Dermacrine Sustain vs SERM's
- 08-22-2007, 07:47 PM
Dermacrine Sustain vs SERM's
Okay, I wanted to post this in here as I think there is some debate on this issue. AND yes I am possibly suggesting that Sustain could be used in place of a SERM (nolva, torem, clomid, etc).
A SERM is used post cycle therapy to basically block the negative effects of estrogen while your hormone levels return to normal after discontinuing using a source of exogenous test (steroid, ph's).
Basically a SERM doesnt necessarily reduce estrogen but it blocks receptors from the negative side effects of high estrogen floating around in the body. This is taken from post cycle therapy.com explaining how Clomid works:
Clomid is capable of reacting with all of the tissues in the body that have estrogen receptors. It influences the way that the four hormones GnRH, FSH, LH and estradiol, relate and interrelate. It appears that Clomid fools the body into believing that the estrogen level is low. This altered feedback information causes the hypothalamus to make and release more gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which in turn causes the pituitary to make and release more FSH and LH. More follicle stimulating hormone and more luteinizing hormone should result in increased testosterone production.
Now Sustain, from my understanding is designed to "control estrogen" (with the phyto-al blend) while at the same time reducing/stopping negative effects of estrogen (with resveratrol).
So my question is a SERM still needed? The obvious bad things about SERMs are toxicity issues. Which could potentially make Sustain superior in post cycle therapy. What is everyones thoughts (and I know most here will be very partial to using SERMs).
- 08-22-2007, 08:02 PM
SERMs, specifically clomiphene, have enormous amounts of clinical research illustrating their effectiveness in restoring HPTA function after harsh steroid cycles.
Though Sustain looks like a promising product (I intend to give it a run within a month or so) I would not substitute it when SERMs have the research showing that in the specific situation of steroid use, they allow recovery.
- 08-22-2007, 08:06 PM
08-22-2007, 08:11 PM
The issue is simply that you're swimming in 'uncharted waters'.
Resveratrol is a great ER antagonist, but is still relatively new to the science community.
Has it been clinically shown to modulate ER's?
Has it been clinically shown to increase testosterone?
Has it been clinically shown to block ER's in breast tissues?
Has it been clinically shown to quickly return the body to homeostasis following a suppressive anabolic steroids cycle?
Will it assist in returning the body to homeostasis following a steroids cycle?
Is there any information comparing it to a SERM for use in returning the body to homeostasis after a suppressive anabolic steroids cycle?
You're replacing a chemical that was designed specifically to block estrogen receptors, with a chemical found in grapes and peanuts that coincidentally has the ability to bind to ER-alpha and ER-beta without promoting an estrogenic effect.
08-22-2007, 08:19 PM
well again here tho, recall that SERMs were not designed with us in mind... so although in some ways they do manage to give the results we want, I hate looking at their side effect list (vaginal discharge anyone?). I am almost willing to place my testicles up for this, and do a regular cycle instead of a pulse in late october/early nov, and just use resveratrol as post cycle therapy. something like 500mg a day thru cycle, 1g/day last week of cycle, 2g a day following 2 weeks, 1g a day the 2 weeks after that. Of course, with a good serm handy just in case it doesnt work out
08-22-2007, 08:21 PM
I love getting those vaginal discharges after my cycle is over.
08-22-2007, 08:26 PM
what confuses me still on nolva is this
I mean crap, it raises estrogen ?? isn't that against the point?NOLVADEX is well tolerated in males with breast cancer. Reports from the literature and case reports suggest that the safety profile of NOLVADEX in males is similar to that seen in women. Loss of libido and impotence have resulted in discontinuation of tamoxifen therapy in male patients. Also, in oligospermic males treated with tamoxifen, LH, FSH, testosterone and estrogen levels were elevated. No significant clinical changes were reported.
08-22-2007, 08:33 PM
Let's look at caffeine to get a better example of what I'm getting at:
Caffeine is an andrenergic Antagonist. What happens when you drink a crap load of coffee (caffeine)? It your epinephrine/norepinephrine levels go through the roof and you get all 'buzzed'. What happens later in the day? You crash like a airplane without wings. You're body lowers it's epinephrine/norepinephrine levels to compensate for the blocked receptors, and guess what, they're not blocked anymore.
08-23-2007, 03:07 PM
Usually, the decision for someone to use Sustain over Clomid or Nolva is to avoid the side-effecs of these SERMs. I personally don’t use either clomid or nolva due to there extensive toxic profile. (liver toxic, ocular toxic, genotoxic, libido suppressing, ect)
Clomid and Nolva are synthetic estrogens that have super-estrogen effects, anti-estrogenic effects, and screwy DNA damaging effects depending on the bodily tissue and metabolite. I went through exhaustive research with these compounds, and the closer you look at them, the more damaging they appear.
Consider this – We are about to enter the 3th major generation of medical SERMS. Clomid and Nolva are first generation SERM’s with the worst side effect profile, toremifene and raloxifene are second generation, and bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene are 3rd generation. Each generation improves upon the previous generation by being less toxic. That should tell you something. I can post a full referenced write up on this.
Everyone who has replaced their typical SERMs with Sustain has been more than happy. So far, everyone claims to actually be recovering better with Sustain, compared to clomid or nolva. While I do believe Sustain to be equally effective for PCT purposes, I think people’s results are so positive because they are simply suffering from less side effects. (Contrary to popular believe, post cycle sexual dysfunction is often a result of PCT drugs such as clomid or nolva, not low testosterone)
08-23-2007, 06:14 PM
Im still debating. Perhaps I will run low dose nolva for a week or two in pct on top of the Sustain. The compounds I am using (Epidrol+Dermacrine) are not all that toxic or harsh to begin with.
08-23-2007, 09:19 PM
08-23-2007, 09:27 PM
Pharmacists use a special concept/method called Click Chemistry which enables them to rapidly design MANY different drugs of the same class. They are 99% sure of what's gonna happen with these drugs before they are ever even synthesized.
After they're created, they still need to be tested and evaluated before they can be put to use.
08-23-2007, 09:35 PM
I guess i'm back to deciding whether to play testicle roulette with resveratrol, or liver roulette with nolva
08-23-2007, 09:41 PM
I prefer to play russian hooker roullete. This requires 6 hookers, one of which is either a Transvestite or has the Clap. It's quite fun.
08-23-2007, 11:12 PM
08-24-2007, 12:46 AM
09-14-2007, 11:15 AM
09-14-2007, 11:34 AM
09-15-2007, 10:04 AM
Yeah, I just checked out your log. I'm gonna run Epi (maybe stack with furz) in a couple months with torem PCT but sustain really got my interest. Anything new to report on how you feel with the sustain?
09-19-2007, 11:40 PM
I ran low doses of test last fall all the way to beginning of summer. Dropped the test and went to Epistane with Formastane until july. Then went to epistane and a little dermacrine. For the last 3 wks I have been running Sustain and can actually say I feel normal. Had maybe a week lag period but I think it works better than nolva or clomid ever has. My only thing is that I would like the price around 40 bones instead of 60! I recommend it to everybody.
09-20-2007, 01:41 AM
I was running Havoc and then Epistane intermittenly, and then I dropped Havoc completely after drawing my conclusion that Epistane reacted better with my body... I began megadosing X-Lean as well and I just started my Tea-3 (which I'll be taking forever) and Dermacrine. I'm running 4 pumps of Dermacrine in the morning and 4 at night so I'll finish off the Dermacrine the same time I finish the Epistane.
PCT: Dermacrine Sustain, toremifene citrate, X-Lean megadosed tapering down, and Retain 2 which I'll be running indefinitely (relora and 7-keto are perfectly fine and non-toxic long term)
I also have some topical 7-keto (Omega Sports Systematic 7)
After my PCT I have a REALLY sweet long term supplement plan that I am polishing up and will write down if anyone's interested. LOL (Probably not)... but I like the Tea-3 product. I take 2 caps/2x per day and I reduced my RPM dose to 1 cap, twice a day. The energy is smooth.
I'm seeing some sick results from my current regimen (especially megadosing the X-Lean) and my midsection is ripping up like a stack of bricks.
Is there any harm of running topical 7-keto during my 4 week PCT?
Freedom means nothing here.
09-20-2007, 09:51 PM
09-20-2007, 10:41 PM
I definitely do Travis. My abs are f*in chizzled like a sculpture now and getting better!
Freedom means nothing here.
09-20-2007, 11:00 PM
09-21-2007, 12:04 AM
Force of Green, id be interested to hear your long term supplement plan if you dont mind. I have the Dermacrine products aswell, that im going to start soon.
Im interested in mega dosing X-Lean too, i think i have high cortisol aswell, and just did a 24 hour urine cortisol test, and will know where i stand next week.
Can you give me the details on how much you took, for how long, and did you build up the dose,ect?
09-21-2007, 01:51 AM
I see a lot of really interesting products coming out from the wood-work... I think we all do. I'm sure everyone doesn't have a lot of funds to be dumping on products, but I'll post what I've done for my recomp and what I'll be taking as a continuous, long term stack.
Freedom means nothing here.
09-21-2007, 11:54 AM
09-21-2007, 12:47 PM
"(Contrary to popular believe, post cycle sexual dysfunction is often a result of PCT drugs such as clomid or nolva, not low testosterone)"
Definitely agree here.
As for Nolva raising estrogen..it lowers estradiol but raises estrone...ie a more favorable estrogen ratio for cancer treatment et al.
The only concern I'd have about running Sustain over a SERM during PCT is the lack of strong estrogen receptor binding in the breast tissue. There may be some with Sustain but SERMs provide rock solid insurance during a time when your hormonal millieu is often very prone to creating or agonizing gyno. For those of us with existing gyno..we need that peace of mind.
Other than that, I'd love to run Sustain with a SERM and well after the PCT period to see what it can do.
09-21-2007, 02:20 PM
Yes good point bioman.
But for those who aren’t susceptible to gyno, I try to keep them as far away from nolva or clomid as possible… just because of the whole progestin receptor up-regulation issue and ultimate increased sensitivity to getting gyno in the future if you ever decide to run a progestin like Deca or Tren… or perhaps any othe progestin derived pro-hormones of the day.
09-21-2007, 03:01 PM
I don't even use Nolva any more if I can avoid it. I feel blah on it and my skin starts to get "eaten up" so I can tell it's not the safest thing ever.
Toremifene on the other hand is like night and day. It works fast and there's zero sides except for lowering of libido while on...but all serms are going to have that potential.
Anywho, look forward to trying Sustain at some point. Go bug Sam at NP..there's growing interest from members wanting them to carry your products.
09-26-2007, 09:22 PM
Hey Force of Green, i did a 24 hour urine test for Cortisol, and i was in normal range, but in the upper normal range, so id like to lower it.
Should i use X-Lean or Retain 2?
Retain 2 seems like it offers everything X-Lean does plus more no?
10-17-2007, 04:41 PM
10-17-2007, 04:56 PM
Also, check into Sensoril. It's a patented, potent, and certified extract of Ashwaganda and it's amazing stuff. Add schizandra to the mix (also available by source naturals) and you'll feel like a new man after about 3-4 weeks.
Try this ultra effective, affordable protocol
1. Relora 1000 mg per day (250mg morning, 250mg afternoon, 500mg before bed)
2. Sensoril (Life Extensions optimized ashwaganda extract is very good and cheap!) 2 caps morning, 2 caps evening with meals
3. Source Naturals schizandra: 1 cap morning, 1 cap evening
4. *** Want some amazing anti-oxidant properties and a little absorption aid for your stack? Get Super Curcumin extract by Life Extension. Offers 500mg of curcumin and 5mg bioperine.
You'll have a killer stack on your hands that you can use ALL year round. You'll love it!
Freedom means nothing here.
10-23-2007, 06:26 PM
10-24-2007, 04:32 PM
I get the feeling that most of the board despises ATD's... but wouldnt running a low dose in the begining of a PCT program be benificial... Dont they raise test levels and take care of the abundance of estro? Dosing for a week or two, tapering down while Sustain starts to ramp up.
Just a thought
10-26-2007, 01:45 AM
10-26-2007, 02:06 AM
A couple days after I posted that, Nutraplanet started carrying NOW Relora. NOW is definitely a good brand Relora and the dosage is awesome as well. The recommended dose is 250mg, 3 times per day, however, NOW Relora is 300mg per cap. Considering that most of us are bigger guys, the 300mg, 3x per day will no doubt be perfect. You can take UP to, BUT NO MORE, than 1500mg per day, however, going above that will cause drowsiness and sedation. Don't exceed the recommended dose.
Freedom means nothing here.
10-26-2007, 04:54 PM
10-26-2007, 05:20 PM
10-26-2007, 06:21 PM
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