ever remember Forsberg getting more points than him in any season.
As for who's the best this year - nobody stands out to me. Either the best have gotten worse, or the worst have gotten better. If I *had* to pick someone, I'd actually lean towards Ovechkin, but wouldn't argue against Jagr.
LuckyBoy
Member
if peter could stay healthy for an entire season he would run away with the scoring title every time. he may never win the richard trophy for most goals but he is by far the best set up man in the nhl. and i agree, when he goes into the hall of fame he better do it as an av. jagr has always been an extremely talented forward but has always benefitted from the talent around him. from being on a line with lemieux and francis in pitt to all his czech linemates in ny. from his days in washington i get the impression that his numbers wouldnt be as significant as they are now if he didnt play with such studs. not taking anything away from his talent tho. and i kno someone will chime in with the talent that surrounded peter with the avs and his linemates in philly but remember he was the 2nd line center on the avs.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Combination of speed, skill, and grit I put Jarome Iginla hands down..Granted he is having an off year, however this will be his fifth consecutive 30 goal season, and the past three he either took, or shared the league lead in goals. Another point, is barring once again, this years Olympics Iginla brings it in the clutch, I can't say the same for Jagr, or Forseberg
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Forsberg not a clutch player...have you looked at his post-season stats. Some years he leads postseason scoring without even reaching the Stanley Cup Finals. Also, do the 1994 Winter Olympics mean anything...Forsberg won the gold for Sweden(they even made a stamp of an overhead caption of the goal).Mulletsoldier said:
Also, Iginla seems to alternate great and average seasons. I don't think he has ever had two awesome back-to-back seasons.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Peter Forsberg has had more points in the playoffs then Iginla on two occasions, and never a better +/- ...Secondly, lets remember playing on a line with Milan Hejduk, Joe Sakic, Theoren Fluery (when he was good), or some of the other players Forsberg has played makes it alot easier to score thirty goals or one hundred points. It is alot easier to set up Joe Sakic then it is Daymond Langkow, or Chris Drury. It is also alot easier to score when there are three or four legitimate scoring options on the ice as was the case with virtually every Avalanche team he played on. Name one player who is as talented as any of three aformentioned that has played on a line with Jarome Iginla, barring the one year Fleury and Iginla were in Calgary. Forsberg isn't gonna fight when a spark is needed, he isn't going to grind it out. He is going to come down with a stomach virus and leave you dry in the playoffs
LuckyBoy
Member
ok, youre officially nuts. forsberg is one of the most physical forwards in the game. have you ever seen him in the corner with the puck? HE hits the defenseman!! you mentioned drury in reference to someone that wasnt clutch when he has been nothing but clutch his entire career, especially with the avs and he is now the captain of the sabres. joe sakic and peter only played on the same line during desperate scoring times and power plays. the biggest majority of forsberg's avs career was played on the same line with the likes of valeri kamensky, claude lemiuex, adam deadmarsh etc it seemed like he was out there with superstars bcuz peter makes everybody on the ice with him that much better. iginla is a great player but nowhere near the caliber of forsberg. you mentioned the olympics where i dont remember iginla doing much of anything, or team canada for that matter. where as sweden struggled in its early games without peter and ended up winning gold with him. dont remember how many points he had but they were up there. i think you may be a little bitter from all the years that peter took it to the flames j/k :thumbsup:
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
LuckyBoy said:
1)Never said he WASN'T PHYSICAL I said he IS NOT going to start a fight when the time is needed to spark his team.
2)Are you nuts?You seriously are going to argue that any player Iginla has played with has compared to some of the players that Forsberg has been paired with?You need to check your lines dude. And let's muse that for most of his career he was paired with Valeri Kamensky, having the previous line being Sakic/Hejduk/Tanguay, or a similiar combination is going to make it alot easier to score.
3)I never said Drury wasn't clutch, I was talking about his consistent offensive output being nowhere near that of Forsberg's previous linemates
4)I actually mentioned how Iginla didn't produce in the Olympics, citing that as one of the times he did not play well...But, if you remember 2002 and Canada winning the gold, Iginla was a huge part of that.
5)You seriously, seriously, cannot tell me you think it is just as easy to put up numbers on perennially offensively challenged, defense minded Calgary teams as it is on the star-studded teams of the Avs, pre-CBA.
LuckyBoy
Member
well you said he wasnt going to grind it out also so thats why i said what i did. he does throw a big hit when the team needs it tho which can be on the same level as a fight. im not attacking iginla in any way, i was cheering as hard as anybody for him in 2002 with canada since sakic is my hero and they were on the same line. drury was actually one of the better linemates peter had on the 2nd line. he had pretty good numbers from what i remember. and systems do have a lot to do with offensive output, like i said im not downplaying iginla's achievements but i just dont consider him to be on the same level as forsberg. most teams would match their number one d men against foppa's line even tho he was a 2nd line center in colorado. that tells you the respect he commands around the league. like i was saying before tho, he made everybody around him look like an allstar. i dont think deadmarsh or claude wouldve had the offensive numbers they did without peter centering the two. the avs have always had amazing talent up front. peter didnt always play with the best they had and thats where a lot of people get confused.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
I see what you are saying, Forsberg can be a dominant force in the league, but if you ever happen to check out a Flames game, watch the D as Iginla comes into zone, they start checking him tight at the point, and completely disregard his linemates. Cause like I said he never really gets the chance to play with an offensively-gifted line-mate. But all this being said I am glad they play that way, you may beat Calgary on a given night, but they are meant to beat you in a seven game series..
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Here are just a few of the players that Forsberg has made great: Chris Drury, Steven Reinprecht, Adam Deadmarsh, Ville Nieminen, Valeri Kamensky. When he played w/ Hejduk, Milan lead the league in goals. Very seldom does Forsberg play w/ the best linemates in Colorado or Philly. Besides, if he was just an average player, then he would not be 4th in all-time assists per game. Bottom Line-Iginla is one of the best power forwards of his era, Forsber is one of the best players of all-time.Mulletsoldier said:
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Agree with that. I don't even think its a close comparison when looking over the last 10+ years.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Rodja said:
Yeah, true that..But the thread is the best player in the NHL right now..Not who was better
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
And to say Forsberg made those players GREAT, IMO is a huge overstatement, he made them better..
Sunder
Active member
Forsberg is a great player (when he plays), there's no denying that.
But - there's 19 other people ahead of him in scoring this year alone. Many of those players above him are 2-way forwards too, in case you want to justify that Forsberg brings more to the table than just points.
It would be difficult to convince me he's the current best.
But - there's 19 other people ahead of him in scoring this year alone. Many of those players above him are 2-way forwards too, in case you want to justify that Forsberg brings more to the table than just points.
It would be difficult to convince me he's the current best.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Mulletsoldier said:
Then its definetly not Iginla.
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Sunder said:
Points/game this year he is top 3 at 1.34/game and I would venture to say he is more of a 2 way player than Jagr, Thorton and Staal.
Sunder
Active member
Bobo said:
Definetly not Iginla. I couldn't honestly entertain the argument that he's the current best. He's a great player, but he's not in Forsberg's league.
I may say that I'm not convinced that Forsberg is the best current player, but I do believe he makes a strong case for himself, and I'm willing to keep an open mind. I'm not against Forsberg being considered the best, but it just seems like nobody stands out from the pack this year (vs say the Gretzky and Lemeaux era).
Bobo said:
No argument that Forsberg is a better 2 way player than Jagr. I honestly haven't watched Thorton or Staal much, so I can't say anything on them.
Points per game is always an important stat to me (well, at least when I do playoff pools). But since Forsberg has a history of playing less games than everyone else (he is known to be injury prone), I have to say that his overall points stand as is and not his points per game. Staying healthy and playing games is part of the package of being a complete hockey player - and that would be the biggest mark against Forsberg.
I'm not taking anything away from Forsberg's skill (lord knows I witnessed it too much as I'm an Oiler fan, and he singlehandedly beat us many times), but if we are going to be talking about the "best", then I have to go by their accomplishments, and not by "what if - fantasy" stats. ie: What if Forsberg played the full season, he would have XXX points, etc. If he had a fluke 1-time injury, then I'd be ok with it, but it's not. Missing games is the norm for Forsberg now - I just don't see him as the best right now.
PS - I hate Jagr and his attitude too, while I'm a fan of Forsberg's attitude.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Spectre32 said:
Haha..Even I can't argue with that..I mean I said it earlier, he has not been producing at the level expected of him that is very true..To get slightly off topic I liked how somebody mentioned in five years the conversation will be who is better between the newest crop..That will be interesting debate.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Rodja said:
Yeah, he has really dropped off this year...
Wedgylx
Board Supporter
Bobo said:
c'mon bobo, you're really going to bring up Thornton's name in a conversation about best players in the NHL?
Thornton is overrated, in my opinion (I'm from Boston so I have gotten to see more of him than I have wanted to in the past few years).
He's definitely calm with the puck and good behind the net...but I'd definitely not say one of the top players in the game. Hell, when you get to playoffs the guy vanishes.
Jagr has been a favorite of mine for a long time. However, despite the fact he has amazing skill, I don't think he plays with a lot of heart sometimes. Some games he just doesnt show up. Also, he isnt much more than a parking cone in the defensive end.
Forsberg is a great player but, as has been said earlier, he has a hard time staying healthy.
Lecavalier is a very underrated player with more than his fair share of skill that can play in both ends of the rink.
Most underrated player in the NHL soon to become a superstar....Gionta. He's the kind of guy that shows up to win. He'll throw the body, dig in the corners, help out on D...anything to win. I really like his style of play.
Ovetchkin (I'm sure I spelled that one incorrectly) and Crosby are two others who will be making a nice impression on the league in a few years...the next superstars.
The league is in a state right now where there really arent any more superstars...no posterboys for the sport. No "great one", no Lemieux....I'm excited for one to step up.
Wedgylx
Board Supporter
Sunder said:
wow, great minds think alike I guess lol.
I'm rereading the thread more closely, after reading bobo's input I had to reply
Aside from Martin Brodeaur and Dominic Hasek, who are both on the path to retirement (sweeter the second time for hasek) we don't have any dominant goaltenders either anymore. It seems like we are plagued with flashes in the pan that burn out well before they should.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Correction the best ever. There are several good goaltenders, but they take time to develop. If Luongo goes to a better team, then he will finally get the recognition he deserves. The next great goaltender is Kari Lehtonen of Atlanta. This guy won the MVP of the Finnish Elite League when he was 18. By 07-08, he will establish himself as the best in the game.Spectre32 said:
Dwight Schrute
I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Wedgylx said:c'mon bobo, you're really going to bring up Thornton's name in a conversation about best players in the NHL?
.
Usually, no way. I just brought that up because his ability was questioned just because he wasn't the tops in scoring (or close to it).
The only knock I see on Forsberg is staying healthy. I just assumed when we were discussing the best player it was assumed he is healthy. Everyone sucks when they arne't playing!
Many of the injuries are because he IS physical. If he wasn't then he wouldn't be as good but then he wouldn't get hurt as well Double edged sword.I tihnk Jagr is the best pure offesnive threat but he has problems stepping up. You can frustrate him and get under his skin pretty easily. In high emotional games, such as the playoffs, he tends to disappear if he seen as "the man". Put him in a secondary role (as he was with Mario) and he can flourish. He doens't handle being the number one guy that well....as seen in Washington. He even wasn't that good with the Rangers up until this year but the new rules certainly help him. We'll see in the playoffs when those rules aren't enforced as much. And as already stated, he is horrible defensively.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
Bobo said:
This year he even criticized his Czech national teammates for resting everything on his shoulders..To me personally, that epitomizes the calibre of player he is. A player like Messier for example, the one Jagr was to have taken the captaincy from this year LIVES for moments when the hopes of each player on the team rests on his shoulders. Take the '94 Eastern Conference finals, Mess not only garuantees the win but scores a hat trick in the third period, forces a game seven and then leads the Rangers to the cup. Now, I realize we are talking best player right now, but with all the talk of clutch performance in this thread I think it can be argued Mess brought it when it had to be brought, everytime. Something that cannot be said about Jagr, and to me that is one of the defining characteristics of a great player.
uhockey
Board Sponsor
Peter Forsberg is certainly the most talented player in the NHL, but his style has been hampered by the chronic injuries. Jagr is also an excellent player, but he neglects the defensive zone frequently and is not the best "teammate" or leader quality player in the NHL.
I know I'll catch some flak here, but the best player in the NHL CURRENTLY is Ovechkin. What he does on that sorry-ass team is almost unbelievable. He's solid in both zones, is a fierce leader, and is physically dominating of players larger than him both with and without the puck.
A good case could also be made for Joe Thorton.
I know I'll catch some flak here, but the best player in the NHL CURRENTLY is Ovechkin. What he does on that sorry-ass team is almost unbelievable. He's solid in both zones, is a fierce leader, and is physically dominating of players larger than him both with and without the puck.
A good case could also be made for Joe Thorton.
Spectre32
Member
I was watching the Caps game last night and Ovechkin was quite solid. I think he is very talanted but He few and far between on the Caps. I'm not saying my team(Penguins) is in any better shape but so far since the trade deadline we have been winning. Once malkin gets here pittsburgh is going to have a pretty fierce squad. I know right now we have almost the youngest team in the NHL. Gonchar is a massive dissapointment.
Spectre32
Member
There not going bankrupt there just not getting what they desirve. Like PGH need s anew arena, just at least in terms of having quality shows come though and such. THey way they(mario and the pens) want it done is very benefical to taxpayers b/c no one pays for it. SInce were(PA) getting slots licances it is the best way for the city and the region. PGH is only going to get one licance and there are two active bidders for it. The pens and some other guy. Both have good idea for the slots and such but the Pen 's ideas is more benefical to the city as a whole. The gov of PA heavly supports Philla over PGH so there is some contrversy there. THe teams finical toruble are non-existant. The fan base for the pens is bigger than that of the Pirates. Even though were loosing there consistantly between 12-15K worth of people at the games every time they play. So it not really the team going bankrupt, its them not getting a new arena. It will be one of those 11th hour deals and the city will bail the team out. My uncle is a Chielf for the Firedept in PGH and the tax revenue that the city brings in from the games is something on the order of paying the entire months pay for a Truck and Engine Company.....off of one night of the pens playing. There gonan be around.
uhockey
Board Sponsor
Send Pitt to Portland, move Detroit to the Eastern Conference. Then Columbus will be the only EST team in the West.....and I really can't see the Panthers remaining in Miami too much longer.
As for pitt someday being good.......what, Malkin is going to make their defense less horrid? Fleury is going to live up to the hype? Gonchar is going to start playing defense?? They are the worst team in the NHL and even with Malkin they will cleanse the cellar next season unless they make some serious free agent moves.
As for pitt someday being good.......what, Malkin is going to make their defense less horrid? Fleury is going to live up to the hype? Gonchar is going to start playing defense?? They are the worst team in the NHL and even with Malkin they will cleanse the cellar next season unless they make some serious free agent moves.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
uhockey said:
Although I agree with the defense comment as their entire back-end is generic quality due to the constant fire-sales of good players in recent years, IMO Fleury will live upto the hype at some point. I think he has shown promise this year, although he makes mistakes he has also kept them in some games they never deserved to be in.
LuckyBoy
Member
uhockey said:
Malkin is better defensively then Ovechkin is so everything youre saying about AO can be said for Malkin. I think he will make as big of a difference for the pens as AO is for the caps. And i love the idea of detroit going to the east. im sick of my avs facing them in the playoffs. well... when they lose to em anyways.
rockhard_4eva
Banned
I'll go with Markus Naslund. He's been injured for the whole year with a bad groin, but kept on playing. He missed out on Gold, is playing with an underachieving line mate, but he'll prove his worth