1 month post epi PCT, Pain in Nips... Planned Hdrol Cyc in 3 weeks Plan of Action???

jamze7417

jamze7417

New member
Awards
0
Hey, so i finished up my PCT about 1.5 months ago for an Epi cycle 20/30/30/40 , and everything seemed fine, Up until about a week back, i noticed something was going on under my left nipple. its not a single bump but more like hardened glands or something, theres like a couple ripples. There not huge by any means but they wernt as noticable during the cycle and now its starting to hurt a little bit. I dont know if its is "gyno per say" but either way, i figured it might be a good idea to hear wat yall have to say. I have been planning an H drol cycle 5 week recomp (50/75/75/100/100) in about 3 weeks. I have clomid letro and nolva in my weapons depot... lol

Heres my options:
A. Suck up the pain, unless the it gets to be a bit lump the pain doesnt really bother me unless something pushes against it. Basically ignore it, Go thorugh with the cycle and then combat it in my hdrol PCT with the letro and nolva...
B. Start a low dose regimen (probably nolva 20mg) for aobut 2 weeks, so if i see any improvment) and postpone the cycle.
C. Start a low dose nolva for a couple weeks, take a week off and then start the Hdrol.

What do you guys would think would be the best plan of attack. The pain doesnt really bother me unless it gets pushed on hard. Im not freaking out about it or anything, i know it comes with the territory im just wondering what you guys think would be the best route. I would preferably not worsen the situation ya know. Any help would be Tight. Thanks!


Oh btw, 6'2 215, 23 yrs old, lifting seriosloy 4 years.
 

futurepilot

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
option B. Figure out what going on before you make it worse.
 
jamze7417

jamze7417

New member
Awards
0
ok, if i were to go with B, i have clomid nolva and letro, what what you recomend i use, and dosing protocol? I appreciate your advice
 

futurepilot

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
No prob, im sure some else will chime in to eventually, but as as far as what I would do.

Nolva 40mgs 1 wk.
Nolva 20mgs untill no more sensitivity, could be 2 wks, could be 4.

After you feel comfortable dropping the Nolva, throw in that Letro. .75mg/.5mg/.25mg (3wks)

The nolva should take care of any issues, then the letro will prevent any rebound and take care of any estro you still got floating around.

You can adjust the letro doses as you see fit, like if .75mg doesnt seem like enough bump it too 1mg, or if Xmg turns out too be too dry, drop it down etc.

it may be overkill but you've got all the time in the world too run another cycle, but only one chance to prevent whatever you have from turning into permanent manboobs.
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Get on letro as quick as you can and try and reverse that bastard...nolva does nothing for gyno

From another reputable steroid expert(CBINO): gyno reversal protocol:
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.
 
delsolrob

delsolrob

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
also, DON'T start a new cycle if you're really suffering from gyno!

also, if you run letro then be carefull because your joints are probably gonna dry up!
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
also, DON'T start a new cycle if you're really suffering from gyno!

also, if you run letro then be carefull because your joints are probably gonna dry up!

solid heads up delsolrob...letro will dry you out pretty bad and kill your sex drive if you dont watch it....i guess you have to weight out the cost/benefits of getting rid of gyno

i can tell you from personal experience with true AAS induced gyno...it ****ing sucks, you spend alot of your time consumed with feeling it, looking at it, worrying its getting worse...it sucks and its consumes you...i know i would do about anything to get rid of mine----planning surgery sometime in the future

anyways good luck with it bro...wish u the best
 
jamze7417

jamze7417

New member
Awards
0
thanks for the info guys, yeah ill start letro when i get home. As far as killing the sex drive.... Will that come back pretty quickly once you get off of it?
 

futurepilot

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
nolva does nothing for gyno
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

[email protected]

OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifene in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.

STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).

RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.

CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.

PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

[email protected]

OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifene in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.

STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).

RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.

CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.

PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


it may help with pubescent gyno but it does nothing to reverse aas induced gyno...trust me ive done years of research on this and have tried multiple compounds, nolva being one of them and it does nothing...letro has been the only compound that has even sightly reduced it.
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
From Cbino's( gyno guru) thread at steroid.com:

"This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP."

Ive followed his protocol and it helps...many people have reported complete reversal by following this...its just my opinion on how best to deal with gyno...
 
Nolbandet102

Nolbandet102

Member
Awards
0
Hardened ripples that hurt does not sound like gyno to me. This sounds more like pectoral muscle fibers that are irritated. I could be wrong as I am just guessing based on your description. You should definitly not take any hormones anytime soon though if your worried. First check the same place on your other pec and see if you feel the same thing. Alot of people think they have gyno when they really don't. If after checking you still believe you have gyno then either follow the letro dosing protocol above or go see your doctor. Once again do not take any hormones untill you have established exactly what is going on and then subsequently treat the problem.
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Hardened ripples that hurt does not sound like gyno to me. This sounds more like pectoral muscle fibers that are irritated. I could be wrong as I am just guessing based on your description. You should definitly not take any hormones anytime soon though if your worried. First check the same place on your other pec and see if you feel the same thing. Alot of people think they have gyno when they really don't. If after checking you still believe you have gyno then either follow the letro dosing protocol above or go see your doctor. Once again do not take any hormones untill you have established exactly what is going on and then subsequently treat the problem.


solid advice...you defiantly don't want to try and self medicate something that actually isnt an issue....if its just pain, it may not be gyno but be aware that when gyno( the hard glandular lumps) start forming, there is usually pain and itching associated with it
 

futurepilot

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
From Cbino's( gyno guru) thread at steroid.com:
Firtly anyone calling themselves a "guru" is suspect, second Nolvadex is prescribed by doctors up to 80mgs ED.

And letro is merely an AI, Nolva/Ralox work through different means in the body.

Note to OP: I would not put faith in anyone who claims an AI removed their gyno, that is about reliable as someone who claims that epi/havoc got rid of their gyno.

Using an AI may create an environment that reduces estrogenic sides, which may seem to clear up your case of "gyno", but Nolva, based on my personal experience, is the only thing that gets rid of lumps.
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Firtly anyone calling themselves a "guru" is suspect, second Nolvadex is prescribed by doctors up to 80mgs ED.

And letro is merely an AI, Nolva/Ralox work through different means in the body.

Note to OP: I would not put faith in anyone who claims an AI removed their gyno, that is about reliable as someone who claims that epi/havoc got rid of their gyno.

Using an AI may create an environment that reduces estrogenic sides, which may seem to clear up your case of "gyno", but Nolva, based on my personal experience, is the only thing that gets rid of lumps.

guru was just a term that i threw out there..the guys isn't a self proclaimed guru..he just knows his **** and he comes from a very reputable steroid source(steroid.com)...im not gonna waste my time arguing with you about this...you know what works for you and i know what didnt work for me...i gave my opinion on how to get rid of gyno based on what other knowledgeable bber's have said...i could give two shits what the guy uses for his gyno, i was just interested in passing on what ive learned about gyno reversal
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Not about Letro but Arimidex(an AI)

Not about Letro but Arimidex( an AI)

Treatment of Pubertal Gynecomastia with the Specific Aromatase Inhibitor Anastrozole
Felix G. Riepe, Inka Baus, Stephanie Wiest, Nils Krone, Wolfgang G. Sippell, Carl-Joachim Partsch

Division of Pediatric Endocrinology, Department of Paediatrics, Christian-Albrechts-Universität Kiel, Kiel, Germany

Address of Corresponding Author

Horm Res 2004;62:113-118 (DOI: 10.1159/000079882)

goto top of page Key Words

* Anastrozole
* Gynecomastia, pubertal

goto top of page Abstract

Gynecomastia can be detected in up to 70% of boys during puberty and in about one third of adult males. An imbalance of estrogen to androgen tissue levels is believed to be the major reason for the development of gynecomastia; as a result most medical treatments so far have tried to lower the estrogen level. Five boys with pubertal gynecomastia and breast tenderness were treated for 6 months with the selective aromatase inhibitor anastrozole. Initial plasma levels of estradiol (E2), testosterone (T), androstenedione, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) and gonadotropins were normal. DHEA-S showed a significant rise during treatment. T and androstenedione showed no significant change during treatment. E2 decreased with therapy, although to no statistically significant extent. The E2/T ratio decreased significantly during the treatment. Breast size decreased in 4 out of 5 patients, and in 1 of these 4 boys glandular breast tissue disappeared completely. The longer the duration of gynecomastia before anastrozole administration, the smaller was the reduction of breast size. Breast tenderness was resolved in all boys within 4 weeks. No adverse effects were recorded. Since the aim of medical treatment is the total disappearance of breast tissue, anastrozole, as previous aromatase inhibitors, is of limited effect. However, anastrozole seems to be of benefit for the treatment of tenderness in gynecomastia and for patients in whom surgery is particularly risky. However, as spontaneous disappearance of pubertal gynecomastia is common, further double-blinded, placebo-controlled trials are necessary before a definite conclusion can be drawn about the effectiveness and the side effects of this therapy.

Copyright © 2004 S. Karger AG, Basel
 

futurepilot

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Since the aim of medical treatment is the total disappearance of breast tissue, anastrozole, as previous aromatase inhibitors, is of limited effect
thank you for further proving my point.:thumbsup:
 
rubberring

rubberring

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I mentioned in another thread that I had delayed gyno from using Havoc/Epi. Yes, it was gyno... hard,painful lumps and a lot of puffiness. Using a SERM did nothing. I started using Letro on July 11, using the dosing protocol posted earlier in this thread. Less than 3 weeks later, it is absolutely gone. Letro did destroy my libido and dry my joints a bit, but it got rid of the gyno. It seems that if you catch it ASAP, you can use a strong AI to reverse it, and then utilize a SERM in tapered dosages for a few weeks thereafter.

That's my story. Hands down, Letro has worked for me. I'm not advising you to go my route, but just take my experience for what it's worth.

To the OP: I would DEFINITELY avoid another cycle. Take care of the gyno NOW. The couple of pounds you might gain from H-drol won't be worth further imbalancing your hormones and possibly solidifying your gyno symptoms.
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
from my first hand experience with true injectable steroid gyno..which I do have have....nolva has not worked and letro has...

On a side note, talk with any gyno surgeon or dr and they will tell you that the only true way to get rid of all of it is through surgery
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
I mentioned in another thread that I had delayed gyno from using Havoc/Epi. Yes, it was gyno... hard,painful lumps and a lot of puffiness. Using a SERM did nothing. I started using Letro on July 11, using the dosing protocol posted earlier in this thread. Less than 3 weeks later, it is absolutely gone. Letro did destroy my libido and dry my joints a bit, but it got rid of the gyno. It seems that if you catch it ASAP, you can use a strong AI to reverse it, and then utilize a SERM in tapered dosages for a few weeks thereafter.

That's my story. Hands down, Letro has worked for me. I'm not advising you to go my route, but just take my experience for what it's worth.

To the OP: I would DEFINITELY avoid another cycle. Take care of the gyno NOW. The couple of pounds you might gain from H-drol won't be worth further imbalancing your hormones and possibly solidifying your gyno symptoms.

glad to hear it helped... your a lucky individual...i being young and immature at the time, waited way to long after my gyno set in to fully reverse it...letro did help a ton to reduce it but never fully got rid of it...nolva did jack for me also...glad to hear others had similar results
 
rubberring

rubberring

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Btw futurepilot, I think your strategy would make more sense if the issue was pubertal gyno. SERM(s) could then be used over a much longer timeframe to treat the problem. I think with AAS-induced gyno, hitting it with a strong AI may very well alleviate the condition BEFORE the lumps have a chance to harden.
 

futurepilot

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I think that with AAS-induced gyno, hitting it with a strong AI alleviates the condition BEFORE the lumps have a chance to harden.
Thats what i was trying to get at earlier

Using an AI may create an environment that reduces estrogenic sides, which may seem to clear up your case of "gyno", but Nolva, based on my personal experience, is the only thing that gets rid of lumps.
 
rubberring

rubberring

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
IRON: Yeah, I'm extremely surprised at how well the Letro has worked for me in such a short time. It makes me feel like crap, but I'm looking forward to starting Toremifene in a few days and then tapering down for a few weeks.

I had previously done a couple of Havoc/Epi cycles over the past 1.5 years and had never had an issue. I always used a SERM for 3 weeks as PCT, and never noticed any estrogenic symptoms. I wasn't so lucky this time. I theorize that suppressing estrogen through both the cycles (assuming Havoc/Epi do have SERM-like qualities) and through PCT several times in less than 18 months finally caught up with me. I also think now that Havoc/Epi have been out for some time now, we'll continue to see more cases of delayed gyno due to repeated cycles.
 
rubberring

rubberring

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Thats what i was trying to get at earlier
Gotcha. I think where we differ in opinion is that I saw zero benefit from taking a SERM when I first noticed the lumps/sensitivity. In my opinion, the OP would probably be wasting his time with a SERM right now. In fact, taking ATD or 6-OXO would probably be a better option if he doesn't have immediate access to Letro.

I think everyone's input has been productive to this thread.
 
monsterbox

monsterbox

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
aren't males supposed to have gland behind their nipples? they just aren't supposed to be hard and painful but you can feel them behind your nipples?
 
jamze7417

jamze7417

New member
Awards
0
Hey guys, i appreacitae all the input its been very informative... I started letro last friday, ramping up Im now at 2.5. Its seems to have knocked the pain down, lumps seem a little smaller, well ahve to see. But F*CK This stuff is killing my joints... i may ramp down to 1mg instead of 2.5 and see if that helps...
 
IRON4LIFE

IRON4LIFE

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
aren't males supposed to have gland behind their nipples? they just aren't supposed to be hard and painful but you can feel them behind your nipples?

Mammary glands exist in both sexes, but are rudimentary until puberty when, in females, they begin to develop in response to ovarian hormones. Estrogen promotes formation, whereas testosterone inhibits it.
 
rubberring

rubberring

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Hey guys, i appreacitae all the input its been very informative... I started letro last friday, ramping up Im now at 2.5. Its seems to have knocked the pain down, lumps seem a little smaller, well ahve to see. But F*CK This stuff is killing my joints... i may ramp down to 1mg instead of 2.5 and see if that helps...
I hear ya... cissus and higher doses of fish oil have been my best friends lately.
 

Similar threads


Top