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Deadlift question for 5/3/1 program

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    Deadlift question for 5/3/1 program


    I am going to be starting 531 next week. So this week I have been testing maxes to determine starting points. So for deads I don't use straps. My question is concerning starting weight based on which grip I use. Using a double overhand, tonight I did a set of 5 reps @ 275. I did have to reset my grip after each rep, but the set felt good. 275-285 is about my max using double overhand. Using a mix grip, left under and right over, I pulled a single 315 then a single 335.

    I feel good about the 335 max to start with, but I need too work on my left hand grip overhand style. I've tried using the opposite mix grip but I might as well stick with double over hand.

    My main question is should I start my program at a lower weight that I can use a double overhand or say screw it and work with the mixed grip and higher weight? I know if you use a mix grip, its best. To alternate which is over and which is under regularly. It seems pretty rudimentary, but looking for opinions. FWIW, Im looking at geting some Fat Grips in the next couple weeks and realize utilizing those will probably lower my working sets initially.

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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    I am going to be starting 531 next week. So this week I have been testing maxes to determine starting points. So for deads I don't use straps. My question is concerning starting weight based on which grip I use. Using a double overhand, tonight I did a set of 5 reps @ 275. I did have to reset my grip after each rep, but the set felt good. 275-285 is about my max using double overhand. Using a mix grip, left under and right over, I pulled a single 315 then a single 335.

    I feel good about the 335 max to start with, but I need too work on my left hand grip overhand style. I've tried using the opposite mix grip but I might as well stick with double over hand.

    My main question is should I start my program at a lower weight that I can use a double overhand or say screw it and work with the mixed grip and higher weight? I know if you use a mix grip, its best. To alternate which is over and which is under regularly. It seems pretty rudimentary, but looking for opinions. FWIW, Im looking at geting some Fat Grips in the next couple weeks and realize utilizing those will probably lower my working sets initially.
    Perhaps there is not as much difference as you think based on the numbers you gave. If 275 is your double overhand 5-rep max that would give you an estimated max of 320. If your over-under grip 1 rep max is 335 that would give you an estimated 5 rep. max of 285. That is only a 10lb. difference.

    Keep in mind, the highest weight you should be using for your 5:3:1 is more or less around a 5-rep max weight. You have the option of running a max effort week after the first three mesocycles, but I prefer to go into my deload and then start another cycle instead. I believe Wendler also advocates starting on the lighter side and working into the cycle progressively rather than letting ego dictate your numbers. For example: you run your first week of 5:5:5 and on your dead's you are able to hit 14 reps on your final set. You will probably want to jump your next mesocycle weight on deads more than you had previously calculated. This happened to me on my second cycle of 5:3:1. I think I hit 16 reps on my first mesocycle of deads. Needless to say I had a fairly sizeable jump on deads in my next mesocycle.

    Best of luck!
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    I see what you're saying. But I think my left hand strength drops off fairly quickly after about 280-290. For some reason I didn't push the double overhand when lifting tonight. I did a double of 275, then switched to over under for my singles. Maybe I should have but I knew I could get 315 and wanted to push beyond that. It's been a while since I have gone real heavy on deads so I wanted to see where I'm at. I just did my spreadsheets for 12 months, so even if I start conservatively, I like what my numbers will look like in a year. I have been up and down on my weights for a while nursing a tweeked elbow, so I want to make some foward progress.
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    I would stick with the over/under grip, training long enough and heavy enough is going to eventually strengthen your grip regardless. Ultimately the deadlift is being utilized fro more than just your grip strength.

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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    I see what you're saying. But I think my left hand strength drops off fairly quickly after about 280-290. For some reason I didn't push the double overhand when lifting tonight. I did a double of 275, then switched to over under for my singles. Maybe I should have but I knew I could get 315 and wanted to push beyond that. It's been a while since I have gone real heavy on deads so I wanted to see where I'm at. I just did my spreadsheets for 12 months, so even if I start conservatively, I like what my numbers will look like in a year. I have been up and down on my weights for a while nursing a tweeked elbow, so I want to make some foward progress.
    Start with what is comfortable for you with the weight and make sure your form is solid. Alot of people get really sloppy with deads as the weight goes up. If I can't keep my form fairly solid I won't go up in weight.

    Dang 12 months! That is some serious planning. I think you'll like the 5/3/1. It threw me off at first because of the minimal number of exercises and the lower volume, but rest assured that if you follow it right and are eating well you will get stronger. I finished out last year doing HST (hypertrophy specific training) and my workout partner and struggled to keep the training under 1 1/2 hrs. alot of days; with 5/3/1 its 45 minutes tops. It should really help with that elbow; the lower volume doesn't take as much of a toll on the joints and allows you to really focus on those core lifts.

    I agree with Ryansm; use the over/under grip. You don't want to have grip be your limiting factor because then you aren't training your back and legs to their potential.
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    Thanks for the responses. I will just do the over and under grip and maybe work on switching on the lighter sets to get the hang of using the right under hand. I'm looking forward to it. I like basic programs and the older I get, the less toll the better. Plus I will be lifting before work in the morning so the lower volume will be a plus that early.
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    I love 5/3/1 and like the other guys i would go with the over/under grip. Also as far as your left hand goes, with all the db rowing, hanging leg raises, pull ups and everything else you do you'll really see and feel your grip strength increase...... so in a couple 4 week blocks I'd be willing to say that your grip won't even be an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nman View Post
    I love 5/3/1 and like the other guys i would go with the over/under grip. Also as far as your left hand goes, with all the db rowing, hanging leg raises, pull ups and everything else you do you'll really see and feel your grip strength increase...... so in a couple 4 week blocks I'd be willing to say that your grip won't even be an issue.
    Just keep going over/under and eventually you're grip will catch up. You can also hang from a pull-up bar with a towel wrapped around it. The increased girth of the wrapped bar will do wonders for your grip strength.
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    maybe try a double overhand hook grip, i know layne norton uses it and pulled a 700 dead.
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    I used to always do double overhand grip with or without straps, but I found for some reason it places more stress on the back so I switched to Over/under grip no straps and my back problems started going away and are now just about gone. I honestly don't see the appeal in double overhand grip anymore since over/under seems much more controlled and if your really worried about wrist strength you can always do a separate exercise for it. Hope this helps...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm View Post
    I would stick with the over/under grip, training long enough and heavy enough is going to eventually strengthen your grip regardless. Ultimately the deadlift is being utilized fro more than just your grip strength.
    agree
    ACSM-CPT
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    As a quick update I have been using double overhand up to my set of 305 or so. Usually on a set of 3. Then for sets over that I use mixed grip. I also have been using some fat gripz on other exercises that I think has been helping as well. The only thing I use straps on is heavy shrugs.
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