[Travis]

Okay, I wanted to post this in here as I think there is some debate on this issue. AND yes I am possibly suggesting that Sustain could be used in place of a SERM (nolva, torem, clomid, etc).

A SERM is used post cycle therapy to basically block the negative effects of estrogen while your hormone levels return to normal after discontinuing using a source of exogenous test (steroid, ph's).

Basically a SERM doesnt necessarily reduce estrogen but it blocks receptors from the negative side effects of high estrogen floating around in the body. This is taken from post cycle therapy.com explaining how Clomid works:

Clomid is capable of reacting with all of the tissues in the body that have estrogen receptors. It influences the way that the four hormones GnRH, FSH, LH and estradiol, relate and interrelate. It appears that Clomid fools the body into believing that the estrogen level is low. This altered feedback information causes the hypothalamus to make and release more gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which in turn causes the pituitary to make and release more FSH and LH. More follicle stimulating hormone and more luteinizing hormone should result in increased testosterone production.

Now Sustain, from my understanding is designed to "control estrogen" (with the phyto-al blend) while at the same time reducing/stopping negative effects of estrogen (with resveratrol).

So my question is a SERM still needed? The obvious bad things about SERMs are toxicity issues. Which could potentially make Sustain superior in post cycle therapy. What is everyones thoughts (and I know most here will be very partial to using SERMs).

[bearmeat]

SERMs, specifically clomiphene, have enormous amounts of clinical research illustrating their effectiveness in restoring HPTA function after harsh steroid cycles.

Though Sustain looks like a promising product (I intend to give it a run within a month or so) I would not substitute it when SERMs have the research showing that in the specific situation of steroid use, they allow recovery.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by bearmeat

SERMs, specifically clomiphene, have enormous amounts of clinical research illustrating their effectiveness in restoring HPTA function after harsh steroid cycles.

Though Sustain looks like a promising product (I intend to give it a run within a month or so) I would not substitute it when SERMs have the research showing that in the specific situation of steroid use, they allow recovery.

Just so I am clear you will be using a SERM + Sustain in your PCT?

I think that is probably the best option right now, and I agree there isnt as much data to support a product like sustain but I guess thats what I'm after....more opinions.

[thesinner]

The issue is simply that you're swimming in 'uncharted waters'.

Resveratrol is a great ER antagonist, but is still relatively new to the science community.

Has it been clinically shown to modulate ER's?
Yes.
Has it been clinically shown to increase testosterone?
Yes.
Has it been clinically shown to block ER's in breast tissues?
You betcha.
Has it been clinically shown to quickly return the body to homeostasis following a suppressive anabolic steroids cycle?
No.
Will it assist in returning the body to homeostasis following a steroids cycle?
Probably.
Is there any information comparing it to a SERM for use in returning the body to homeostasis after a suppressive anabolic steroids cycle?
No.

You're replacing a chemical that was designed specifically to block estrogen receptors, with a chemical found in grapes and peanuts that coincidentally has the ability to bind to ER-alpha and ER-beta without promoting an estrogenic effect.

[EasyEJL]

well again here tho, recall that SERMs were not designed with us in mind... so although in some ways they do manage to give the results we want, I hate looking at their side effect list (vaginal discharge anyone?). I am almost willing to place my testicles up for this, and do a regular cycle instead of a pulse in late october/early nov, and just use resveratrol as post cycle therapy. something like 500mg a day thru cycle, 1g/day last week of cycle, 2g a day following 2 weeks, 1g a day the 2 weeks after that. Of course, with a good serm handy just in case it doesnt work out

[thesinner]

I love getting those vaginal discharges after my cycle is over.

[EasyEJL]

Originally Posted by thesinner

I love getting those vaginal discharges after my cycle is over.

Don't forget the ovarian enlargement. I guess Amenorrhea is ok as a side effect (Absence or cessation of menstruation)

what confuses me still on nolva is this

NOLVADEX is well tolerated in males with breast cancer. Reports from the literature and case reports suggest that the safety profile of NOLVADEX in males is similar to that seen in women. Loss of libido and impotence have resulted in discontinuation of tamoxifen therapy in male patients. Also, in oligospermic males treated with tamoxifen, LH, FSH, testosterone and estrogen levels were elevated. No significant clinical changes were reported.

I mean crap, it raises estrogen ?? isn't that against the point?

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

Don't forget the ovarian enlargement. I guess Amenorrhea is ok as a side effect (Absence or cessation of menstruation)

what confuses me still on nolva is this



I mean crap, it raises estrogen ?? isn't that against the point?

SERM's are Estrogen Receptor Antagonists

Let's look at caffeine to get a better example of what I'm getting at:

Caffeine is an andrenergic Antagonist. What happens when you drink a crap load of coffee (caffeine)? It your epinephrine/norepinephrine levels go through the roof and you get all 'buzzed'. What happens later in the day? You crash like a airplane without wings. You're body lowers it's epinephrine/norepinephrine levels to compensate for the blocked receptors, and guess what, they're not blocked anymore.

[Primordial Perf]

Usually, the decision for someone to use Sustain over Clomid or Nolva is to avoid the side-effecs of these SERMs. I personally don’t use either clomid or nolva due to there extensive toxic profile. (liver toxic, ocular toxic, genotoxic, libido suppressing, ect)

Clomid and Nolva are synthetic estrogens that have super-estrogen effects, anti-estrogenic effects, and screwy DNA damaging effects depending on the bodily tissue and metabolite. I went through exhaustive research with these compounds, and the closer you look at them, the more damaging they appear.

Consider this – We are about to enter the 3th major generation of medical SERMS. Clomid and Nolva are first generation SERM’s with the worst side effect profile, toremifene and raloxifene are second generation, and bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene are 3rd generation. Each generation improves upon the previous generation by being less toxic. That should tell you something. I can post a full referenced write up on this.

Everyone who has replaced their typical SERMs with Sustain has been more than happy. So far, everyone claims to actually be recovering better with Sustain, compared to clomid or nolva. While I do believe Sustain to be equally effective for PCT purposes, I think people’s results are so positive because they are simply suffering from less side effects. (Contrary to popular believe, post cycle sexual dysfunction is often a result of PCT drugs such as clomid or nolva, not low testosterone)

-Pp

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Primordial Perf

Usually, the decision for someone to use Sustain over Clomid or Nolva is to avoid the side-effecs of these SERMs. I personally don’t use either clomid or nolva due to there extensive toxic profile. (liver toxic, ocular toxic, genotoxic, libido suppressing, ect)

Clomid and Nolva are synthetic estrogens that have super-estrogen effects, anti-estrogenic effects, and screwy DNA damaging effects depending on the bodily tissue and metabolite. I went through exhaustive research with these compounds, and the closer you look at them, the more damaging they appear.

Consider this – We are about to enter the 3th major generation of medical SERMS. Clomid and Nolva are first generation SERM’s with the worst side effect profile, toremifene and raloxifene are second generation, and bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene are 3rd generation. Each generation improves upon the previous generation by being less toxic. That should tell you something. I can post a full referenced write up on this.

Everyone who has replaced their typical SERMs with Sustain has been more than happy. So far, everyone claims to actually be recovering better with Sustain, compared to clomid or nolva. While I do believe Sustain to be equally effective for post cycle therapy purposes, I think people’s results are so positive because they are simply suffering from less side effects. (Contrary to popular believe, post cycle sexual dysfunction is often a result of PCT drugs such as clomid or nolva, not low testosterone)

-Pp

Nice post. I am basically asking this as I have an upcoming PCT. I have SERMs on hand but I am debating using them with the Sustain. I have used nolva before and had bloodwork taken afterwards that showed no signs of liver stress (albeit the bloodwork was approx one month after PCT). With that in mind is there any problem using both for a very effective PCT?

Im still debating. Perhaps I will run low dose nolva for a week or two in pct on top of the Sustain. The compounds I am using (Epidrol+Dermacrine) are not all that toxic or harsh to begin with.

[EasyEJL]

Originally Posted by Primordial Perf

and bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene are 3rd generation. Each generation improves upon the previous generation by being less toxic. That should tell you something. I can post a full referenced write up on this.

Since sourcing isn't allowed by AM rules, you can't be specific as to where in your answer, but have you seen these 3rd gen SERMs available without a prescription?

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

Since sourcing isn't allowed by AM rules, you can't be specific as to where in your answer, but have you seen these 3rd gen SERMs available without a prescription?

I don't think you can even get these by prescription yet.

Pharmacists use a special concept/method called Click Chemistry which enables them to rapidly design MANY different drugs of the same class. They are 99% sure of what's gonna happen with these drugs before they are ever even synthesized.


After they're created, they still need to be tested and evaluated before they can be put to use.

[EasyEJL]

Originally Posted by thesinner

I don't think you can even get these by prescription yet.

Pharmacists use a special concept/method called Click Chemistry which enables them to rapidly design MANY different drugs of the same class. They are 99% sure of what's gonna happen with these drugs before they are ever even synthesized.


After they're created, they still need to be tested and evaluated before they can be put to use.

I thought there was FDA approval on bazedoxifene, but looking back it was the provisionally approvable letter, back in april. the others are still in studies. pity.

I guess i'm back to deciding whether to play testicle roulette with resveratrol, or liver roulette with nolva