To T.O. or not to T.O.
- 12-09-2005, 06:52 PM
And BTW, on a small side note..... this business about TO alleging McNabb was out of shape for the superbowl......."I wasn't the one who ran out of gas in the super bowl":
I recorded Superbowl XXXIX and have watched it many times. While I haven't heard it discussed, I don't believe McNabb lacked conditioning, I believe he was hurt. Teams don't usually talk publicly about things like that, and McNabb isn't one to make excuses.
As the game wore on the Patriots front 7 were getting to him and knocking him around. There was one play in particular into the 4th quarter where Richard Seymour drove McNabb into the ground. McNabb was slow to get up, was rubbing one side of his jaw and overall, really seemed to fade from that point on. Seymour weighs in at something like 310 lbs and was moving pretty good when he hit him. And it wasn't just the hit, it was that he drove McNabb's back down to the ground by driving him from the point of contact, his chest/abdomen area. At the speed these guys move at, it had to be a helluva shot to absorb. McNabb is a tough guy but there's only so much punishment even an athelete of his calibur can absorb, and I think that one was effectively the tko that finished him and the hopes of the Eagles that night.
- 12-09-2005, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by anabolicrhino
The teams buys NFC Championship rings for everyone. Now some guy who came along in the last year decides he is gonna sell his. Not only sell it but make a big deal out of it.(TV cameras, personal presentation to the high bidder) Oh of course he says "I am selling it to help the hurricane victums". BULL**** the man took a calculated stab at the entire Eagles team. $9MILL MINUS $50K... write a check and shutup. That is unless you can`t write a check. Hmmm...
12-09-2005, 09:22 PM
Are you aware how the contract TO signed is structured. Pay him if he is good or cut him and recoup if he ain`t.Originally Posted by CDONDICI
12-09-2005, 09:23 PM
12-09-2005, 09:38 PM
It`s funny you mention this... we had a thread awhile ago about TO. I mentioned something that was reported. Paul Domovitch (spell?)Originally Posted by sandinsciuz
writes for one of the locals about the Eagles. He went back and ran through the whole SB tape. While on The Angelo Cataldi tv show, not radio, he showed the tape where McNabb fumbles the snap
and falls on it near the TIRED-THROWING UP-OUT OF BREATH TOOK place. It showed Mc on the ground back to the D. And Bruschi(NOT an indcitment, clean play, **** happens) tackles Mc and his knee is driven into McNabbs kindey region.
Then McNabb gets up and stumbles to
huddle. Hmm... take a shot to the kidney and you will appear to be choking-out of breath or maybe throwing up.
D. Mcnabb would never say this out loud... man doesn`t talk **** or give excuses. Takes after his coach. Everyone did see the Farve-Reid-Holmgren piece on Monday night didn`t they?
No one ever says that TO could have been infering to Pinkston. He did leave with cramps/dehydration in the second half.
Last edited by EEmain; 12-09-2005 at 10:01 PM.
12-09-2005, 10:00 PM
My take after much reading and FACT gathering.
TO asks for more money, in the media, because he wants more or thinks he deserves more or has to have more NOW!
Bad contract, wait till he sees his next one.
Eagles say NO! Play and get paid or not!
TO petitions McNabb to support him in the media... McNabb doesn`t respond.
TO gets pissed. Attack starts. He blames McNabb for saying something in way( NO ONE has been able to show me a print of the quote) that hurt hims feelins.. Ahhhhhhh...
McNabb still doesn`t go off. "I don`t play games in the media."
TO redirects with threats to disrupt and destroy the season. Doesn`t work. "Play and get paid or not."
Send him home in TC. Lies about SECRET WAIVER... says he can`t play with McNabb and the hypocrit crack.
McNabb finally has enough "Keep my name and my familys out of your mouth!" to the press. TO wouldn`t talk to him right?
All the letters say what the charges were. Much more has been rumored and unconfirmed.
TO didn`t do as Reid asks. He left and entire paragraph out of the Speech that was written about McNabb.
He gets kicked. Then he is soooooo sorry. Money is going BYE-BYE. But being sorry for the consequences and being sorry for your actions is too different things. See you, wouldn`t want to be you!
If I missed anything sorry. Feel free to laugh, at least one of you will, but he is gone and the EAGLES are a better TEAM without him. Not more explosive on offense BUT ADDITITON BY SUBTRACTION better.
12-09-2005, 10:14 PM
This is a TO time line to trace the events of the last ttwo years.Please help to correct if you can.
Feb 2004-Owens and Mcnabb meet at the probowl and talk about how great they could be together.
Mar.-TO's agent "forgets to file for free agency". Owens is now stuck with the 49ers unless they trade him.His only option is to sit out a year.He is completely screwed by his agent and will have to take what ever deal he can get.Why he did not fire his agent at this point is amazing.I mean that's all agents do..file papers and he forgot!WTF
Apr.-49ers trade Owens to Baltimore.NFL steps in and says that Philadelphia had the first deal option on Owens.This went totally unexplained at the time and really pissed off everyone in Baltimore and SanFrancisco
May-Owens signs an average deal for much less than he would have gotten as a free agent.He gets to play with Mcnabb and a Superbowl ready team.He also agrees to a broad termed clause to protect the Eagles from any TO mischief. No decent agent would have let him sign it.It basically gives the Eagles the right to opt out at anytime for any reason.The deal makes him the third highest paid receiver on average in the NFL,but most of it is in the form of a roster bonus to be paid in March of 2006.Not uncommon in todays NFL,but still risky as it is not guarenteed money.
Sept2004-FEB 2005-Owens,Mcnabb and the Eagles go on to a record setting season It culminates with Owens,playing on a broken ankle, being the best player on the field in a 3 point Superbowl loss.Everyone loves TO
Mar 2005-TO meets Drew Rosehaus at an ESPN charity Bowling event.Owens fires his agent and hires Rosenhaus.He immediately lets it be known that he wants more money now because he feels he out performed the structure of his current deal with the Eagles.He says he risked his career to play in the Superbowl against doctors orders.The Eagles say "NO DEAL!" they site numerous occasions where they did not renegotiate "in" contract.
April 2005- Owens askes his good friend and teamate McNabb to support him in his quest for a new deal. McNabb wants nothing to do with Owens contract squabble.( understandable as he makes 15 million a year and has toomany endorsment deals to risk by rocking the boat) He responce to the media is "we can win with or without him" He goes on to say that TO should come to camp so he can be in his best shape for the new season. Owens responce to Mcnabbs comments about physical conditioning( Owens is a legendary fanatic on physical conditioning ) " I wasn't the one sucking wind in the 4th quarter of the Superbowl"
June2005- Owens is fined for missing a mandantory minicamp.
July 2005-TO's first play of the pre season, after being suspended one week for being insubbordinate, is a 60 yard td reception. All is good!
Sept-Mcnabb injured in loss to Falcons. He stll plays but he is not the same player.
Oct2005-The Eagles are being spanked in Denver 28-7, when Owens smokes Champ Bailey for a 91yrd TD. Eagles come back falls short when Mcnabb makes the first of many bad 4th quarter decisions.TO while being interveiwed by a Syracuse University( where McNabbs is on the board of trustees) is asked whether he agrees with Michael Irvins' remark about how the Eagles could possibly be undefeated if Brett Favre was their QB, instead of the injured Mcnabb(Irvin was pointing out, that he did not think it was fair for Favre to have to play for a ****ty team in what could be his last year.) Owens responce "...a yeah I guess I could see that, I could agree with that..." ESPN plays this taped interview more than the Rodney King tape.
Nov.2005 Hugh Douglas former Eagle player and current self proclaimed ambassador ( him self a former contract hold out ) challenges Owens in the training room about the severity of his current ankle injury.Owens accepts the challenge and anyone else who wants to say something.Andy Reid suspends Owens indefinately unless he appologies to the entire team.He does but is a day late and 12 million dollars short. Good bye TO
Dec2005-The Eagles suck.They quit at halftime during a MNF 42-0 blow out to Seattle at home during "Reggie White" night.
Right now-I feel sick and write this timeline to help the healing process
12-09-2005, 10:22 PM
Hey EE you were making a timeline the same time I was making a timeline.Weird! I do agree with the whole trying to embarrass the Eagles anyway he can theory.You have to admit selling his ring is classic I mean this guy takes vindication to a completely different level.What a freak!Originally Posted by EEmain
and this party in Atlantic City.This is a complete soap opera
12-09-2005, 10:36 PM
12-09-2005, 11:08 PM
Few things... the arbitration hearing was about the date in TOs contract being different than the CBA. If the NFL gave rights to Eagles why give Balt. a draft pick? Or were the teams told to make it work. No decision was made, settled first. The hearing only came about after Balt. told TO no new contract.
The Eagles were given the right to negociate with TO while working a trade with SF. Contract was done, at least that was the word. Balt. comes in and gets him because the Eagles were playing hardball with the Niners over a draft pick.
Its a debate that his ankle was still broken or healed. The screws and plate were still there and it was expected he would snap them but didn`t. IIRC 2 more weeks(from SB) and the Doc was to pull the screws and plate.
TO wasn`t the best player or Wideout that night! He(Best Player) got to hold the Lombardi and took home the MVP.
However TOs play was the stuff of legend. Now he is in a class with Richie Allen and Eric Linlost(Lindros)
I only wish they would have lost to GB. Here hoping!
Chad Greenway, OLB, Iowa: This former high school quarterback has developed into one of the best defensive players in the country while at Iowa. At 6-4, 239 pounds, he is relentless in his pursuit of the ball. Very fast, with playmaking ability
Mario Williams, DE, North Carolina State (Jr.): At 6-7, 285 pounds, he has outstanding speed off the edge. Has been a starter since he stepped on campus as a freshman. He could be higher on this list with a great junior season
A.J. Hawk, LB, Ohio State: LB out of Ohio State. 6'2" 235 pounds, he has the size and speed teams like. . Very fast, intelligent LB, with playmaking ability. Possibly the years best defensive playmaker. He's one of those players who seems to be everywhere when you watch him play
Ahmad Brooks, LB, Virginia (Jr.): LB out of Virginia. 6'4" 260 pounds. Couldn't design a better looking LB. Fearless. Vicious. Fast and highly athletic. Has the potential to be one of the greats some day. He's a tackling machine for the Cavaliers, but he does have some off-field issues that worry scouts.
Mathias Kiwanuka, DE, Boston College: DE out of Boston College 6'7"-6'8" 260 pounds. Regarded as the best pure pass rusher in the country last season. Came back for his senior year and expected to be even better. Physical freak who runs a 4.6 40. We know teams are desperate for pass rushers, which will make this speed rusher a potential top five pick
Haloti Ngata, DT, Oregon (Jr.): At 6-5, 345, he has the powerful build to be a run-stuffer on the next level. He also has some quickness to collapse the pocket.
Oh the rewards of incompetence!
12-10-2005, 12:16 PM
I hope he goes to the falcons, if they get him watch the hell out. They will be a serious contender next year.
12-10-2005, 01:20 PM
I dont know if youve ever played a team sport, but no matter how "disruptive" he is you are not better after cutting you best player. Did you see anyone on the team come out and say we dont want T.O. back? No but they did say they would want him back. Look at the numbers. They just got kill by the seatle seahawks, are 10pt underdogs at home in against the giants, and are looking at a loss to the ****ing cardnals.Originally Posted by EEmain
All anyone said for 4 yrs around here was, "were good, but we need a star recevier" We finally get one, and probly would havce won the Sb if he wasnt hurt and the rest of the team showed up, but then donavann gets jelous, and Andy reid decides after 6 yrs or so or great coaching, to stick his head straight up his ass.
Players cut or let go:
You cant get rid of good players and expect to still be good, I dont know what andy reid thinks, but that is another story.
You guys both forgot this from your timelineAll im sayin is I could give three f***s less is T.O. made donavann cry, get your ass on the damn feild and play football.It all started when t.o. was first hurt, Mcnabb in a pissy fit of JELOUSY, after being asked if he thinks the eagles will win in the playoffs without t.o. said he was sick of all the t.o. crap, we can win without him.
Apologies are for your girlfriends.
And Donavann is not courageuos, watch every game loosing int he throws he always seems to get shaken up on the return.
And after that vicious block in the dallas game where he falls on his back he tears his groin apart, he decides the eagles are going nowhere and decides to quit.
12-10-2005, 02:09 PM
TO wasn`t the best player or Wideout that night! He(Best Player) got to hold the Lombardi and took home the MVP.
You are correct sir.He was the best player on the losing team.However anytime a WR wins the MVP, he had to get some help from his QB.(Brady 0 ints/McNabb 3 ints)
as far as a draft I like that kid from Penn State.(name?)he just won the Bednarick award.Maybe a new face in the secondary.How about scrapping the "haven't won a SuperBowl since the Packers" westcoast offense.Pro-set works pretty well for the Colts and Rams.McNabbs skill set is much better suited to a long passing, power running game.Remember all the deep balls to Owens and Pinkston last year?
12-10-2005, 02:29 PM
Ouch! I agree that Mcnabb looks weak in the whole Owens saga.I would rather had them duke it out in the locker room.If I made 15 million a year you would not be able to piss me off.Ultimately it was Reids decision.He comes off looking like a protective father.Questioning McNabbs physical toughness doesen't make any sense.This is the NFL and everybody plays hurt.Mcnabb is no exception.After the Dallas game ended with Mcnabb making the biggest choke of his career, the season was over.No team is going to risk their franchise player in a "no luck" season like the Eagles are having this year.If you have ever meet someone who has a sport hernia or any kind of abdominal muscle injury asked them if they think the could play football with it.McNabbs record among starting QB's speaks for itself.7 years in NFL,5 straight years of winning at least one playoff game(only Aikman,Favre,Stabler have done that)4 NFC championship games,1 superbowl.5 consecutive probowls(only player in NFL). Granted he has 0 rings,but if your names not Brady,Johnson,Warner or Dilfer, you don't have one either!Originally Posted by CDONDICI
12-10-2005, 03:22 PM
Yea your right, everyone plays hurt, including T.O. and McNabb, but one is brave when he does it, and one is selfish... one is productive the other is not.
I just don't understand why donavann is like a god to people, when his dumb ass should have went in for surgery rigth after the falcons game, instead of throwing away a whole season.
12-10-2005, 04:56 PM
TO wanted desperately to play in "The Game" last year and worked his tail off to get rehabbed enough to be effective. And yes, he was effective.Originally Posted by CDONDICI
Donovan this year was playing REGULAR SEASON games with multiple tears/hernias, sternum injury, etc.
Just based on that, which player appears to be the more selfless of the two?
This is not to say that some part of TO's motivation to work hard to get back in time for the super bowl wasn't to help his team. Still the super bowl is a big stage with huge ratings and a good outing there from any player only increases their fair market value. TO is a hired gun and little more. Donovan is the leader of his team. Big difference, and that's why he's held in high esteem by fans and TO is not.
And btw it's a little ridiculous to insinuate that the embarrassing loss to the Seahawks was due to TO's absence. The truth is they've won without him, in spite of his talent. McNabb's absence however creates a much larger void, which usually is the case when you're talking about a team who has one of the best QB's in the league. They're a rare commodity that take years to develop, and not every draft produces one.
Aside from the embarrassment of the whole TO debacle, another aspect that I haven't heard discussed, is that Donovan must feel he's lost face, a little, with the Eagles organization. My understanding is that McNabb had initiated talks with the Eagles organization and lobbied to bring TO into the fold. I imagine at some point Reed & Lurie must have said something to him like "Hey Donovan, uh, thanks a lot for talking us into bringing THIS guy through the door! Any OTHER bright ideas?!"
12-10-2005, 06:01 PM
Just remember your seat on the bus next year has already been filled by a REAL FAN.Originally Posted by CDONDICI
Keep drinking TOs coolaid my friend
12-10-2005, 06:06 PM
Groin didn`t come up till after Niners game... then "Well it bothered me back in camp some." <---- more ammo for the McNabb hatethon you are runningOriginally Posted by CDONDICI
12-10-2005, 06:09 PM
I will and I will not feel one bit bad when whatever team T.O. is on next year pisses all over andy and donavann along with the rest of the nfl. And when we dont get to a superbowl ever again.Originally Posted by EEmain
I understand how ppl that arent from around here think like this, but EEman arent you from around here? Do u ever listen to wip? Do you want the eagles to win?
12-10-2005, 06:16 PM
I knew it "Howard Eskin" thats who has been talking to us!Originally Posted by CDONDICI
No not really, mostly Zealots(I am being as nice here as I can) call in and bash everthing with disinformation and
12-10-2005, 06:21 PM
They will win. 3 positions need to be addressed and they will. Hasn`t Reid shown you anything?Originally Posted by CDONDICI
Once you come down off the TO thing you`ll see...
12-10-2005, 06:38 PM
Wow, I almost forgot to give you the props for the Dick Allen reference.He was a little before my time.I remember just the mention of his name would rile people up.I could almost smell the hate.I guess 1960's Philly was not ready for an outspoken big scary black guy.I think you are dead on in the comparison of Allen and Owens. Atleast in asmuch as the media presented them both as being poison to their teams and the city.People say nobody ever hit the ball harder than Dick Allen. He too was a physical freak.( 6'4" 230lbs baseball player in the 1960's was a freak! ) Statistically he compares favorably with the all-time greats. Apparently he didn't give a **** about what people thought and didn't mind telling them.He called the city the team and the league all racist.After he left it took the Phillies 10 years to recover.Originally Posted by EEmain
12-10-2005, 07:18 PM
they need a little more than 3 positionsOriginally Posted by EEmain
The eagles have tons of problems...
12-10-2005, 07:22 PM
Allen was before me too! My neighbor who is 89 and the biggest Phillies fan I know has told me about him.Originally Posted by anabolicrhino
12-10-2005, 08:05 PM
Loosing does that to Sports Radio and the Newspapers. Catastrophizing* is the term I use.Originally Posted by CDONDICI
*"Catastrophizing" is what happens when you think that the worst possible outcome will happen when anticipating danger or difficulty, especially in circumstances where this is actually very unlikely.
12-10-2005, 08:50 PM
EE......Originally Posted by EEmain
I admit you piqued my curiousity so I went back to check it out. I think the play you're talking about happened with 3:28 to go in the fourth. And in fact, several Patriots players collapsed the pocket and as the whole gang was going down on and around Donovan, Ted Bruschi was the last one to make contact. As you pointed out, Bruschi didn't intentionally throw a knee, but you're right in that he might have taken one anyway. As they went down, Bruschi basically tripped over McNabb but one leg/knee did appear to land on McNabb's back.
When the pile cleared, and McNabb walked back to the huddle, he reminded me of a boxer who was spent. He was very unsteady and breathing heavily through his mouth, etc. And immediately following the next play, Donovan appeared to cough twice, and I mean violently. Either that or he was throwing up, his upper body moved that much. Unfortunately the network camera immediately moved away to something else so I couldn't really tell what happened next. If 3 or 4 250-300 pound guys fall on a QB.............?
Was that "the" play? Was that one of several, or many? It's hard to tell because after a QB throws the camera follows the ball and we don't see. Several minutes earlier Jarvis Green broke through and put a wicked lick on him as well.
The Eagle's are not my "team". But I admire and respect them. Donovan McNab has also earned my admiration and respect. When people get into talking superlatives about who's the best, it's all subjective as far as I'm concerned. Ask different coaches and they'll even give you different answers. But any objective conversation about top QB's in the league right now has to include him. And the one thing I can't imagine anyone questioning at this point is Donovan McNabb's heart.
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