What are SAA's (Silk Amino Acids)???

[ScottyDoc]

 

[MrKleen73]

Very interesting read. I knew SAA's were good and a better form of aminos, but I did not realize they would have any role in the HPTA.

 

[DreamWeaver]

Cool never occurred to me either.

 

[MrKleen73]

It is interesting that happens and I wonder if it is due to lowering cortisol secretion during the workout sine ATP is plentiful with the SAA. The fact they had muscular ingreases from cardio is pretty impressive to say the least.

 

[tpsss]

ergo-log has a little write up on this that is a little easier to get into. just search Silk amino acids (can't post links)

Heard about this a while ago but it didn't seem to make much of a splash. Anyone have any experience with it?

 

[rhizome]

A non-blinded study with swimming rodents that didn't match nitrogen intake or calorie intake between groups or compare SAAs with other aminos. Seems legit. That study is really weak support.

Not to mention that making rodents swim is an art in and of itself as well as being a confounder. Rodents like to "take rests" and stop swimming and sink when they are forced to try to swim. Then you have to rustle their jimmies to get them going again. That typically increases stress and alters hormones and the act of sinking and re-emerging often increases oxidative stress.

 

[MrKleen73]

Fair enough, and yet it increased the recovery from those stressors and resulted in higher testosterone levels. I am not saying moreso than BCAA because as you mentioned there is nothing in here to make that comparison. Perhaps the guys who formulated it can provide us with some more studies. I will have a look at the ergo-log and see if it makes any of the comparisons.

 

[MrKleen73]

Copied from http://www.ergo-log.com/silkaminoacids.html

Silk Amino Acids: more muscle, more stamina, more testosterone
If human athletes react as well to hydrolyzed silk protein chains as mice do, they’ll no longer need Aicar, steroids of IGF-1. Even though a little nagging voice tells us that gear sales are not likely to dip for the next fifteen years, we are still excited about the article on the new product that Korean researchers published in Biological & Pharmaceutical Bulletin.

The researchers, working for Chungbuk National University and Worldway manufacturer, gave male mice a daily preparation containing hydrolyzed silk proteins. The preparation, produced by Worldway[www.worldway.co.kr], consisted of 34 percent alanine, 27 percent glycine, 10 percent serine, 3 percent valine and 2 percent threonine. Most hydrolyzed silk peptides consist of a chain of 18-19 amino acids, so this is probably true of the preparation that the researchers tested. The mice were given doses of 50, 160 or 500 mg/kg silk proteins dissolved in water.
Half an hour after administration, the animals were made to swim for 30 minutes. A control group was given only water, but also made to swim.
On days 14, 18, 28 and 42 a weight was attached to the mice’s tail and they had to swim to the point of exhaustion. The mice that had been given Silk Amino Acids held out for considerably longer than the mice in the control group.

After 44 days the Koreans measured the concentrations of cortisone [the inactive analogue of cortisol] and testosterone in the mice’s blood, after a 30-minute swimming session. The swimming reduced the testosterone level in the control group mice, but in the mice that had had Silk Amino Acids it had risen. The effect was particularly noticeable at low doses.

When the Koreans examined the body composition of the mice after 44 days, they noticed that the Silk Amino Acids had increased the muscle mass.

As far as we can tell from the study, the mechanism behind the performance-enhancing effect is two-pronged. To start with, Silk Amino Acids protect the muscles against damage from radicals that arise from physical exertion. The researchers measured the amount of thiobarbituric acid reactive substances [TBARS] in the calf muscle. TBARS arise when radicals attack the fatty acids in membranes. The table below shows mg TBARS/gram tissue after 44 days.

Another mechanism is that the Silk Amino Acids boost the production of glycogen in the liver and the muscles.

The researchers used daily doses of 50, 160 and 500 mg/kg. For an athlete weighing 85 kg that amounts to 4.3, 13.6 or 42.5 g Silk Amino Acids per day. Fortunately rodents’ metabolism is about ten times higher than that of humans, so you can comfortably divide the dosages by 10.
Source:
Biol Pharm Bull. 2010 Feb; 33(2): 273-8.

 

[MrKleen73]

Interesting from ergo-log definitely a little easier to understand and they correlate it a little to human use. However I am curious about the testosterone rise since I have not heard of this happening from BCAA's.

 

[rhizome]

Interesting from ergo-log definitely a little easier to understand and they correlate it a little to human use. However I am curious about the testosterone rise since I have not heard of this happening from BCAA's.

Lack of isocaloric / isonitogenous conditions, researcher / handler bias due to being unblinded along with the small sample size in statistical analysis are definitely plausible reasons.Several of the researchers have conflicts of interest having associations with the company producing and selling the SAAs. I trust their objectiveness and the study not having ulterior motives to drive new business about as far as I can kick my piss.

As a point of reference, mice of that size eat about 4-6 grams of food per day. Even the "low dose" amounts to a ~25% increase in calories (from ~1.5 grams) and an unknown % increase nitrogen since the nitrogen content of their diet is undisclosed. The high dose adds an additional ~15 grams on top of their base 4-6 grams food / d.

 

[3clipseGT]

Interesting to say the least. Id like to give these SAAs a go at some point.

 

[MrKleen73]

Lack of isocaloric / isonitogenous conditions, researcher / handler bias due to being unblinded along with the small sample size in statistical analysis are definitely plausible reasons.Several of the researchers have conflicts of interest having associations with the company producing and selling the SAAs. I trust their objectiveness and the study not having ulterior motives to drive new business about as far as I can kick my piss.

As a point of reference, mice of that size eat about 4-6 grams of food per day. Even the "low dose" amounts to a ~25% increase in calories (from ~1.5 grams) and an unknown % increase nitrogen since the nitrogen content of their diet is undisclosed. The high dose adds an additional ~15 grams on top of their base 4-6 grams food / d.

Fair enough that you have your doubts, I will not try to convince you since I can not prove you wrong nor prove this right. Since there is not a comparison between BCAA's and SAA that I have seen so I can't speak to that... I will see if the formulators can provide more information.

 

[Force of Green]

Copied from http://www.ergo-log.com/silkaminoacids.html

Silk Amino Acids: more muscle, more stamina, more testosterone
If human athletes react as well to hydrolyzed silk protein chains as mice do, they’ll no longer need Aicar, steroids of IGF-1. Even though a little nagging voice tells us that gear sales are not likely to dip for the next fifteen years, we are still excited about the article on the new product that Korean researchers published in Biological & Pharmaceutical Bulletin.

The researchers, working for Chungbuk National University and Worldway manufacturer, gave male mice a daily preparation containing hydrolyzed silk proteins. The preparation, produced by Worldway[www.worldway.co.kr], consisted of 34 percent alanine, 27 percent glycine, 10 percent serine, 3 percent valine and 2 percent threonine. Most hydrolyzed silk peptides consist of a chain of 18-19 amino acids, so this is probably true of the preparation that the researchers tested. The mice were given doses of 50, 160 or 500 mg/kg silk proteins dissolved in water.
Half an hour after administration, the animals were made to swim for 30 minutes. A control group was given only water, but also made to swim.
On days 14, 18, 28 and 42 a weight was attached to the mice’s tail and they had to swim to the point of exhaustion. The mice that had been given Silk Amino Acids held out for considerably longer than the mice in the control group.

After 44 days the Koreans measured the concentrations of cortisone [the inactive analogue of cortisol] and testosterone in the mice’s blood, after a 30-minute swimming session. The swimming reduced the testosterone level in the control group mice, but in the mice that had had Silk Amino Acids it had risen. The effect was particularly noticeable at low doses.

When the Koreans examined the body composition of the mice after 44 days, they noticed that the Silk Amino Acids had increased the muscle mass.

As far as we can tell from the study, the mechanism behind the performance-enhancing effect is two-pronged. To start with, Silk Amino Acids protect the muscles against damage from radicals that arise from physical exertion. The researchers measured the amount of thiobarbituric acid reactive substances [TBARS] in the calf muscle. TBARS arise when radicals attack the fatty acids in membranes. The table below shows mg TBARS/gram tissue after 44 days.

Another mechanism is that the Silk Amino Acids boost the production of glycogen in the liver and the muscles.

The researchers used daily doses of 50, 160 and 500 mg/kg. For an athlete weighing 85 kg that amounts to 4.3, 13.6 or 42.5 g Silk Amino Acids per day. Fortunately rodents’ metabolism is about ten times higher than that of humans, so you can comfortably divide the dosages by 10.
Source:
Biol Pharm Bull. 2010 Feb; 33(2): 273-8.

The Koreans made a bet on what they could accomplish first: 1. Get a rocket into space 2. Get rodents to swim laps

 

[ScottyDoc]

Lack of isocaloric / isonitogenous conditions, researcher / handler bias due to being unblinded along with the small sample size in statistical analysis are definitely plausible reasons.Several of the researchers have conflicts of interest having associations with the company producing and selling the SAAs. I trust their objectiveness and the study not having ulterior motives to drive new business about as far as I can kick my piss.

As a point of reference, mice of that size eat about 4-6 grams of food per day. Even the "low dose" amounts to a ~25% increase in calories (from ~1.5 grams) and an unknown % increase nitrogen since the nitrogen content of their diet is undisclosed. The high dose adds an additional ~15 grams on top of their base 4-6 grams food / d.

Fair enough that you have your doubts, I will not try to convince you since I can not prove you wrong nor prove this right. Since there is not a comparison between BCAA's and SAA that I have seen so I can't speak to that... I will see if the formulators can provide more information.

rhizome... I am in no way attacking you, you definitely seem to have vast knowledge in this subject, maybe even more than we do. But I am confused as to what your point is? We are basing our product off of this study, which is supposed to be a non-biased study (not really sure what you mean by the people who conducted the study had a vested interest in SAA's causing them to sway their data/research in one direction or another), but we never said that SAA's are better than BCAA's. All we have ever said was that SAA's are a very good organic source of 11 different amino acids that have been proven to contribute to muscle building and repair and by combining the SAA's with the BCAA's in our product, we = FINAFLEX believe we have perfected the Amino Acid Matrix. We at FINAFLEX are not scientists or researchers, but we base our knowledge off of what we learn from the studies performed by these scientists and/or researchers. Honestly my friend, we are not here to argue about how a research/study was conducted.

 

[MrKleen73]

That stance makes sense and is something I can live with. Either way the BCAA+SAA is not priced as crazy as the strictly SAA products which makes it a nice option.

 

[rhizome]

rhizome... I am in no way attacking you, you definitely seem to have vast knowledge in this subject, maybe even more than we do. But I am confused as to what your point is? We are basing our product off of this study, which is supposed to be a non-biased study (not really sure what you mean by the people who conducted the study had a vested interest in SAA's causing them to sway their data/research in one direction or another), but we never said that SAA's are better than BCAA's. All we have ever said was that SAA's are a very good organic source of 11 different amino acids that have been proven to contribute to muscle building and repair and by combining the SAA's with the BCAA's in our product, we = FINAFLEX believe we have perfected the Amino Acid Matrix. We at FINAFLEX are not scientists or researchers, but we base our knowledge off of what we learn from the studies performed by these scientists and/or researchers. Honestly my friend, we are not here to argue about how a research/study was conducted.

My point is that you are using a study to say, in your words, that SAAs "have been proven to contribute to muscle building and repair".

This cannot be further from reality due to the horrendous methodological flaws and inherent biases of the researchers. Could have any other random combination of aminos produced the same result? Could have gavaging additional calories produced the same result? Not to mention the results have not been replicated by independent labs. It's quite naive to think that "pay for play" doesn't go on when academia and business/funding entities are intermingled. Several high profile researchers in the US have even been nabbed for doctoring/swaying results.

It's quite unfortunate when supplement companies cannot discuss the merits, limitations and validity of the research they use to support the use of certain ingredients. That forms the basis for the inclusion or exclusion of ingredients in the first place. Failure to be able to interpret research and the use of "studies", any study regardless of its relevance, are the thorns in the side of supplement companies and what differentiates the laughing stock from the legit.

 

[Force of Green]

My point is that you are using a study to say, in your words, that SAAs "have been proven to contribute to muscle building and repair".

This cannot be further from reality due to the horrendous methodological flaws and inherent biases of the researchers. Could have any other random combination of aminos produced the same result? Could have gavaging additional calories produced the same result? Not to mention the results have not been replicated by independent labs. It's quite naive to think that "pay for play" doesn't go on when academia and business/funding entities are intermingled. Several high profile researchers in the US have even been nabbed for doctoring/swaying results.

It's quite unfortunate when supplement companies cannot discuss the merits, limitations and validity of the research they use to support the use of certain ingredients. That forms the basis for the inclusion or exclusion of ingredients in the first place. Failure to be able to interpret research and the use of "studies", any study regardless of its relevance, are the thorns in the side of supplement companies and what differentiates the laughing stock from the legit.

Very well said. Could've said it better, myself

 

[snagencyV2.0]

rhizome is always a good read.
valid point as usual.

and it is this point exactly, why i simply don't put stock in every little study that comes out..
they are but a reference tool, nothing more.

 

[DreamWeaver]

It's hard for me to comment, I know we have been putting out good products so I will trust that this is another one. I agree with Steve though ..good points were made about the study.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I know we have been putting out good products so I will trust that this is another one..

oh absolutely.
this has nothing to do with the product, and everything to do with the quality parameters of said study.

 

[DreamWeaver]

oh absolutely.
this has nothing to do with the product, and everything to do with the quality parameters of said study.

Noted

 

[snagencyV2.0]

all right so let's step on by flawed studies, and see some real-world results.

first played with the product today..awesome taste (fruit punch flav - Finaflex seems to have perfected all of the 'red flavors' of their products ie like fruit punch and watermelon)..insanely good mixability.
will be on the lookout for more to share as i lean more on this product going forward, gradually lowering caloric intake as i cut.

first impressions are :thumbsup: .. and who doesn't like 7.6g of EAA at opportune timeframes??

 

[DreamWeaver]

all right so let's step on by flawed studies, and see some real-world results.

first played with the product today..awesome taste (fruit punch flav - Finaflex seems to have perfected all of the 'red flavors' of their products ie like fruit punch and watermelon)..insanely good mixability.
will be on the lookout for more to share as i lean more on this product going forward, gradually lowering caloric intake as i cut.

first impressions are :thumbsup: .. and who doesn't like 7.6g of EAA at opportune timeframes??

Now I want to try it, I wonder how Chris is dosing with IF ...

 

[MrKleen73]

I am doing 1.5 scoops pre and post workout. I just got mine and I like the flavor too. Mixes pretty good as well like he said.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I am doing 1.5 scoops pre and post workout.

i'm at 1 scoop 30-40min preWO, another scoop intra right now..
when i hit next level of caloric decline i'll be moving to 3 scoops total (1.5 pre/1.5 post), as the main change in diet will be elimination of postWO shake/simple carbs.

i'll tell ya this: these last 2 workouts yesterday & today, with the inclusion of BCAA+SAA, have been the best i've had in a long while -- and, i'm in PCT.

 

[MrKleen73]

Well there you go, I have noticed increased staying power in later sets myself.

 

[DreamWeaver]

I am doing 1.5 scoops pre and post workout. I just got mine and I like the flavor too. Mixes pretty good as well like he said.

Sounds about right to me... I will try it starting Wednesday...

 

[snagencyV2.0]

so i've switched to 2 scoops BCAA+SAA preWO (along with 1 scoop Ignite2), been liking it just swell.

taste is pretty potent too (same flavoring), even with lots of water..not bad, rather a very good taste..

a caveat: if you are making this very concoction i mention above, pay attention to what you are doing
do not try to multi-task (like having an important conversation on the phone while you are measuring out product)
there is a very real possibility you will accidentally put 2 scoops of Ignite2 and 1 scoop of BCAA+SAA in there, instead of the other way around.

:shocked:

it is not a pleasant experience
at all

 

[DreamWeaver]

so i've switched to 2 scoops BCAA+SAA preWO (along with 1 scoop Ignite2), been liking it just swell.

taste is pretty potent too (same flavoring), even with lots of water..not bad, rather a very good taste..

a caveat: if you are making this very concoction i mention above, pay attention to what you are doing
do not try to multi-task (like having an important conversation on the phone while you are measuring out product)
there is a very real possibility you will accidentally put 2 scoops of Ignite2 and 1 scoop of BCAA+SAA in there, instead of the other way around.

:shocked:

it is not a pleasant experience
at all

I take my preworkout before and my bcaa's intra, close to the same dosing.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I take my preworkout before and my bcaa's intra, close to the same dosing.

yeah i'm playing with things, must've used about 4-5 variations so far..love me some experimentation!

 

[MrKleen73]

No doubt, I do mine together as well. I don't have a huge time frame to experiment since i am at the gym pretty much within 30 minutes of waking up.