Assistance work for DL

[James Fuller]

Alright so those that have followed my log know, my DL sucks compared to my other lifts. So far Ive been trying to do more speed work. Ive switched from sumo to conventional. just felt like i was more powerful in conventional. upped the weight i usually do SLDs with (minus my last workout), most of my back work is overhand/underhand rows. what else should i add/start doing? obviously my body mechanics are going to be different than most of yours. Im 5'2 and like most say, i built like a brick. so yea...any help or input is appreciated.​

 

[PaulBlack]

It looks from your log, you are squatting quite a bit more than DLing, yes?

I think speed DL's are okay, but they never made my max DL actually increase much. I had to do quite a bit of heavy 80%-95% for x5's x3's x2's x1's multi sets and deadlifting and from varying heights, and especially deficits, since I was a bit slow off the floor.

 

[James Fuller]

Im weak off the floor, really havent hit deficits as much as i was doing. need to start doing those more again. i have crappy bars for DL, so most of the time 75-85% feels like im lifting at 100%. but yes my squat is about 100lb more than my DL. Forgot that this log was pretty new. But most of my back work is heavy rows. I dont think ive done deficits at all since i started this log, which really isnt good. Ive only done block pulls a few times since this log started.

 

[Torobestia]

Time for a flow chart:

Weak off the floor often means the rep work you've done on deadlifts has involved too much touch and go and not enough resetting between reps.

If that's not the case, it could also mean that your form is a little off. The way some people set up sometimes their shoulders are forward or behind the bar, and that makes for poor leverages and often your hips will shoot up before your back and you'll just stiff leg the deadlift. There may be other problems with your form, too.

If neither of those are the case, and you have a real weakness off the floor, then deficit deadlifts and front squats should be important accessories for you. Speed deadlifts may be of use as well, and I personally would recommend alternating between straight weight and accommodating resistance for those.

I will say the fact you mention that 75-85% deadlifts feel like 100 hints at a problem with one of the first two issues I mentioned, that is a lack in starting strength/RFD or a form issue.

 

[PaulBlack]

Im weak off the floor, really havent hit deficits as much as i was doing. need to start doing those more again. i have crappy bars for DL, so most of the time 75-85% feels like im lifting at 100%.

Well, not sure what "crappy" bars are for DL's. I use a pretty stiff bar (not a DL bar, which can be bendy) myself and even then, if you pull from the pins in a rack, the start is even harder and trains the start well, since you get no bar flex, if that is what you are meaning!?

Toro has thrown out a few good points too.

But most of my back work is heavy rows.

Well, a row is not training the lower back, hams and leg muscles especially like a conventional or even a sumo would, so to try to gain DL power with rows, I can say (at least for my own self) it will not get me a heavy pull.
You are only going to be as strong as your weakest link. If that is the start, or your pos chain, you gotta put some work in to beef/strengthen it up some.

Bottom line, as I am not from the school of thought, to not train the dead to increase the dead like some are. I believe in heavy deadlifting at least once per week for low reps and multi sets and then perhaps a second lighter day for speeds, or even on your squat day, some other pos. chain assistances.
YMMV.
BTW, nice strong squatting in your log there too dude.

 

[James Fuller]

When i do my speed work its touch and go. When im just repping or going heavy, everything is reset for the initial pull. I dont have any videos of me deadlifting from the side, so ill have to take some when i hit up deads this week.

Crappy bars for me are stiff bars when im DLing. Rows have helped my posture in the movements. I can SLD/Romanian around 60-65% of my deadlift 1rm. and im super weak on my good mornings and front squats. dont really do those to much, so gonna have to up that.

I just dont see why my squat shot up so much and my deadlift didnt really advance hardly at all.

 

[PaulBlack]

I just dont see why my squat shot up so much and my deadlift didnt really advance hardly at all.

Well judging from your log vids, your torso is quite upright when you squat. I am going to guess (you said you have short arms) you've got to bend down to get a hold of the DL. So your lower back is getting more into the dead than when you squat. Also, if your legs are shorter than average, that can be a great squat lever, but if your torso is a bit longer, the lever for a conventional dead, gets the bar farther away from the body and thus makes it a little tougher.
Personally, judging by the power in your BP and your squat, IMO, you just need a bit more time pulling, to bring that dead up to nearer your other 2 lifts.

 

[Torobestia]

Well judging from your log vids, your torso is quite upright when you squat. I am going to guess (you said you have short arms) you've got to bend down to get a hold of the DL. So your lower back is getting more into the dead than when you squat. Also, if your legs are shorter than average, that can be a great squat lever, but if your torso is a bit longer, the lever for a conventional dead, gets the bar farther away from the body and thus makes it a little tougher.
Personally, judging by the power in your BP and your squat, IMO, you just need a bit more time pulling, to bring that dead up to nearer your other 2 lifts.

Good calls.

 

[James Fuller]

Thanks alot guys for the input and guidance. Its an on going learning process and journey. just gotta keep finding my weaknesses and work on them so they can become strengths. Ill post vids in my logs of my deads hopefully tomorrow. get a few different angles. so if your tracking my log feel free to offer any advice or input. also if you see that my routine is getting to stale tell me. sometimes i stick with whats comfortable and what i know and dont always change it up when i should

 

[Rodja]

When i do my speed work its touch and go. When im just repping or going heavy, everything is reset for the initial pull. I dont have any videos of me deadlifting from the side, so ill have to take some when i hit up deads this week.

Crappy bars for me are stiff bars when im DLing. Rows have helped my posture in the movements. I can SLD/Romanian around 60-65% of my deadlift 1rm. and im super weak on my good mornings and front squats. dont really do those to much, so gonna have to up that.

I just dont see why my squat shot up so much and my deadlift didnt really advance hardly at all.

There's your problem.

 

[James Fuller]

[video=youtube;IAEXqx5fCfc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAEXqx5fCfc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUaja2fEycqrykkBC0RcW7Rg[/video]

 

[PaulBlack]

Your form looks pretty darn good to me.
What I might add is, I see you start with a bit of foot flare, (which I believe helps with lock out more than breaking off the floor). Don't know if you would want to experiment with a bit of different foot placement, or more straightforward stance!?
I can see by your build why you have a good squat, as it does look to me like you have more of a build for that life. You seem to have to get your hips kinda low, to get into your conventional position.

 

[James Fuller]

I think i flare my feet because i used to do it when i used sumo. no real reason other than that i think. ill try feet straight forward next time i dl.

 

[PaulBlack]

I had loaded up 359 on the bar for the box pulls originally and couldnt even budge the freakin thing. I think lower back strength is super weak is one of my biggest problems with deadlift. Correct me if im wrong.

Perhaps a good guess. I know you have a good squat but you're pretty upright squatting (me on the other hand being taller, lean some at bottom) and most likely are only getting some static strength carryover in the low back, upper hips/glutes & lumbars. Static is okay for stability, but I think one still needs "flexion and extension" of that area, especially if you are going to pull conventional.

*Bent leg deads
RDL's
SLDL's
GM's
Hypers

Also, starting from 4" blocks might sound easier to many, but depending on where your transition zone really starts (to get out over the knees) a pull from varying heights can be tough. I know when I do #600+ from say 15" off the floor, it is a bitch at first getting that bar moving, especially off the pins. I almost wonder if it is as hard at some heights or harder, than off the floor.

* I am not from the Vince Anello school of not doing the deadlift to increase the deadlift. I believe in lots of heavy regular pulling.

 

[Joe_P]

If your back is weak and you are weak off the floor pull standing on a 2-3" block, SLDL's and SLDL's standing on a 2-3 inch block. Do your GM's strict for a while, and do not dot do them so they are hip/glute exercises, but low back/exercises. Reverse Hypers, Hypers with bands are all good options. When I was a in my mid 20's I could not pull 300 lbs when I started, when I stopped lifting a few years ago in my early to mid 30's I was approaching a 700 lb deadlift. Those were the exercises I used and I had a very very weak lower back.

 

[James Fuller]

strict as in dont have my hips move behind the center line of me feet?

 

[Joe_P]

strict as in dont have my hips move behind the center line of me feet?

On elitefts there was a series of videos on the deadlift. Check them out. One was the GM. He uses a SS Bar to to do them but when I do them strict I use a regular bar.

 

[PaulBlack]

Don't overthink it. Just get down and dirty with loving deadlifts and a few assistances for awhile...!

 

[James Fuller]

yea thats def going to take a while. Not only is it my worst lift, its a lift i actually hate. But need it to get up around the 500s so i can be competitive at a national level

 

[PaulBlack]

Not only is it my worst lift, its a lift i actually hate.

I'm guessing once you see a good bump, it will become a more favorable lift.

Not sure how you can expose the lift, like Arnold did his calves in public cutting his pants, (true!??! who knows) making them a point of ridicule for himself, then they became one of his better body parts by hammering away.

I'll keep stopping by your log and poke you in the eye to keep at them, HAHAHA...!

You'll get there, just have some patience.