Sustain Alpha a good idea to use to help with Propecia Estrogen control?
- 01-17-2009, 02:29 AM
Sustain Alpha a good idea to use to help with Propecia Estrogen control?
Would Sustain Alpha be a good idea to use with Propecia, to help minimize or lower Estrogen levels? Or would Sustain Alpha further increase my Estrogen levels in combination with Propecia and be a bad idea? Basically would i have higher Estrogen levels with Propecia alone, or Propecia + Sustain Alpha?
- 01-17-2009, 02:35 AM
01-17-2009, 02:41 AM
Yes i know that , i that thats its obvious to people that Propecia lowers DHT, thats why people use it to stop hairloss.
Anyways Estrogen can increase on Propecia thats why im asking if Sustain Alpha is a good idea to use with it to lower Estrogen, or will it increase my Estrogen even more?
I really dont like using Estrogen lowering drugs if i dont have to, and i dont want my Testosterone levels sky high either.
01-17-2009, 03:22 AM
01-17-2009, 05:55 AM
I've been using it for exactly this for months (on and off).
My friend who had been using propecia for about 8 months at the time started coming down the gym with me again (after a long period travelling and being unhealthy) and I got him started on some sustain alpha too. I found it incredible how quickly he lost a lot of his "podge" and gained some muscle shape and size (i'm talking big changes in a few weeks... he was amazed) so whilst it is anecdotal I believe a lot of it must have been due to high estrogen which the sustain helped bring back in line. That would explain the rapid loss of fat/water retention around the mid section and man boobs...
Personally I find it to be a great way of mitigating the possible propecia drawbacks... I'll continue to use it for some time!
01-17-2009, 12:43 PM
Thanks, but im pretty sure men only need very little estrogen, like at the very bottom of the normal range,ect.
Ive read a few places online that said the ratio of Testosterone to Estrogen in young athletic males is 50:1, so im assuming DHT is included in that ratio as part of Testosterone.
I would LOVE to know what my Estrogen levels were when i was 15 - 20 years old. Im still under 10% bodyfat naturally without dieting or training, and im still hard and have bigger muscles now than i did before, but i am a bit softer now and holding some water because i got adrenal fatigue and it also messed with my thyroid givig me high Reverse T3 levels.
But i was always completely dry and ripped/muscular without ever touching a weight, training, or dieting. I was solid like a peice of steel. I never held a single bit of water ever.
I want to get this look back. Correct me if im wrong, but im guessing that i probabbly had lower Testosterone levels than i do now possibly, but i probabbly had higher DHT levels, and a lot lower Estrogen levels, along with my adrenals and thyroid being optimal. My Free T4 levels are good, but my Free T3 could use a little boost, and my Reverse T3 levels need to be a lot lower. If i lower my Estrogen levels my Free T3 levels will increase automatically.
My muscle are bigger now without even lifting weights since my Adrenal Fatigue, so im guessing either the following. My temperatures never reach 98.6 anymore since my adrenal fatigue, so it must be the Reverse T3 blocking my own T3 from working, my low Cortisol increasing my Testosterone levels, which more converts to Estrogen, so Estrogen slowing down my metabolism by binding to my Thyroid hormones, or the low Cortisol stopping my thyroid hormones from reaching the cells, and Cortisol is needed to carry thyroid hormones from the blood into the receptors.
Im on Cortef treating my Adrenal Fatigue, but my DHEA-S is also low, and i still have a bulkier look to me since the adrenal fatigue. I would have figured low DHEA-S means less conversion to estrogen.
My sex drive was also WAY higher. Im guessing i need some sort of DHT compound that will lower my Testosterone a bit, but also lower My Estrogen levels and increase my Free Testosterone.
But i cant do this as i want to go back on Propecia ( i ran out for 3 weeks ), and if i use DHT compounds i will loose my hair.
Do you guys think DHT is really a factor in this? Or is it simply having good Testosterone levels, low normal Estrogen levels, with high normal T3 levels?
Im 24 years old now BTW. Thanks!
01-17-2009, 01:01 PM
Thanks a lot for sharing that. So did you notice a softer appearance after staring Propecia? Did it make you hold any water, or change your agression or energy levels at all?
Did the Sustain Alpha harden up your physique? I would love if it were possible to have the rock hard, totally bone dry physique i had before, while using Propecia and blocking DHT, but i dont think its possible.
Ive read that DHT based drugs strip water from you, and harden up your physique, and that must be in part to there actions on lowering/antagonizing estrogen levels. I think they also surpress Testosterone levels a bit too, leaving less to convert into Estrogen. This is why they dont really make you gain weight, which i dont want to gain, but help to change your body composition and help with fatloss/water loss, and a better quality physique.
When we take Propecia, we lower DHT levels, which will increase Testosterone levels, and Estradiol levels by roughly 15%. This is already a bit of a slow down in metabolism because you dont have the DHT there to antagonize estrogen, but the actual increase in Estrogen can slighly slow down metabolsim, and cause some bloating and water retention.
Then lets say you use Sustain Alpha, okay it might lower your Estrogen levels or help balance them, but its going to increase your Testosterone levels, which will leave more to convert into etrogen, plus the increase in Testosterone itself can cause some water retention if you are blocking DHT at the same time with Propecia, right?
Ive read some people gain fat on Test cycles, thats why most dont use Test only cycles for cutting. Is this because of all the extra Test converting to Estrogen? Or is it because of the Test itself?
Is Estrogen the main culprit here when it comes to water retention, bloating, fat gain, softer appearance,ect? Or does DHT itself have properties that lean you out, make you dry, help with fatloss, muscle hardness,ect, that just lowering Estrogen levels with AI's doesnt have.
Otherwise you would see people getting the same results from Arimidex, or Letrozole, that they do with Masteron, Proviron, Winny, Primo, Anavar,ect, when it comes to leaning you out, muscle hardness, making you dry as a bone,ect.
Im really interested to know this ****!
01-18-2009, 08:27 AM
a lot of that is beyond my ability to answer to be honest... I know the basics but I wouldn't want to give any misinformation.
I started sustain and later threw in some DIM/IC3 pretty soon after starting propecia more as prevention than cure if you get what I mean. I haven't noticed any softening or fat gain like my friend did (although i must point out that while he was running fin on it's own, he also was relatively inactive and unhealthy which is the main reason he got out of shape).
I have good muscle hardness still (just over a year on fin now) and don't have any more fat or hold any more water than I did before really.
Give it a go in my opinion. 5 on 2 off and a bottle should last a month, which will be more than enough time for you to decide if it's helping you. I would recommend looking into some DIM/IC3 too if you haven't already.
01-18-2009, 09:22 PM
Yes, the DHT related compounds antagonize estrogen and perhaps reduce estrogen conversion by lowering testosterone production to a degree. DHT related compounds also encourage subcutaneous fat loss, so this is where a lot of the “hardening” effects come from.
The propecia will create problems for you despite lowering estrogen. Even if you took Sustain, or a stronger AI such as arimidex you wont be able to counter all the negative effects that propecia has on libido and body composition IMO.
Keep in mind, resveratrol is now being researched for its anti-obesity glucose control, anti-adipocyte effects… so this could explain the benefits that flyboy’s friend was noticing while on Sustain….. rather than an anti-estrogen effect which would be very weak from resveratrol.
01-18-2009, 11:38 PM
Hey Eric, yeah i thought so in regards to the DHT, thanks for solidifying that for me.
Well, i dont have anything to lose, so im going to give the Sustain a shot with Propecia just to see if it helps improve anything or makes me feel better in general. I didnt really get any sides from Propecia, But im pretty sure i would be harder or drying with higher DHT levels in my body.
01-18-2009, 11:39 PM
01-19-2009, 12:06 AM
01-19-2009, 12:36 AM
01-19-2009, 12:38 AM
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