[jamze7417]

Hey, so i finished up my PCT about 1.5 months ago for an Epi cycle 20/30/30/40 , and everything seemed fine, Up until about a week back, i noticed something was going on under my left nipple. its not a single bump but more like hardened glands or something, theres like a couple ripples. There not huge by any means but they wernt as noticable during the cycle and now its starting to hurt a little bit. I dont know if its is "gyno per say" but either way, i figured it might be a good idea to hear wat yall have to say. I have been planning an H drol cycle 5 week recomp (50/75/75/100/100) in about 3 weeks. I have clomid letro and nolva in my weapons depot... lol

Heres my options:
A. Suck up the pain, unless the it gets to be a bit lump the pain doesnt really bother me unless something pushes against it. Basically ignore it, Go thorugh with the cycle and then combat it in my hdrol PCT with the letro and nolva...
B. Start a low dose regimen (probably nolva 20mg) for aobut 2 weeks, so if i see any improvment) and postpone the cycle.
C. Start a low dose nolva for a couple weeks, take a week off and then start the Hdrol.

What do you guys would think would be the best plan of attack. The pain doesnt really bother me unless it gets pushed on hard. Im not freaking out about it or anything, i know it comes with the territory im just wondering what you guys think would be the best route. I would preferably not worsen the situation ya know. Any help would be Tight. Thanks!


Oh btw, 6'2 215, 23 yrs old, lifting seriosloy 4 years.

[jamze7417]

anyone??

[futurepilot]

option B. Figure out what going on before you make it worse.

[jamze7417]

ok, if i were to go with B, i have clomid nolva and letro, what what you recomend i use, and dosing protocol? I appreciate your advice

[futurepilot]

No prob, im sure some else will chime in to eventually, but as as far as what I would do.

Nolva 40mgs 1 wk.
Nolva 20mgs untill no more sensitivity, could be 2 wks, could be 4.

After you feel comfortable dropping the Nolva, throw in that Letro. .75mg/.5mg/.25mg (3wks)

The nolva should take care of any issues, then the letro will prevent any rebound and take care of any estro you still got floating around.

You can adjust the letro doses as you see fit, like if .75mg doesnt seem like enough bump it too 1mg, or if Xmg turns out too be too dry, drop it down etc.

it may be overkill but you've got all the time in the world too run another cycle, but only one chance to prevent whatever you have from turning into permanent manboobs.

[IRON4LIFE]

Get on letro as quick as you can and try and reverse that bastard...nolva does nothing for gyno

From another reputable steroid expert(CBINO): gyno reversal protocol:
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.
Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

[delsolrob]

some good things to check out

Getting rid of gyno: What worked for me

If You Think You Have Gyno: Click Here

Gyno Concerns: STOP!

[delsolrob]

also, DON'T start a new cycle if you're really suffering from gyno!

also, if you run letro then be carefull because your joints are probably gonna dry up!

[IRON4LIFE]

Originally Posted by delsolrob

also, DON'T start a new cycle if you're really suffering from gyno!

also, if you run letro then be carefull because your joints are probably gonna dry up!

solid heads up delsolrob...letro will dry you out pretty bad and kill your sex drive if you dont watch it....i guess you have to weight out the cost/benefits of getting rid of gyno

i can tell you from personal experience with true AAS induced gyno...it ****ing sucks, you spend alot of your time consumed with feeling it, looking at it, worrying its getting worse...it sucks and its consumes you...i know i would do about anything to get rid of mine----planning surgery sometime in the future

anyways good luck with it bro...wish u the best

[jamze7417]

thanks for the info guys, yeah ill start letro when i get home. As far as killing the sex drive.... Will that come back pretty quickly once you get off of it?

[futurepilot]

Originally Posted by IRON4LIFE

nolva does nothing for gyno

Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

slawrence@cheo.on.ca

OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifene in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.

STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).

RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.

CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.

PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[IRON4LIFE]

Originally Posted by futurepilot

Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

slawrence@cheo.on.ca

OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifene in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.

STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).

RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.

CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.

PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

it may help with pubescent gyno but it does nothing to reverse aas induced gyno...trust me ive done years of research on this and have tried multiple compounds, nolva being one of them and it does nothing...letro has been the only compound that has even sightly reduced it.

[IRON4LIFE]

From Cbino's( gyno guru) thread at steroid.com:

"This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP."

Ive followed his protocol and it helps...many people have reported complete reversal by following this...its just my opinion on how best to deal with gyno...

[Nolbandet102]

Hardened ripples that hurt does not sound like gyno to me. This sounds more like pectoral muscle fibers that are irritated. I could be wrong as I am just guessing based on your description. You should definitly not take any hormones anytime soon though if your worried. First check the same place on your other pec and see if you feel the same thing. Alot of people think they have gyno when they really don't. If after checking you still believe you have gyno then either follow the letro dosing protocol above or go see your doctor. Once again do not take any hormones untill you have established exactly what is going on and then subsequently treat the problem.

[IRON4LIFE]

Originally Posted by Nolbandet102

Hardened ripples that hurt does not sound like gyno to me. This sounds more like pectoral muscle fibers that are irritated. I could be wrong as I am just guessing based on your description. You should definitly not take any hormones anytime soon though if your worried. First check the same place on your other pec and see if you feel the same thing. Alot of people think they have gyno when they really don't. If after checking you still believe you have gyno then either follow the letro dosing protocol above or go see your doctor. Once again do not take any hormones untill you have established exactly what is going on and then subsequently treat the problem.

solid advice...you defiantly don't want to try and self medicate something that actually isnt an issue....if its just pain, it may not be gyno but be aware that when gyno( the hard glandular lumps) start forming, there is usually pain and itching associated with it